Wonderball

[Brad Jeffers]

What sort of performer would give the audience the impression that what happens in this show is exactly the same as what happens in every other show? That person should read the chapter in Strong Magic about the singer in Vegas whose name escapes me.

Wayne Newton

[Richard Kaufman]

The type of performer who wants his audience to feel that they're receiving exactly the same quality show that he always gives. Before he outlived his welcome and lost his voice, Wayne Newton was a big star in Vegas because his audiences loved him. They came to see the Wayne Newton they knew and were expecting and he never disappointed them.

[JHostler]

And that type of performer appeals to a much different audience than one leaning toward feast-or-famine improvisation and dynamic programming. I'd get my Wayne Newton fix in one shot (if that)... but I'd pay good money to see late 50's-era Miles Davis five nights straight. One problem is that magicians are generally poor actors and even worse improvisers.

[Brad Jeffers]

What sort of performer would give the audience the impression that what happens in this show is exactly the same as what happens in every other show?

The type of performer who wants his audience to feel that they're receiving exactly the same quality show that he always gives.

The section in Strong Magic that contains the Wayne Newton reference is entitled Planned Spontaneity...

"The essence of successful close-up magic and indeed of all live entertainment is the feeling that you are experiencing something now that you would not experience if you had come to the performance yesterday or if you came tomorrow - that you are experiencing something that has never happened before and will never happen again, at least not in exactly this way, and something that you are lucky to be a part of. This is a very difficult quality to pinpoint, but there is no doubt that all the greatest live entertainers succeed in imparting this feeling to their audiences."

He then goes on to relate a story of how Wayne Newton expertly used this technique to create a seemingly unique show each evening, when in fact each show was exactly the same ...

Planned Spontaneity

[Tom Pilling]

I worked many times with the great Lillian Boutte over the years. I don't think she uses any fancy words to accomplish what is being described above, and I doubt she ever read a book on the subject. She just puts on a great show. Every single night. If it works? Keep it in. If it doesn't? Kick it to the curb.

Someone mentioned Miles? He was a helluva showman, actually. The shame is, that young musicians continue to mimic his stage craft, utterly failing to understand that it was the Miles 'show'. When other people do it, it just looks like disdain for the audience and falls completely flat.

[Brad Henderson]

I think you miss Jonathan townsend's point.

How many times have we seen the magician attempt to do something and that something results in a surprising result to the magician (the card ends up fourth from top) and yet each time the magician repeats the same process, he seems equally surprised by the same result.

that's not how a normal human would act.

they would eventually realize a pattern and respond accordingly. or they would change the 'thing' they were doing in an effort to understand.

but no, we plod forward usually the only change being we get louder and faster.

(Fred kaps being a notable exception)

now - once we have established as part of our story that cards will do things the magician doesn't expect, why is the magician still surprised when it happens in another trick?

it's hardly surprising to the audience - we were just taught this is how his world works.

that magician must be really stupid.

deciding to show an audience a brand new trick because they are super special is entirely different.

Being spontaneous is one thing.

being stupid and expecting our audiences to be equally so, another.

[Brad Jeffers]

... "that ball on a stick trick" is as much a magic cliche as "its up his sleeve" to a lay audience

Is this true? How have all these lay audience members come to learn of the methodology of this particular trick?

The Masked Magician?

Youtube tutorials?

Melinda Saxe's performance?

I am of the opinion, that if a person who has no prior knowledge as to the methodology of Zombie, were to witness an expertly performed routine, they will be fooled.

As to how many people do have that prior knowledge, to the extent that Zombie can be called a "magic cliche", I have no idea.

I suspect, that among the laity, it is less than you think.

[Brad Henderson]

Disney feature the zombie in a parade several years ago. Anyone who was watching saw the method - at least the couple of times I saw it.

[Richard Kaufman]

"Zombie" is a very hard effect to do well, requiring abilities at mime that most magicians simply haven't developed.

Losander's "Floating Table" is actually, I think, easier to do more deceptively for the average performer. The table, and the Al Schneider/Tommy Wonder gimmick give you more expertise immediately.

[Tom Moore]

As to how many people do have that prior knowledge, to the extent that Zombie can be called a "magic cliché", I have no idea.

I suspect, that among the laity, it is less than you think.

Speaking as someone who's entire career is based on polling/studying audience response to "magic" and using that information to improve shows & effects to make them more magical and more entertaining I can be reasonably confident that when making statements about how the broader audience perceive magic effects and their preconceptions about magic clichés i'm surprisingly well informed.

You also keep talking about the mythical "great" performance of the zombie and as i keep saying there are historic performances that address many of the Zombie problems and would be significantly deceptive and entertaining to audiences.... but we're not talking about these performances; we're talking about the vast majority of ACTUAL performances of the zombie which are little more than un-imaginative dealer-dems of that ball on a stick trick.

[Brad Jeffers]

A great performance of Zombie is not a myth.

I have seen it with my own two eyes.

I only contend that if you don't have prior knowledge of how it works, it will fool you. Something that I don't think holds true with thread based methods, such as Wonderball.

Maybe I'm wrong, and it fools no one and never has.

As I am not privy to the the Zombie Performance Audience Response Polling Information Files, I cannot be sure.

[Jonathan Townsend]

A great performance of Zombie is not a myth.

I have seen it with my own two eyes.

...

Let's stick do what you have done for audiences, how well it worked for you (is that the trick they ask you to do at your next engagement with them?) and how well it worked for them in realtime (was that the item which got the best reaction at your show?)

I've tried the zombie, astrosphere, looped and stage crossed ball setups. I wound up liking the Finn Jon Silver Stick item.

The biggest flaw I've seen in common performance is a lack of perceived weight for the prop before it starts floating around. How heavy is that silver ball, the table...

Is there a setup that comes with a solid prop that can be switched later in the act? Even the Germain wood block trick takes the trouble to make sure the audience knows the planks are solid before the magic starts.

[Jim Riser]

Folks, this may be of interest to some of you:

http://jamesriser.com/Magic/SSBalls/Demo.html

Enjoy.
Jim

[Tom Moore]

I'm not sure why - you're not the first person to come up with a "seamless" metal ball for floating in metal or any other material. You've chosen a tricky, time-consuming technique that requires skill certainly but you're not the first....

[Jim Riser]

Tom,
My goal was certainly not to become "the first". Such things are of little concern to me. I was interested only in exploring something different with a floating ball. I can do it - so I experiment. Time consuming, yes, but such extra work is what what moves one beyond the common.
Jim

[Jim Martin]

These look very nice - bravo Jim.
What is the approximate weight?

[Jim Riser]

Jim,
Small ball = 4.2 oz.
Large ball = 6.9 oz.
Jim

[Brad Henderson]

Tom raises a point that could and should be made in other recent discussions - there will always be exceptions to the rule. Teller's approach to the floating ball, Larry jone's zombie, tommy wonders floating birdcage - we remember these because they are so different from the norm.

but how many real people will see one of these performances? In most cases zombie does come off as ball on the stick. Part of this is because of the nature of the trick - but the real issue is the magicians lack of understanding of the nature of the trick, and specifically their failure to turn said trick's weaknesses into strengths (or just hide them, for the less motivated performer).

bob neale wrote of illusions we all suffer from - one is the illusion that we are exceptional. I suspect that's why magicians hate hearing words like Tom has written - it suggests we may not be as great as we think we are. remember the blow up when David Rowyn did his post in children's tricks? Second rate kid magi's went bonkers - they were incapable of considering that maybe the tools they used had flaws and therefor there performances may be likewise flawed.

blasphemy.

this is of course why so much magic is bad. The only person whose feelings value to the magician is the magician's feelings him or herself. If they like it, the audience must.

my trumpet teacher gave excellent advice. If you can hear the difference between you and severinson, some day - with practice - you have the chance to sound like that.

but when you can hear no difference ...


too often what we imagine we do is not what we actually do.

until we stop fooling ourselves, how can we hope to improve let alone move our audiences.

[Jim Riser]

Well, Brad, were you able to hear the difference between Doc's trumpet playing and yours? Or can we assume that you heard no differences and decided to take up magic instead?
Jim

[Jeffrey Korst]

my trumpet teacher gave excellent advice. If you can hear the difference between you and severinson, some day - with practice - you have the chance to sound like that.

Thanks for re posting that, Brad. I'd been trying to remember where I heard it. My dad put himself though law school playing trumpet in big bands. I was recently talking with a friend of his who tells his students, "An amateur practices until he gets it right, a pro practices till he can't get it wrong."

More on topic: I firmly believe if people who perform zombie would read and follow the advice of Al Schneider and Tommy Wonder, there would be a lot less talk about a 'ball on a stick.'

[Brad Henderson]

Well, Brad, were you able to hear the difference between Doc's trumpet playing and yours? Or can we assume that you heard no differences and decided to take up magic instead?
Jim

Oh - I heard the difference and eventually realized that the gap was not growing smaller!

I learned a lot about learning from Vince DiMartino. He also taught me that the path to improvement is the turning of one's weaknesses into strengths.

Sadly, trumpet playing was not my strength. I was a much smarter player than I was talented. I could sight read better than most and was a very musical player - but I lacked the technical facility I should have had - tone, flexibility, etc. I also can't hear worth poo poo. At least not to the degree that a musician should.

I regret that no one was ever kind enough to me to explain that I really didn't have the basic skill set required to be a successful trumpet player. They let me fake my way through it, which I could do because I understood the ideas well enough to compensate for my lack of ability. I sometimes wonder if it were a waste of time.

But in truth, it's my own fault. I decided to major in music because of all the subjects in school I found it the most challenging and most mysterious. I figured, in my youthful zeal, that it made more sense to study something that challenged me rather than something at which I excelled.

Was that the road less traveled? Did that make all the difference?

I know I was once offered my dream music gig - directing the high school band I grew up in, working with an amazing co director.

I thought to myself, again in my youthful zeal, if I take this job I know exactly where I will be and what I will be doing in 40 years. If I follow magic, who knows.

Did I take the path less traveled? Did it make all of the difference?

I share this only because in my wistful old age it seemed like the thing to do.

To that point, I don't think it made any difference but I appreciate your indulgence.

[Brad Jeffers]

Jim,
Are you familiar with THESE?

They would require modification to accommodate the gimmick. The weight is 8 oz.

Of course for you, making one from scratch is the way to go.

You have the ball, now all you need (as apparently everyone on earth knows ), is the "stick".

[Jonathan Townsend]

Hi James,

thanks for showing your latest work on making a ball that looks seamless.
Any chance of matching solid spheres? Or maybe a box that helps provide a good clunk sound? The ball on its own is ... out of context. Producing it from an egg bag or such would also lose that initial sense of "heavy".

Where I work we have a machine shop with guys who work on lathes and just got a couple of CNC devices. And thanks to folks like Charlie Kalish I can appreciate the difference in perspective of a guy who sets off to make the things he wants to try from one who goes out scrounging for what's easily available on the general retail market.

Keep making the stuff the rest of us need to do quality magic,

Jon

[Jim Riser]

Jon,
You are welcome but that is not the latest work. That was from 7 years ago. At that time, the gazing ball linked to above was not readily available. A solid ball is easily obtained. The question is "can you lift a solid 4 inch ball?". Such items can quickly smash a finger or foot. The hollow balls can make the required sound. A little acting will complete the illusion of a heavy ball.

An improved completely different "stick" helps with the floating of the heavier but hollow ball.
Jim

P.S. I should mention that my latest version utilizes two different ball support methods to add to the mystery - one allows free floating without the cloth or the need for threads. I always prefer combining methods to complete an effect.

[erdnasephile]

Were the original metal zombies designed deliberately to split into two halves or was that just the easiest way to manufacture them?

I'm just asking because Neil Foster (and presumably others) have used this feature to their advantage:

[Bob Farmer]

As a kid I used two Zombies. One was in a box with a thread that was attached to a sort of hammock. If you pulled the thread the Zombie would start coming out of the box.

The other Zombie was permanently attached to the gimac and hidden under the foulard (love that word, "foulard").

I remove the Zombie from the box and then place it back in, letting it make a metal clunk courtesy of some metal in the bottom of the box. I pull the thread and the Zombie starts to come up and out of the box, but I have the foulard in hand so as the Zombie is just about to clear the box, I cover it with the foulard and let go of the thread, the Zombie drops back in the box and the second Zombie appears to float up under the foulard.

[R.E.Byrnes]

Wonderball could be greatly improved by simply doing Astrosphere. The original effect produces a wonderful illusion of floating without jiggling--the ball floats "solidly" and is just great.

Astrosphere was great; much better than Zombie

[Richard Kaufman]

"Astrosphere" was also made by Tenyo (licensed from Tannen Magic). Beautiful product--much nicer than the one Tannen's made. And rare!

And, it apparently was truly created by Tony Spina.

[Pete McCabe]

Now this is a wonderful ball:

http://ied.rca.ac.uk/de-computation/space-replay

[Brad Jeffers]

Were the original metal zombies designed deliberately to split into two halves or was that just the easiest way to manufacture them?

The original Zombies did not come apart. You could purchase the Zombie Flower Finale separately. The 1969 Abbott's catalog lists it for $10 - $10.25 delivered.

The spring flower bouquets that came with the Flower Finale ball were nowhere near as nice looking as the ones used by Neil Foster, but you could of course replace them with your own.

A lot of people, for one reason or another, don't like the Flower Finale.

I'm not one of those people.

[Jonathan Pendragon]

I have metaphorically removed the gauntlet and tossed it at Tom Stone's feet. I am performing at the Magic Castle April 7 to 13 and will present something original with a Zombie (and I don't mean Crow Garret whose big and so quiet it scares me sometime, he is also a close friend). I challenge Tom to do the same.

[Tom Stone]

I challenge Tom to do the same.

Huh!?
What a coincidence! I ordered a Zombie ball from Viking magic just a week ago. Arrived past friday. First thing I did was to hold it up and admire the craftsmanship - whereupon the 2-part gimmick unscrewed a half turn and the ball fell to the floor and got a big dent.

[lawrens godon]

Making a sphere float without any gimmick is fun too !

[Matthew Field]

I'll still give my vote to Raymond Crowe's "Naked Zombie" which uses no gimmick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVWDuU1p2kI

Matt Field

[Jonathan Pendragon]

Tom
That doesn't count as original, lots of people do that .

Matthew, Agreed, Raymond's piece knocked me out when I saw it at AMA award show last year. BUT, this challenge is ball on stick!

[Brad Henderson]

Tom - take comfort knowing you got the first dent out of the way. It's the most emotionally charged. Enjoy the rest as they come.

[Dan LeFay]

Lawrens, extremely skillful and ABSOLUTELY magical!
(Makes me wonder why anyone would want a gimmicked version anyway?)
Have you ever tried this with a (hollow) steel ball?
I know the lucite ball is what is normally used in contact juggling, but I've never seen it done with a zombie type ball.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Lawrens, extremely skillful and ABSOLUTELY magical!
(Makes me wonder why anyone would want a gimmicked version anyway?)
Have you ever tried this with a (hollow) steel ball?
I know the lucite ball is what is normally used in contact juggling, but I've never seen it done with a zombie type ball.

You might ask Michael Moschen about options for spheres. Using a little mime and some magic technology in addition to his juggling ideas ...

Not sure what to make of the giant pearl -> golden orb -> ball bearing trick
Understood on some level that it's supposed to be very heavy and so all the more puzzling when it clings to a silk scarf...

[Richard Kaufman]

How did this topic start?

[Brad Henderson]

boobz!