Who is renewing Real Secrets?

[erdnasephile]

I'd hate to be the person who's never watched Psycho of Sixth Sense and seen this thread first.

Sixth Sense... they revealed the so-called surprise already in the movie trailer: -"I see dead people", says the kid and looks straight at Bruce Willis. One would have to be rather thick not to instantly figure out the ending. Rather pointless to watch the actual movie after that trailer.

I guess I'm really thick--I never saw it coming.

[Bill Mullins]

My iPhone . . . is currently making capitilization erratic. So, I figured if it worked for ee Cummings, and it's apparently the rage with the kids today ..

Get Archy the cockroach to help.

[Richard Kaufman]

Ah, yes, Archy and Mehitabel, a favorite of Gene Maze.

[Matthew Field]

Archy and Mehitabel -- also a favorite of mine.

[PapaG]

But maybe you will answer the question alec is afraid to: given no one is required to join, and there is a money back guarantee so their is no one to protect, what good comes of exposing the material paid for by others, others who are having fun performing tricks not google-able by every Tom dick and papag with a magic cafe account?

I have no reason to doubt, taking the post at face value, that the person who originally posted was p!ssed off with what he got for his money, believed that the secrecy rule was conning people into signing up, thought people should know and, given his level of contempt for the whole thing, didn't feel honour bound to keep his mouth shut about what you get for your money. It seems a fairly reasonable position to defend to me.

It is pretty unprecedented for magicians to be in such a froth not about methods but about effects being revealed. I'd assume that if one of the effects on offer produced the appearance of the magician floating 100 feet over the Statue of Liberty, was instantly resettable, it would not be kept secret...

Secrecy of method I can understand. I guess it appears that magicians like secrets for their own sake. In this case, as I said, I assume the original poster believed that the secrecy was serving as a duplicitous marketing tool.

However, if, as you say, there is an easy method of refunding people who are not happy, if it is easy to cancel subscription, if there is no automatically renewing standing order,then accusations of duplicity are not so easy to sustain. Nonetheless, it's always an effort to get your money back. If you were sold a crap toaster on false pretexts you'd still be entitled to complain and warn people even if you could get a refund.

Please understand, I have no opinion one way or the other about the quality of the scheme.

The thing that I find difficult to stomach is the delight that some people have in going for the jugular. The lack of perspective has been laughable. If you think this serves to elevate the 'art' which you are always so vocal about.... Good grief, earlier in the thread you even talk about being concerned that the whole of a continent may be tarnished in your eyes because of this pathetic arguing. How utterly offensive. And then, to cap it all, Goat joins in talking about these 'funny title British magic forums' like 'talkmagic.co.uk' (yes, it's hilarious...) And he's British... There are some people that will flip flop over anything to remain popular, take a look at the original post in this thread and draw your own conclusions.

I can't find it at the moment but someone posted something absolutely on the money in a discussion about/with Glenn Bishop. Pretty much sums up how I feel about this. At times, the bullying and arrogance of some people on this forum is nauseous. To use your theme, it's like a f@*ing school playground. Actually, it's worse because it's not even face to face. It would be interesting to see some of this played out in public and see just how brave with their language some of these characters would really be.

As much as people love Genii and the fantastic stuff that goes on elsewhere in the forum there must be a number of people who are getting sick to the back teeth with all of this.

[Richard Kaufman]

Thanks for renewing your Genii sub, PapaG. The only quasi-snob here at the moment is Brad, and he and Damian are the only real provocateurs on the Forum right now. There is a button that will allow you to hide their posts if you find them unpleasant.

[mrgoat]

then, to cap it all, Goat joins in talking about these 'funny title British magic forums' like 'talkmagic.co.uk' (yes, it's hilarious...) And he's British... There are some people that will flip flop over anything to remain popular

Huh?

So, because I am British, it is hypocritical of me to chastise two British magic forums?

That's a good one!

They are crap forums. Idiots post stupid questions there and more idiots respond to them.

How is that a flip flop exactly?

[Richard Kaufman]

I guess he thinks British people who criticize other Brits are hypobrits... er, hypocrites.

A hypobrit would be a very fat English person. :)

[mrgoat]

Or a VERY british british person

:)

[Richard Kaufman]

HippoBrit. A homonym.

[mrgoat]

Did you just call me a homo?

[Pete McCabe]

Actually the original line was "I see British people" but they changed it in post.

[Pete McCabe]

I'd hate to be the person who's never watched Psycho of Sixth Sense and seen this thread first.

I'd hate to be one of the people frantically googling the movie Psycho of Sixth Sense.

[Richard Kaufman]

Damian, you are a homosapien, like the rest of his. You're not a hippoBrit, either.

Ha! Pete: good one. I find that as I plow through middle age I'm making more typographical erros when typing.

[erdnasephile]

I'd hate to be the person who's never watched Psycho of Sixth Sense and seen this thread first.

I'd hate to be one of the people frantically googling the movie Psycho of Sixth Sense.

This is what you get when you google "Hippo Brit"

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... bride.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -Brit.html

What is it with Brits and hippos?

[Tom Stone]

And your variation of the analogy is wrong - had you desired to be accurate it would have been 'why would you be upset if someone who didn't like the movie gave it a bad review announcing that Bruce Willis is already dead or that the mother is really Norman Bates, information which serves no purpose but to devalue the secrecy at the heart of the project and hinder any potential surprise those who subscribed might be able to convey to those for whom they might perform.

Apparantly, according to the latest intel from MagicBunny, references to those two movies are considered personal attacks on Mr. Jay and his mother. You better apologize, Brad!

[PapaG]

Please do not conflate what I said with some bullsh!t patriotism.

As the late great Bill Hicks said, 'It's a round world last time I looked...'

[PapaG]

That's pretty sick Tom. I like your books and work. Don't destroy the respect I have for your authorial voice.

[Ian Kendall]

No, he right.

I've just cut loose from the Bunny after a series of personal messages from Mike, refusing to accept that it was just a reference to movie spoilers.

[PapaG]

Maybe it should have remained in private.

[mrgoat]

And your variation of the analogy is wrong - had you desired to be accurate it would have been 'why would you be upset if someone who didn't like the movie gave it a bad review announcing that Bruce Willis is already dead or that the mother is really Norman Bates, information which serves no purpose but to devalue the secrecy at the heart of the project and hinder any potential surprise those who subscribed might be able to convey to those for whom they might perform.

Apparantly, according to the latest intel from MagicBunny, references to those two movies are considered personal attacks on Mr. Jay and his mother. You better apologize, Brad!

Maybe, like Bruce Willis, Jay sees things that aren't there. He saw libel in my post, when there was none, and a personal attack against him and his mother in a post about Psycho and The Sixth Sense.

Now he loses Ian and Tom the only two decent magicians that shared their ideas there.

Seriously, is it possible he is on meds and has stopped taking them? Anyone know him personally could reach out and see if he needs help?

He is acting like a proper loon.

[mrgoat]

Please do not conflate what I said with some bullsh!t patriotism.

As the late great Bill Hicks said, 'It's a round world last time I looked...'

Please explain what you meant then PapaG. You said I was flip flopping by calling the magic bunny and talk magic [censored] forums.

What did you mean?

Or are you just posting nonsense attacks because you've got nothing better to do or are in need of attention or something?

Do you want a hug?

[mrgoat]

Maybe it should have remained in private.

It adds light to Jay's crazy idea that discussing a film is a personal attack against his mother. That made no sense at ALL, so now we know that he really is a loon so that is a good thing.

Although, if Jay does dress up in his Mother's frock and sit in a rocking chair talking to himself it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Not in the least. Maybe that's why he got pissed off? We'd worked out what he does at the weekends?

[Ian Kendall]

Maybe it should have remained in private.

Mark,

Since you have read the thread on the Bunny, you will know that I have tried to conduct myself with restraint, often in the face of insult and abuse. The exchange of messages with Mike pushed that restraint to the limit, and I chose to remove myself from the situation, lest it become less cordial.

I was merely confirming Tom's post, to which you had cast aspersions.

[Tom Stone]

Maybe, like Bruce Willis, Jay sees things that aren't there. He saw libel in my post, when there was none, and a personal attack against him and his mother in a post about Psycho and The Sixth Sense.

Well... while not libel in the strict sense, your post wasn't very cordial, was it? But the latter, I agree, it is odd.

Seriously, is it possible he is on meds and has stopped taking them? Anyone know him personally could reach out and see if he needs help?

He is acting like a proper loon.

It's confusing when you mix concern with negative remarks.

[PapaG]

Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain

P!ss in the wind mate. I'm taking the advice given earlier. Bye bye.

[PapaG]

Maybe it should have remained in private.

Mark,

Since you have read the thread on the Bunny, you will know that I have tried to conduct myself with restraint, often in the face of insult and abuse. The exchange of messages with Mike pushed that restraint to the limit, and I chose to remove myself from the situation, lest it become less cordial.

I was merely confirming Tom's post, to which you had cast aspersions.

Hi Ian,

I understand and appreciate what you are saying. What you've said certainly changes the tone of Tom's post.

I think someone on MB commented on your restraint and fairness. I second that.

I still don't think it's a good idea making such personal, private messages public.

Mark

[Brad Henderson]

I believe magic is for everyone, but take issue when people's choices negatively impact either the art or others attempts to enjoy the art.

hardly snobbery.

What I cannot stand, and feel is always worthy of comment, is when ideology leads to false accusations and a blatant disregard for the truth. I cannot stand it when I see it coming from fringe media (which I presume something must be if they consider themselves the opposition to 'the mainstream') or idiot magicians making up "facts" that never existed.

As I said; let's look at what good can possible come from the exposure or information. There was a money back guarantee in place and by all reports, monies were fully refunded and customer service went out of their way to insure matters were handled politely and professionally. There is and was no obligation to sign up. It was a completely voluntary experience. Real Secrets - unlike every child with a webcam - is hardly recruiting new members - in fact, I am unaware that they even have an advertising presence.

So there is zero social or community "good" that comes from the exposure.

So what does come of it?

A lot of people who were having fun receiving surprises, surprises they could share with their friends via performance - including magicians - has been destroyed.

How that is anything but the actions of a jealous child popping the ball the others play with is unfathomable. If abrahamelin did not like the program he could have withdrawn. He could have withdrawn and told the world be hated the tricks. But he didn't. He behaved like a child and allowed us to see how magicians behave when they are finally treated the way they have treated laymen for years.

Let's ask ourselves - why are magicians like the bunnies so outraged. So outraged they are willing to libel themselves with dozens of false claims. So outraged that they refuse to allow the notion that a magician might seriously enjoy one of the rs ideas that they accuse others if cronyism, backroom deals, and suffering of mental illness So outraged that they are not only willing to break their word, but happily encourage others to do so.

Sure - I don't expect them to understand the value of keeping an effect secret. Until you realize, as del Rey said, that magic is not a commodity and by definition should be unique and special. Until you realize there is value in being able to share something with your audience, something not every kid can google a dozen tutorials of, then the notion of keeping an effect secret may make little sense to you.

But it doesn't change the fact that was the plan and the agreement.

What you saw in the months of accusations at the beginning was anger. Anger which led to libelous statements and speculation.

What pushed those buttons?

What pushed those buttons in a way that many reeled with pleasure to see someone's secrets exposed?

I don't think any of the above can be considered snobbery, only an exploration of the dynamic as it occurred

but this may come off as snobbery. I don't feel snobbish as I write it, but it seems the only logical answer:

the magicians who are up in arms about real secrets care nothing for magic. They care only about themselves. And any trick that cost too much, or any item that requires an nda, or any program that dare suggest that 'not everything should be freely available to every person' is seen as a threat to their self serving needs. These are the same types of people who feel it is fine to go onto the cafe and ask people where they can learn a trick they saw someone else do - and get outraged when it is suggested they ask the person they wish to copy and not engage in exposure by committee behind a working performer's back. These are the same people who buy knock offs (or have them made) because they feel that the premium placed on the idea and development of the project has no value - if the metal blindfold only costs $5, then that's what the product should cost. These are the same people who buy downloads of tricks (or an evan's peek deck) "independently invented" by the latest tyro and defend that purchase by saying "this is the way the art grows" - even when said seller lies about conversations had with the person whose routine was also stolen.

in short - JIM RISER IS AGAIN CORRECT.

this all boils down to one thing: these magicians crave "their fix" so badly, the notion they can't have access to everything is so powerful, they will attempt to destroy any mechanism which might possibly keep them from getting that fix as easily as possible

Even if that means betraying the one rule they would most freak out about if broken by someone not actively trying to get their fix: exposure.

a secret is a secret. As magicians, of all people, shouldn't we respect that? Shouldn't we hold ourselves to the same standard? I don't care that you may not think some information worthy of being a secret. that's reasonable. But If you promise to keep it, then for freaks sake, keep it

Perhaps that sounds snobbish.

I don't care

the evidence suggests that it is true.

What you see at the bunny is the reason many people fail to recognize magic as an art. it is not an art. It is a bunch of men pleasing themselves. Woe to someone who might stand in the way of them achieving their onanistic release.

[mrgoat]

Maybe, like Bruce Willis, Jay sees things that aren't there. He saw libel in my post, when there was none, and a personal attack against him and his mother in a post about Psycho and The Sixth Sense.

Well... while not libel in the strict sense, your post wasn't very cordial, was it? But the latter, I agree, it is odd.

Oh no, it wasn't cordial in the least. Mike and I have had a little history and he has been awfully rude to me in private emails so my intention was never cordiality. Equally it wasn't libel.

Seriously, is it possible he is on meds and has stopped taking them? Anyone know him personally could reach out and see if he needs help?

He is acting like a proper loon.

It's confusing when you mix concern with negative remarks.

No need for confusion. I can view someone with disdain yet still be concerned for another human's wellbeing. I'm not an utter heartless swine. He does appear to be posting more and more unhinged words on his forum. Although hot headed, I've not seen him react quite like this before so was wondering if it was a symptom of some medical issue.

[PapaG]

Correct me if I'm wrong Brad. Has the original poster actually destroyed any surprises? I thought he was commenting on tricks that you'd already received. If he has access to future items before you then you have a point about surprises being 'destroyed'.

And your ridiculing of the movie analogy would make logical sense.

[Brad Henderson]

OMG are you freaking kidding me

Michael jay - I have no idea who you are. I dont care who you are.

My comments re Bruce Willis and Psycho were examples of movies with noted surprises in them. I contemplated using a modern movie and actually spoiling it to convey the emotional response but 1) I couldn't think of any and 2) unlike people on your forum, I'm not a self serving ass.

I'm only glad I didn't go with my first choice, which was the crying game, lest you get upset of me accusing you of having a censored.

For those who want the real skinny - read the last couple pages at the bunny. it is like watching the scene where the odd kid goes unhinged - conspiracies everywhere. The pantheon of magic above reproach! It's a cozenage! (had to look that one up ) these guys are so freaked out they are literally chasing themselves in circles.

Tom Stone and Ian, please don't stop posting there. You keep focus on the facts and remain impartial. For the sake of any hapless magician who might wander onto that site - they need to be warned of what they are getting into.

your posts have revealed the bunny's true colors.

please don't stop.

[AJM]

I've been following all this debate with interest.

I've just had a bit of a rifle through a few of the RS envelopes that have lain in a drawer unused over the past year.

While doing so, two words immediately sprung into my mind: 'Christmas' and 'Crackers' - I've no idea why, perhaps the more enlightened among you may be able to help me interpret the thoughts springing from my subconscious mind.

Anyway, whatever the content of each month's envelope, it does certainly seem to be a very emotive subject. I suppose my question is 'Are the monthly offerings worth all the heartache here?'

Cheers

Andrew

[Brad Henderson]

Correct me if I'm wrong Brad. Has the original poster actually destroyed any surprises? I thought he was commenting on tricks that you'd already received. If he has access to future items before you then you have a point about surprises being 'destroyed'.

And your ridiculing of the movie analogy would make logical sense.

1) its a secret - and all the rationalizations in the world will not change the fact tbat magicians are hypocritical about them. When it's a secret to something I do it's sacred. When it's a secret I want to know, then aren't we all brothers. How else will the art grow?

2) Perhaps you are unaware, but magic is meant to be performed. And a lot of magicians perform only for other magicians. I have received a lot of fun dropping real secret moments into my exchanges with magicians. Rather than exclaiming 'pants' they have all been incredibly impressed with the clever, organic moment. Sure, some may have recognized a principle or two, but they all had that 'tbat's clever, I've never seen that before" reaction. to be able to give that type of feeling to a friend who happens to be a magician is a great thing.

So, does abrahamlin's post help us provide interesting moments for people - or does it hinder that?

Will the person who stumbles on his exposure have a fun surprising time when they finally get to experience a real secret moment - or will his brain be in a different space?

It wasn't a spoiler for those who received the item - it was a spoiler for those who might have once had the chance to experience the item.

ball popped.

But that begs the question - what GOOD comes of his exposure?

anything?????

I mean other than tearing down the efforts of others so they too can get their fix of I'll gotten secrets?

I await your reply.

[Ian Kendall]

Tom Stone and Ian, please don't stop posting there. You keep focus on the facts and remain impartial.

Sorry, I'm out of there. I have other stresses in my life at the moment to willingly pile on some more of this. I tried to reason, to stick to fact and ignore conjecture, but the experience reminded me of a joke from Mike Close's book:

A man visits Jerusalem, and goes to visit the wailing wall. He's there for four days, and every day he sees a man go to the wall to pray (or whatever it is that happens there). On the final day he goes up to the man to ask him how often he does this.

'I've been coming here every day since I was eighteen years old', says the man. 'I ask that man can get along with fellow man, that wars will disappear and peace and prosperity will endure in the world'.

'Wow', says the tourist. 'And how does this make you feel?'

'Like I've been talking to a f*cking wall for fifty years...'

[Tom Moore]

Is this wall available as an instant download anywhere?

:-p

[Bill Mullins]

Brad's post is spot on. Members of RS paid money for two things:
1. Tricks
2. Exclusivity/secrecy of the tricks

Abrahamelin has taken away part of #2

[Richard Kaufman]

Abrahamelin is an extraordinarily selfish individual. If he can't play in the playground, then no one can play in the playground.
That type of selfish attitude is endemic in today's culture.

[Jim Riser]

OK, bottom line of all of this posting on multiple forums (or fora) ... was Tom Stone able to get his Magic Bunny account deleted?
Jim

[Tom Stone]

OK, bottom line of all of this posting on multiple forums (or fora) ... was Tom Stone able to get his Magic Bunny account deleted?
Jim

Yes, my request was granted.

[Tom Pilling]

Is anyone else drowning in handbags around here? Or is it just me...