FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
- CraigMitchell
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FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
2 countries will be bidding for FISM 2015 ... Italy vs Korea.
Some very impressive bid books have been compiled:
*Italy = http://www.mastersofmagic.it/materiale/BIDBOOK.pdf
*Korea = http://magicocreator.com/BIDBOOK.pdf
Aaaah ... the fun that awaits in Blackpool :-)
Some very impressive bid books have been compiled:
*Italy = http://www.mastersofmagic.it/materiale/BIDBOOK.pdf
*Korea = http://magicocreator.com/BIDBOOK.pdf
Aaaah ... the fun that awaits in Blackpool :-)
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
They both look capable of producing a good convention.
The registration and hotels in Italy look a bit more expensive, but I wonder if FISM is ready to go back to Asia so soon after Beijing.
The registration and hotels in Italy look a bit more expensive, but I wonder if FISM is ready to go back to Asia so soon after Beijing.
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- Dustin Stinett
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Im curious what impact the current economic situation in the European Union will have on this decision. 2015 seems far away in that regard. Depending on who one talks to, Italy is next in the line of tumbling dominoes after Greece (some say Spainno one knows for sure). Of course, South Korea will face a growing challenge of its own with its already declining exports to the EU. Im not sure how much confidence one can put in the cost projections made by either committee.
Dustin
Dustin
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
The Korean government is backing their bid, so money (as it was in Beijing) won't be an issue. That's one of the reasons Korea might take it.
Another reason is travel.
Airlines that fly to Busan:
Korean Air, American Airlines, Asiana Airlines, Japan Airlines, Delta, Hainan Airlines, Lufthansa, Air China, Hawaiian Airlines
Airlines that fly to Rimini:
Alitalia
To get to Rimini you have to fly into another city in Italy and then take the bus or train. Those traveling entirely within Europe or from the UK could take the Eurostar trains.
Even with the limitations above, it would still take less time to get to Rimini than Busan for almost everyone except those living in Asia. For me, on the east cost of the United States, a trip to Busan would mean possibly 18 hours of travel: Washington DC to Narita Airport in Japan, then from Narita to Busan.
Another reason is travel.
Airlines that fly to Busan:
Korean Air, American Airlines, Asiana Airlines, Japan Airlines, Delta, Hainan Airlines, Lufthansa, Air China, Hawaiian Airlines
Airlines that fly to Rimini:
Alitalia
To get to Rimini you have to fly into another city in Italy and then take the bus or train. Those traveling entirely within Europe or from the UK could take the Eurostar trains.
Even with the limitations above, it would still take less time to get to Rimini than Busan for almost everyone except those living in Asia. For me, on the east cost of the United States, a trip to Busan would mean possibly 18 hours of travel: Washington DC to Narita Airport in Japan, then from Narita to Busan.
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
If the organizers are smart enough to consider how the "spouse/significant other" factor could affect attendance, the decision shouldn't be close. My girlfriend had a HUGE reaction when I shared this news with her and she learned that Rimini was a choice. Her words were something like "ANYWHERE in Italy is great."
-- Jeffrey Cowan
www.cowan-law.com
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- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Yes, my wife is going to say the same thing: "Let's go to Rome and Florence afterward." I've been to Rome before and what can you say: it's Rome. Great art, architecture, food, sightseeing. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel ALONE is worth the visit.
I haven't been to South Korea, but I've heard it's a great country and I know the food is good.
I haven't been to South Korea, but I've heard it's a great country and I know the food is good.
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Hmmm. But neither delegates nor their spouses have any say in future FISM venues.
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
We'll see how all the FISM delegates vote. The smaller issue on the table is where the next FISM will be held. The larger and much more important issue is who is going to be elected as the new president and vice president. Perilous times indeed.
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Perilous? Is there an arch villain on the loose ?
Brad Henderson magician in Austin Texas
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Much quicker for us Aussies to get to Korea too. Ten hours versus 24 hours + to get to Italy
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Tim, have you been to Busan? What's it like?
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- Marco Pusterla
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Nice comments: I'll try to post some quick replies to the various questions:
@Dustin: the economic situation in South Europe is bad but this affects mostly the locals: if even some countries were to abandon the Euro to go to another currency (Lira, for Italy, Dracma for Greece), this will be a great advantage for travellers as the local currency will be very undervalued in the first years. We don't know yet, and I would not bank on this to happen :)
@Richard: if you check page 14 of the Italian Bid Book and compare the prices with those from Korea, you will see that the Italian prices, considering the discounts, are cheaper than Korea's. For example (I'm copying from the book):
For USA - North American participants
* total expenses for 1 person - from 890 (Registration fee + accomodation + flight costs)
(see the details in the book). Of course, you will probably want to stay in a higher quality hotel (you can sleep in Rimini for 25 EUR/night in a 2-star hotel...) so the costs will raise, but still being quite competitive, I believe.
@Jeffrey: Visiting Italy, for a magic convention or anything else, is a very unique chance to have an unforgettable holiday. While Italy has not been assigned the WCM yet, I heard from the organizers that they are already working on a partnership with local travel agencies to offer to the conventioneers a package of tours to discover the treasures of Rome,Venice, Naples, Pisa, Florence and other cities. The participants will be able to book these special tours on the convention's web site, at very special prices. But all this will be defined better IF Italy is assigned the honour to host the FISM.
Also, if you check page 133 of the bid book, you will see a heading "Social Events" which should give you and your meaningful half an idea of what is being planned. These ideas (free beer; free spaghetti; clubbing with professional DJs) have been experimented in the past editions of the "Masters of Magic" convention (about which Max Maven talked in the June digital edition of Genii...) and they proved very successful with the attendees and their families.
@Tim: well, you know that Europe is at the antipodes of Australia... that's the way it is. For me it would be easier to attend FISM this year in Blackpool (five hours drive...), but I don't think you should base your preference on which convention to attend based on the distance to it. If this was the case, I would only attend my magic club's conventions, where I can walk to! :D
Hope this may have helped in some way clarify the doubts: on the Facebook FISM page for Italy (http://www.facebook.com/Fism2015italy) will be posted - I understand - 100 reasons why Italy should host the WCM... keep an eye on it.
@Dustin: the economic situation in South Europe is bad but this affects mostly the locals: if even some countries were to abandon the Euro to go to another currency (Lira, for Italy, Dracma for Greece), this will be a great advantage for travellers as the local currency will be very undervalued in the first years. We don't know yet, and I would not bank on this to happen :)
@Richard: if you check page 14 of the Italian Bid Book and compare the prices with those from Korea, you will see that the Italian prices, considering the discounts, are cheaper than Korea's. For example (I'm copying from the book):
For USA - North American participants
* total expenses for 1 person - from 890 (Registration fee + accomodation + flight costs)
(see the details in the book). Of course, you will probably want to stay in a higher quality hotel (you can sleep in Rimini for 25 EUR/night in a 2-star hotel...) so the costs will raise, but still being quite competitive, I believe.
@Jeffrey: Visiting Italy, for a magic convention or anything else, is a very unique chance to have an unforgettable holiday. While Italy has not been assigned the WCM yet, I heard from the organizers that they are already working on a partnership with local travel agencies to offer to the conventioneers a package of tours to discover the treasures of Rome,Venice, Naples, Pisa, Florence and other cities. The participants will be able to book these special tours on the convention's web site, at very special prices. But all this will be defined better IF Italy is assigned the honour to host the FISM.
Also, if you check page 133 of the bid book, you will see a heading "Social Events" which should give you and your meaningful half an idea of what is being planned. These ideas (free beer; free spaghetti; clubbing with professional DJs) have been experimented in the past editions of the "Masters of Magic" convention (about which Max Maven talked in the June digital edition of Genii...) and they proved very successful with the attendees and their families.
@Tim: well, you know that Europe is at the antipodes of Australia... that's the way it is. For me it would be easier to attend FISM this year in Blackpool (five hours drive...), but I don't think you should base your preference on which convention to attend based on the distance to it. If this was the case, I would only attend my magic club's conventions, where I can walk to! :D
Hope this may have helped in some way clarify the doubts: on the Facebook FISM page for Italy (http://www.facebook.com/Fism2015italy) will be posted - I understand - 100 reasons why Italy should host the WCM... keep an eye on it.
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
...furthermore...
@Richard: Rimini's airport is 5 minutes by car to the centre of town or 15 by foot (!) and there are flights there from many European capitals, but, you're correct, none from the USA (as yet... maybe by 2015?). You could fly to London, Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt (just to mention the largest european hubs) and from there to Rimini. Page 115 gives the details of the airport and current connections. Yes, this means (for magicians travelling from the USA) a change of plane somewhere, but I understand this would be the case for Busan, at least from most non-Asian attendees.
All the best,
@Richard: Rimini's airport is 5 minutes by car to the centre of town or 15 by foot (!) and there are flights there from many European capitals, but, you're correct, none from the USA (as yet... maybe by 2015?). You could fly to London, Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt (just to mention the largest european hubs) and from there to Rimini. Page 115 gives the details of the airport and current connections. Yes, this means (for magicians travelling from the USA) a change of plane somewhere, but I understand this would be the case for Busan, at least from most non-Asian attendees.
All the best,
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
There has been no talk of Italy leaving the Euro zone, so let's just leave that out of the discussion.
As far as example prices given for the total expense of the convention in Italy ("total expenses for 1 person - from 890 [Registration fee + accomodation + flight costs]), that might be close if you already live in Italy, otherwise it's an absurd estimate.
Convention registration is 400 euros at the start. That leaves, by your estimate, 490 euros for both airfare and hotel--that's seems a gross underestimate. My airfare will cost double that; my hotel will cost double that.
Total cost from the east coast of the US will be:
* $1000 for airfare (if we're lucky--probably more like $1400 in 3 years)
* $1,200 for a single person staying in a room at a 4-star hotel
* $500 for registration (if you pay money 3 years in advance for the most discounted rate)
And all of this while the euro is deep in the toilet because of a worldwide recession: $2,700 minimum (but more likely $3,500).
Three years from now the euro could be much more robust and it could well cost $5,000, and that's without accounting for any sightseeing trips. Bringing your wife and kid at the height of tourist season and doing sightseeing raises the cost to at least $10,000.
Now I expect it to cost a lot to go to Asia, so the "Yikes" factor about the price is already built in for Busan, but not for Rimini. (And my wife and daughter really have no desire to visit Korea, as lovely as it may be, so right away I can knock off half the cost.)
As far as example prices given for the total expense of the convention in Italy ("total expenses for 1 person - from 890 [Registration fee + accomodation + flight costs]), that might be close if you already live in Italy, otherwise it's an absurd estimate.
Convention registration is 400 euros at the start. That leaves, by your estimate, 490 euros for both airfare and hotel--that's seems a gross underestimate. My airfare will cost double that; my hotel will cost double that.
Total cost from the east coast of the US will be:
* $1000 for airfare (if we're lucky--probably more like $1400 in 3 years)
* $1,200 for a single person staying in a room at a 4-star hotel
* $500 for registration (if you pay money 3 years in advance for the most discounted rate)
And all of this while the euro is deep in the toilet because of a worldwide recession: $2,700 minimum (but more likely $3,500).
Three years from now the euro could be much more robust and it could well cost $5,000, and that's without accounting for any sightseeing trips. Bringing your wife and kid at the height of tourist season and doing sightseeing raises the cost to at least $10,000.
Now I expect it to cost a lot to go to Asia, so the "Yikes" factor about the price is already built in for Busan, but not for Rimini. (And my wife and daughter really have no desire to visit Korea, as lovely as it may be, so right away I can knock off half the cost.)
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Given that the books were released in English, it's surprising that they didn't have native English speakers review them (particularly the Italian bid). There are numerous typos, translation errors, and math errors (exchange rates are not consistent).
In my day job for the Army, I review proposals from contractors in their bids for various technical tasks. If I had to review the Korean proposal in that context, I'd return it as insufficient and non responsive with respect to cost data.
For example, the expenditures page of the Korean bid book (36th page of the pdf file) shows a total of $2.2 million. But if you add up the expenditures shown, you only get $1.78m. From the income side, there is $762k of Other Income Sources that is handwaved how much is the city kicking in? What are the entrance fees?
Annex 3 talks about hiring INTERCOM Convention Services to run the event, but it is impossible to work out what their fee is (Flat fee? Cost plus? Straight percentage? Time and Materials?) Why INTERCOM vs some other company?
The Italian proposal mentions that ~16% of attendees must be comped; the Korean proposal doesn't mention this. And the Italian document handwaves a lot of sponsorship money as well (300000 Euros).
The FISM license fee is not the same in each proposal (Italian: 30000 Euros plus 1.5% commission; Korean: 5% of Congress fee).
I don't know how the powers-that-be at FISM make these decisions, but I'm glad I'm not the one doing it. In either case, you've got to take a lot on faith that the bidding organizations will do a good job (and given that they've both put on successful large conventions, maybe the risk isn't as bad as it looks). It will probably work out, and it looks like the financial risk will fall on the hosting organizations, so they will have the incentive to do a good job despite any "softness" in financials right now. But for an event that will run $1.5 to 2.2M, you'd sure expect more rigor in the budgets.
In my day job for the Army, I review proposals from contractors in their bids for various technical tasks. If I had to review the Korean proposal in that context, I'd return it as insufficient and non responsive with respect to cost data.
For example, the expenditures page of the Korean bid book (36th page of the pdf file) shows a total of $2.2 million. But if you add up the expenditures shown, you only get $1.78m. From the income side, there is $762k of Other Income Sources that is handwaved how much is the city kicking in? What are the entrance fees?
Annex 3 talks about hiring INTERCOM Convention Services to run the event, but it is impossible to work out what their fee is (Flat fee? Cost plus? Straight percentage? Time and Materials?) Why INTERCOM vs some other company?
The Italian proposal mentions that ~16% of attendees must be comped; the Korean proposal doesn't mention this. And the Italian document handwaves a lot of sponsorship money as well (300000 Euros).
The FISM license fee is not the same in each proposal (Italian: 30000 Euros plus 1.5% commission; Korean: 5% of Congress fee).
I don't know how the powers-that-be at FISM make these decisions, but I'm glad I'm not the one doing it. In either case, you've got to take a lot on faith that the bidding organizations will do a good job (and given that they've both put on successful large conventions, maybe the risk isn't as bad as it looks). It will probably work out, and it looks like the financial risk will fall on the hosting organizations, so they will have the incentive to do a good job despite any "softness" in financials right now. But for an event that will run $1.5 to 2.2M, you'd sure expect more rigor in the budgets.
Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Either way, at least it won't be in Blackpool.
Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Hi Richard,
I'm off to Busan in August to attend their annual BUSAN INTERNATIONAL MAGIC FESTIVAL. http://www.hibimf.org/list.php?bbs_id=main For the last 6 years they have run an amazing festival with an opening show on the beach that attracts 10,000 people alone! (Our Melbourne Magic Festival gets 10,000 people all up over two weeks).
They have lots of funding from the government and local tourism organisations and every year they hand pick 150 additional volunteer staff and still turn hundreds away.
I do like the idea that they are combining FISM with a magic festival for the public, especially because magic is HUGE in Korea at the moment and the public appetite for it seems insatiable.
I have been to Seoul and I love it there, ultra modern while maintaining and preserving it's history, and very easy for the foreigner to get around.
Busan is the tourism hub of South Korea - a beach resort with lots of state of the art attractions.
The bottom line for me is, although it's nice to hold FISM in a nice tourist destination (and both Italy and Korea appeal in that regard) it's all about the convention. How well organised will it be? Will it attract the biggest names in magic? Will the championship be staged in optimal conditions and will the performers, the audience and the ART be treated with the utmost respect?
We've had some GREAT FISM events in recent years (Stockholm and Den Haag come to mind) but also some debacles (Japan and Lisbon).
It's not the destination that matters, but the organisation.
I'm off to Busan in August to attend their annual BUSAN INTERNATIONAL MAGIC FESTIVAL. http://www.hibimf.org/list.php?bbs_id=main For the last 6 years they have run an amazing festival with an opening show on the beach that attracts 10,000 people alone! (Our Melbourne Magic Festival gets 10,000 people all up over two weeks).
They have lots of funding from the government and local tourism organisations and every year they hand pick 150 additional volunteer staff and still turn hundreds away.
I do like the idea that they are combining FISM with a magic festival for the public, especially because magic is HUGE in Korea at the moment and the public appetite for it seems insatiable.
I have been to Seoul and I love it there, ultra modern while maintaining and preserving it's history, and very easy for the foreigner to get around.
Busan is the tourism hub of South Korea - a beach resort with lots of state of the art attractions.
The bottom line for me is, although it's nice to hold FISM in a nice tourist destination (and both Italy and Korea appeal in that regard) it's all about the convention. How well organised will it be? Will it attract the biggest names in magic? Will the championship be staged in optimal conditions and will the performers, the audience and the ART be treated with the utmost respect?
We've had some GREAT FISM events in recent years (Stockholm and Den Haag come to mind) but also some debacles (Japan and Lisbon).
It's not the destination that matters, but the organisation.
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Tim, weren't you in Beijing? I notice that it didn't make your list of either "great" or "debacle" FISMs.
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
I've attended the last 8 FISMS. I guess the other four rank somewhere in between.
- Marco Pusterla
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Richard,
While we are all magicians, we cannot predict what air fares will be in three years time... not to Italy, nor to Korea :) However, at the moment, I see you can fly New York-Rome for 400 EUR return (economy). Indeed, you personally probably won't fly from NY: everybody's logistics are different and, at the end of the day, whether to attend FISM or not is every magician's choice, factoring all costs like flights, transport, etc.
In regards to hotels, you could stay in a 4 stars hotel in Rimini for 80 EUR/day - this is 480 EUR for 6 days which, at today's exchange rate, is about $600. Like above, we cannot predict what the exchange rate will be in three years time, so these discussions may prove futile. We can only see what we would spend if we were to leave next week for a six days visit to Italy:
- 4 star hotel: EUR 480
- Return flight from New York: EUR 400
- Convention Registration: EUR 582
This is a total of EUR 1,426, which means about $ 1,803 for a week in Italy at an (hypotetical) magic covention. Not cheap, in the grand scheme of things, but still less than your estimate.
What you are not considering is also eating in Rimini (or Italy): Italy is still a very cheap place for food and for very good food: with EUR 15/$20 you can have a full meal of high quality... and I promise you won't regret it! :)
@Bill: Interesting point the one you raise about the "license fee"... I asked the organizer. The answer I've got is that the 1.5% is what FISM requests to be paid to them. You can check http://fism.org/web/about/fism-statutes/ item 11.6, which I quote in full:
The EUR 30,000 was requested by FISM as an otherwise unspecified "license fee". I don't know what that's for and why it doesn't appear in the Korean bid book...
@Tim: what you say about:
The club bidding on the next WCM has been organizing for the past four years the "Masters of Magic" convention: http://www.mastersofmagic.it/ in the North of Italy (in a city that, sadly, doesn't have enough hotels to host the number of visitors to FISM...). This convention has attracted the names of David Berglas, Juan Tamariz, Rene' Lavand, David Blaine, Cyril Takayama, John Thompson, David Williamson, Max Maven, Uri Geller, Dani DaOrtiz, JC Sum, Franz Harary, Brett Daniels and many, many others. The shows have all been held in theatres where also the competitions have been performed. A number of cameras have been provided for the close-up performances and the audience really enjoyed the events. The past two years, the Masters of Magic convention was completely sold out a month before the opening! Yes, most of the attendees were Italian and French - which is why it doesn't seem anybody outside Europe knows it :( In addition, the gala shows have been directed by Arturo Brachetti and have proved some of the best magic galas I've ever seen (and I've been attending magic conventions for 30 years...) as one of Arturo's skills is the ability to stage and organize a number of different acts (ask Ed Alonzo, for example...).
In addition to all this: Rimini is the touristic centre on the Adriatic, popular with Italian, German and British tourists and full of attractions. It's a nice town that thrives on tourism and attracts hundreds of thousands visitors each year. I've been holidaying there in the past and it's a lovely place - again, probably not well known outside Europe, but definitely a great place where to host a magic convention.
Hope this helps, all the best,
While we are all magicians, we cannot predict what air fares will be in three years time... not to Italy, nor to Korea :) However, at the moment, I see you can fly New York-Rome for 400 EUR return (economy). Indeed, you personally probably won't fly from NY: everybody's logistics are different and, at the end of the day, whether to attend FISM or not is every magician's choice, factoring all costs like flights, transport, etc.
In regards to hotels, you could stay in a 4 stars hotel in Rimini for 80 EUR/day - this is 480 EUR for 6 days which, at today's exchange rate, is about $600. Like above, we cannot predict what the exchange rate will be in three years time, so these discussions may prove futile. We can only see what we would spend if we were to leave next week for a six days visit to Italy:
- 4 star hotel: EUR 480
- Return flight from New York: EUR 400
- Convention Registration: EUR 582
This is a total of EUR 1,426, which means about $ 1,803 for a week in Italy at an (hypotetical) magic covention. Not cheap, in the grand scheme of things, but still less than your estimate.
What you are not considering is also eating in Rimini (or Italy): Italy is still a very cheap place for food and for very good food: with EUR 15/$20 you can have a full meal of high quality... and I promise you won't regret it! :)
@Bill: Interesting point the one you raise about the "license fee"... I asked the organizer. The answer I've got is that the 1.5% is what FISM requests to be paid to them. You can check http://fism.org/web/about/fism-statutes/ item 11.6, which I quote in full:
11.6 The Host Society shall, immediately following the end of the Championship, forward a payment of 1.5 % (one and a half percent) of the gross convention fees to the International Vice President responsible for the financial affairs of the FISM.
The EUR 30,000 was requested by FISM as an otherwise unspecified "license fee". I don't know what that's for and why it doesn't appear in the Korean bid book...
@Tim: what you say about:
it's all about the convention. How well organised will it be? Will it attract the biggest names in magic? Will the championship be staged in optimal conditions and will the performers, the audience and the ART be treated with the utmost respect?
The club bidding on the next WCM has been organizing for the past four years the "Masters of Magic" convention: http://www.mastersofmagic.it/ in the North of Italy (in a city that, sadly, doesn't have enough hotels to host the number of visitors to FISM...). This convention has attracted the names of David Berglas, Juan Tamariz, Rene' Lavand, David Blaine, Cyril Takayama, John Thompson, David Williamson, Max Maven, Uri Geller, Dani DaOrtiz, JC Sum, Franz Harary, Brett Daniels and many, many others. The shows have all been held in theatres where also the competitions have been performed. A number of cameras have been provided for the close-up performances and the audience really enjoyed the events. The past two years, the Masters of Magic convention was completely sold out a month before the opening! Yes, most of the attendees were Italian and French - which is why it doesn't seem anybody outside Europe knows it :( In addition, the gala shows have been directed by Arturo Brachetti and have proved some of the best magic galas I've ever seen (and I've been attending magic conventions for 30 years...) as one of Arturo's skills is the ability to stage and organize a number of different acts (ask Ed Alonzo, for example...).
In addition to all this: Rimini is the touristic centre on the Adriatic, popular with Italian, German and British tourists and full of attractions. It's a nice town that thrives on tourism and attracts hundreds of thousands visitors each year. I've been holidaying there in the past and it's a lovely place - again, probably not well known outside Europe, but definitely a great place where to host a magic convention.
Hope this helps, all the best,
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Re: FISM 2015 - Italy vs Korea
Some of the FISM 2012 "star performers" are being put up at the Gresham Hotel.
One of the bonus features as reported by a past guest
"Towels replaced every day and room hoovered"
That's just too funny.
One of the bonus features as reported by a past guest
"Towels replaced every day and room hoovered"
That's just too funny.