Hank Lee
Re: Hank Lee
I never suggested the staff had anything to do with the 500K crime and they probably knew absolutely nothing about it until it came to light.
I was referring to all the other complaints about the shop concerning goods not arriving and excessive postal charges.
Surely the front line staff handling the phonecalls and emails would be aware about constant complaints about non-delivery of goods? Wouldn't they?
I was referring to all the other complaints about the shop concerning goods not arriving and excessive postal charges.
Surely the front line staff handling the phonecalls and emails would be aware about constant complaints about non-delivery of goods? Wouldn't they?
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Re: Hank Lee
OK, I'm just referring to the crime. The staff have become collateral damage, and I hate to see them get dragged into this theft.
The other complaints are a whole other issue. Who knows?
The other complaints are a whole other issue. Who knows?
- Ryan Matney
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Re: Hank Lee
That's a mighty high horse you are on theLarry.
Like I said, I don't excuse the crime or even justify it but this shop is something that has been a part of a lot of our lives for a LONG time and I just wanted to make sense of it.
Most of us here are not so dumb that we can not condemn the act and question his motives at the same time.
Does your holy attitude extend to family members and friends too? If your kid or brother makes a mistake, do you not even ask why he did such a thing? "Get away from me now, I'll hear no explanations!"
And seriously, everyone that does business with a criminal is no better than the criminal? This is very intolerant and black and white. It's a rediculous statement. Nobody can pay for their crime with jail time or any other means asserted by the law enforcement? You can never let it go?
I got news for you, you better research completely every movie you watch, every book you read, and every cd you buy.
There are writers who are criminals and you could be supporting them. There are loads of musicians that have been convicted and you may have unknowingly contributed to their legal aid. I can name a director or two that was convicted of child molestation, if you have watched their movies, I must assume you support this behavior by your way of thinking.
Hell, I would be afraid to eat out anywhere. The short order cook may have just got out of prison.
I hope you are living up to the morals you preach. I certainly could not.
Like I said, I don't excuse the crime or even justify it but this shop is something that has been a part of a lot of our lives for a LONG time and I just wanted to make sense of it.
Most of us here are not so dumb that we can not condemn the act and question his motives at the same time.
Does your holy attitude extend to family members and friends too? If your kid or brother makes a mistake, do you not even ask why he did such a thing? "Get away from me now, I'll hear no explanations!"
And seriously, everyone that does business with a criminal is no better than the criminal? This is very intolerant and black and white. It's a rediculous statement. Nobody can pay for their crime with jail time or any other means asserted by the law enforcement? You can never let it go?
I got news for you, you better research completely every movie you watch, every book you read, and every cd you buy.
There are writers who are criminals and you could be supporting them. There are loads of musicians that have been convicted and you may have unknowingly contributed to their legal aid. I can name a director or two that was convicted of child molestation, if you have watched their movies, I must assume you support this behavior by your way of thinking.
Hell, I would be afraid to eat out anywhere. The short order cook may have just got out of prison.
I hope you are living up to the morals you preach. I certainly could not.
Get the Dirty Work - Available now at http://www.ryanmatneymagic.com
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Re: Hank Lee
El Harvey Oswald wrote:Jim: What are some of those less serious crimes that there's a generally "less accusatory" attitude toward? Or is it just people who don't restate the obvious, that stealing is a bad thing, not a good thing?
Mostly anything associated with exposure of magic secrets, copyright infringement, pirating of magic media - ebooks and DVDs, and the like. I'm not saying that these things aren't deserving of our concern and even disgust; I agree. Yet I dont remember ever seeing so many posts saying we should feel sadness or understanding of such offenses, most of which paled when compared to the sizable theft that Hank has pled guilty to committing. I've seen posts calling for jail time, fines, and even finding and beating of idiots selling copies of magic products.
And yet here we have clear cut old-fashioned theft and fraud by a long-time magic dealer, not to mention the lengths he went to try to deceive the federal investigators with contrived invoices and reports, and I see posts calling for understanding. Then he had the temerity to publish a blog post just this past Friday saying that he was told about "some wild rumors about Hank Lee's Magic Factory..." and implying strongly that the rumors were false and we had nothing to worry about when ordering there..
BTW, I did not put words into anyone's mouth; just stated my opinion. Maybe it's because I didn't know Hank and never made a purchase there - I had no opinion about him before all this. I just found the expressions of sympathy a bit surprising, that's all.
Thank you.
Jim
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Re: Hank Lee
Fair points -- especially the histrionics about "exposure." I hadn't considered that, but you're right; it is an unflattering juxtaposition. Thanks for the thoughtful response.
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Re: Hank Lee
Hank Lee's Magic Shop is poorly run, is known for bad customer service, sells items it doesn't have in stock, "mysteriously" looses packages repeatedly, and over-charges on shipping. This is why his business was doing poorly, not because of pressure from online retailers. Am I supposed to feel sorry for a business that was failing because they could no longer rely on the blind support of people in a 90-mile radius to shop there because they were the only game in town? Well, I don't.
And just so we're aware, the motivation behind some crimes is completely irrelevant. If you steal a loaf of bread then maybe it becomes about what the motivation is. If you steal $4000+, 134 times from someone, then you're an a-hole
And just so we're aware, the motivation behind some crimes is completely irrelevant. If you steal a loaf of bread then maybe it becomes about what the motivation is. If you steal $4000+, 134 times from someone, then you're an a-hole
Re: Hank Lee
Interesting statement from the article linked to above:
Levy's plea agreement, filed in U.S. District Court in Boston Friday, calls for a freeze on his assets.
Really, you'd have to be nuts to do any business whatsoever with Hank Lee at this point.
Leaving the web site up, and open for business may be an attempt to imply normality, and that "all is well"..... but the optics are blatantly that everybody involved with Hank Lee (whether they knew anything about his criminal exploits or not) is in complete denial as to the true ramifications of the bosses criminal actions.
Levy's plea agreement, filed in U.S. District Court in Boston Friday, calls for a freeze on his assets.
Really, you'd have to be nuts to do any business whatsoever with Hank Lee at this point.
Leaving the web site up, and open for business may be an attempt to imply normality, and that "all is well"..... but the optics are blatantly that everybody involved with Hank Lee (whether they knew anything about his criminal exploits or not) is in complete denial as to the true ramifications of the bosses criminal actions.
- erdnasephile
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Re: Hank Lee
I find it ironic that the person most financially harmed by the incident has showed the most grace in his response to it.
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Re: Hank Lee
erdnasephile wrote:I find it ironic that the person most financially harmed by the incident has showed the most grace in his response to it.
I got to meet RG over the weekend (thanks, Joe and Brad), and while I didn't speak with him for very long, he is a decent, nice, down-to-earth guy (with a lovely wife).
Proof that you don't have to be a jerk to be successful.
Re: Hank Lee
the Larry wrote: By my accounting Hank Lee has damaged the magic community by several million dollars. Nice guy eh?
For Pete's sake, Larry, just call the guy. Yell at him and get it out of your system. It's obvious you have some sort of [self-righteous] axe to grind. Ground. Done.
"The gnomes' ambition is handicapped by laziness." Adapted from Charles Bukowski, and clearly evident at http://www.gnominal.com
- Dustin Stinett
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Re: Hank Lee
The cat is out of the bag as to RGs identity. However, out of courtesy to him and his familyremembering that he is a victim in this crimeit is asked that when referencing him in any posts that you stick to the RG label. This would be greatly appreciated by him, his family, and the Genii Forum.
Thanks,
Dustin
Thanks,
Dustin
Re: Hank Lee
You want GREAT SERVICE VISIT Denny & Lee ..PERIOD !
I have Never had a bad experience w/ the man , Great service , Knows his S--T !! and WILL give you the time of day ....if you know your's !
You simply cant ask any more from a REAL PRO MAGIC Dealer .
Denny ( a Class act ! ) & Babe ( Ds lovable sidekick ) would never treat customer like this.
Michael Lee ( NO relation to HL )
I have Never had a bad experience w/ the man , Great service , Knows his S--T !! and WILL give you the time of day ....if you know your's !
You simply cant ask any more from a REAL PRO MAGIC Dealer .
Denny ( a Class act ! ) & Babe ( Ds lovable sidekick ) would never treat customer like this.
Michael Lee ( NO relation to HL )
- Dustin Stinett
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Re: Hank Lee
And don't forget about Magic, Inc., Steven's Magic Emporium, The Magic Apple, The Trick Shop, and many other B&M shops that do a fine job for their customers.
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Re: Hank Lee
Why do we have to be sad for one or the other?
I feel bad for his victims, I feel bad for him, I feel bad for his family.
In Dallas recently a young man was killed by a group of teenagers. They were trying to steal his iPod. The young man refused and the teenagers shoved him onto the rail tracks. His foot got caught and he was killed by an oncoming train.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/03/20/thir ... ail-death/
The youngest person charged was twelve years old. I feel bad for him and his family. I feel horrible for the victim and his family. I understand and accept that the punishment is just; however, that doesn't make it any less tragic.
While the contrast between cases is extreme, the comparison still stands.
It's a bad deal for everyone involved. The victim(s), Hank and his family, the staff, the magic community.
And by the way....I'm not saying anyone should order from Hank. I think that would be foolish.
I feel bad for his victims, I feel bad for him, I feel bad for his family.
In Dallas recently a young man was killed by a group of teenagers. They were trying to steal his iPod. The young man refused and the teenagers shoved him onto the rail tracks. His foot got caught and he was killed by an oncoming train.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/03/20/thir ... ail-death/
The youngest person charged was twelve years old. I feel bad for him and his family. I feel horrible for the victim and his family. I understand and accept that the punishment is just; however, that doesn't make it any less tragic.
While the contrast between cases is extreme, the comparison still stands.
It's a bad deal for everyone involved. The victim(s), Hank and his family, the staff, the magic community.
And by the way....I'm not saying anyone should order from Hank. I think that would be foolish.
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Re: Hank Lee
JordanB wrote:I'm not saying anyone should order from Hank. I think that would be foolish.
I think we have a point we can all agree with :-)
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Re: Hank Lee
JordanB wrote:Why do we have to be sad for one or the other?
I feel bad for his victims, I feel bad for him, I feel bad for his family.
In Dallas recently a young man was killed by a group of teenagers. They were trying to steal his iPod. The young man refused and the teenagers shoved him onto the rail tracks. His foot got caught and he was killed by an oncoming train.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/03/20/thir ... ail-death/
The youngest person charged was twelve years old. I feel bad for him and his family. I feel horrible for the victim and his family. I understand and accept that the punishment is just; however, that doesn't make it any less tragic.
While the contrast between cases is extreme, the comparison still stands.
It's a bad deal for everyone involved. The victim(s), Hank and his family, the staff, the magic community.
And by the way....I'm not saying anyone should order from Hank. I think that would be foolish.
Oh, you must have read a different article than I did. Which article was it where it stated that Hank Lee is 12-years-old and accidentally stole that half million dollars? Because if that's the case, then you're right, there were extenuating circumstances.
Crime victims deserve our support. Occasionally, perpetrators deserve our pity and support as well. But that doesn't extend to all criminals. We don't have to say, "Oh, that poor rapist. He was just lonely!" We all seem to understand this when there is an article posted here about someone putting his hand down the birthday boy's pants. We all condemn that. Yet there's a good likelihood that something happened to the perpetrator of that crime when he was young. Tough. Bad things happen to people, and people are put in tough spots, but that doesn't excuse you disrespecting someone else or their property.
But Hank broke that social contract so now people can and should be allowed to come here and tee-off on him. He doesn't need pity, he needs to be put back in line. Understand that he was lying to you up until the day these allegations finally came out. Not that people should be needlessly cruel to him, but the way society evolves is that when people do bad things, they get shamed. And then people are less likely to do bad things. For years now, threads have been written about Hank Lee on the Cafe only to get deleted. Perhaps if a light had been allowed to shine on his sketchy business practices a few years ago he would have felt pressure to change his ways and would never succumbed to the temptation that got him in this awful predicament that he put himself into.
Re: Hank Lee
I never mentioned extenuating circumstances, nor did I mention the words pity or support in the quoted post. You are drawing things that are not there and they are not intended to be there.
I never said there were extenuating circumstances in either case that I mentioned above. In fact I said the punishment was just; however, that does not make it less tragic.
I never said there were extenuating circumstances in either case that I mentioned above. In fact I said the punishment was just; however, that does not make it less tragic.
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Re: Hank Lee
Richard Kaufman wrote:Times are very tough for brick and mortar magic dealers, and ALL magic dealers. The desperation brought on my the possibility of economic catastrophe sometimes leads men to criminal acts, or suicide. If Hank Lee is guilty, then a little good old pity might be in order. There's a difference, albeit one not readily seen (and many would refuse to recognize) between stealing money to keep your business float and stealing money to buy sports cars, a fancy house, and drugs.
I do not know the details here, but I will give Hank Lee the benefit of the doubt and hope that he was doing this just to keep his business alive and pay his bills. If he is found guilty, or has already plead guilty, then he will face the punishment of the court. After that punishment he will have paid his debt to society and will be able to start anew. He also has a family, and they must be in our thoughts as well.
Richard, you'd make a great defense attorney.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, he committed the rape not because he's violent and hates women, but he was really horny. So, let's give the guy a break".
- IrishMagicNews
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Re: Hank Lee
bagelsandlox wrote:Richard, you'd make a great defense attorney.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, he committed the rape not because he's violent and hates women, but he was really horny. So, let's give the guy a break".
I understand that this is a passionate subject but the above allusion is inexcusable.
Brendan
Brendan
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Shenanigans the irish magic convention 2-4 May 2014 Dublin
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News, Lectures, Societies & Magic in Ireland
http://www.IrishMagicNews.com
Shenanigans the irish magic convention 2-4 May 2014 Dublin
http://www.IrishMagicConvention.com
Re: Hank Lee
[img:left]http://psychicgameshow.com/Hank.html[/img]
Edit: I thought that the image would apear here but not so. If you click on the link you will see something of Gary Dunn's.
Edit: I thought that the image would apear here but not so. If you click on the link you will see something of Gary Dunn's.
- IrishMagicNews
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Re: Hank Lee
That is very funny. For those not bothered to click through.
Brendan
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Shenanigans the irish magic convention 2-4 May 2014 Dublin
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Shenanigans the irish magic convention 2-4 May 2014 Dublin
http://www.IrishMagicConvention.com
Re: Hank Lee
M.Lee wrote:You want GREAT SERVICE VISIT Denny & Lee ..PERIOD !
Seconded!!!
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Re: Hank Lee
For many people, their only frame of reference with regard to Hank Lee was to be charged for items that would never ship.
Within that frame of reference, this story appears neither shocking nor tragic.
Within that frame of reference, this story appears neither shocking nor tragic.
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Re: Hank Lee
To Gary Kosnitzky- Richard Kaufman doesn't need my defense... we've only met a couple of times and in the first instance didn't get along too well. BUT- over the years he has invested time, money, effort and probably blood, sweat and tears. That's what business owners do. I know. Without his efforts a valued piece of magic history would have been in the dustbin years ago.
Your attack on Richard for expressing empathy (a quality in dramatically short supply in America today) is over the top. I hope he does shred your credit card info and cancels your subscription. I'll scrape up a little extra cash and pay him for one of the lifetime subscriptions to make up for it.
Your attack on Richard for expressing empathy (a quality in dramatically short supply in America today) is over the top. I hope he does shred your credit card info and cancels your subscription. I'll scrape up a little extra cash and pay him for one of the lifetime subscriptions to make up for it.
Dave
Douglas~Wayne Illusioneering
Douglas~Wayne Illusioneering
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Re: Hank Lee
IrishMagicNews wrote:That is very funny. For those not bothered to click through.
Is this a new take on an old effect? Run Hank Run?
- Bob Cunningham
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Re: Hank Lee
Gary, I have from the first news of this crime, said that it is a crime, that it is consistent with conclusions I had previously reached about Hank's character and that it would be VERY unwise to continue to do business with him.
However, can you not see that a person who knows Hank might see things in a less black and white fashion? If you had a friend (or business associate), would you not at least want to speak with them before condemning them.
I don't know why Hank stole this money - and neither do you. Motives make a difference in ethics and law. That is why we distinguish between murder and manslaughter.
When you say, "Richard was not expressing empathy. It's about being fake for money." You don't know that either. The same mind reading handicap that keeps you from knowing Hank's motives prevent you from knowing Richard's motives.
You will make your own decision, but I find life works better if I judge people by their actions and let a higher power deal with their motives.
However, can you not see that a person who knows Hank might see things in a less black and white fashion? If you had a friend (or business associate), would you not at least want to speak with them before condemning them.
I don't know why Hank stole this money - and neither do you. Motives make a difference in ethics and law. That is why we distinguish between murder and manslaughter.
When you say, "Richard was not expressing empathy. It's about being fake for money." You don't know that either. The same mind reading handicap that keeps you from knowing Hank's motives prevent you from knowing Richard's motives.
You will make your own decision, but I find life works better if I judge people by their actions and let a higher power deal with their motives.
Re: Hank Lee
Looks like PayPal finally shut down Hank's account:
[img:left]http://i.imgur.com/wM4wZ.jpg[/img]
[img:left]http://i.imgur.com/wM4wZ.jpg[/img]
- Dustin Stinett
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Re: Hank Lee
Mr. Kosnitzky has been given some time to cool down.
- Kevin Connolly
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Re: Hank Lee
Nice screen cap. Ouch!
Please visit my website.
http://houdinihimself.com/
I buy,sell + trade Houdini, Hardeen items.
http://houdinihimself.com/
I buy,sell + trade Houdini, Hardeen items.
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Re: Hank Lee
What can you get for $1.00?
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Re: Hank Lee
Oddly Bent wrote:What can you get for $1.00?
He just showed you :)
Re: Hank Lee
I thought this was the beginning of a Hank Lee support fund to help him pay back half a million dollar. At least that would show true friendship for those who still like him.
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Re: Hank Lee
"Originally Posted By: JordanB
I'm not saying anyone should order from Hank. I think that would be foolish.
I think we have a point we can all agree with :-)"
I don't agree. I suspect it would be extremely low risk ordering from him right now. If ever there were strong disincentives to criminal conduct and equally strong incentives to demonstrate that his business can still function, it's now.
Not ordering from him as a reprisal for the stealing makes sense; but that's not the same thing as not ordering because of a genuine risk.
I'm not saying anyone should order from Hank. I think that would be foolish.
I think we have a point we can all agree with :-)"
I don't agree. I suspect it would be extremely low risk ordering from him right now. If ever there were strong disincentives to criminal conduct and equally strong incentives to demonstrate that his business can still function, it's now.
Not ordering from him as a reprisal for the stealing makes sense; but that's not the same thing as not ordering because of a genuine risk.
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Re: Hank Lee
"By my accounting Hank Lee has damaged the magic community by several million dollars. Nice guy eh?"
Some people are out some money; one person apparently a lot of money. However, the "magic community" is no less strong (or no weaker, depending on your perspective).
There aren't all that many ways to express the fairly obvious point that it's wrong to steal, that we assume retailers aren't stealing from us, that there should be proportional consequences, etc. And after a certain point, those who persist in aligning themselves with the anti-stealing super majority might cause others to wonder what motivates multiple posts as to such a self-evident concept. We get it; you're not sad for Hank Lee; you identify with the victims; so you must be utterly honest yourself.
Some people are out some money; one person apparently a lot of money. However, the "magic community" is no less strong (or no weaker, depending on your perspective).
There aren't all that many ways to express the fairly obvious point that it's wrong to steal, that we assume retailers aren't stealing from us, that there should be proportional consequences, etc. And after a certain point, those who persist in aligning themselves with the anti-stealing super majority might cause others to wonder what motivates multiple posts as to such a self-evident concept. We get it; you're not sad for Hank Lee; you identify with the victims; so you must be utterly honest yourself.
Re: Hank Lee
I personally think ordering from Hank Lee would be unfair to all decent magic dealers. Why should he get the business over all the other dealers? I can't come up with any halfway good reason to justify that, unless you are related to Hank or are such a close friend that his criminal actions have little bearing on your friendship with him.
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Re: Hank Lee
Bob Cunningham wrote:Motives make a difference in ethics and law. That is why we distinguish between murder and manslaughter.
You're mistaken. Motives sometimes make a difference in ethics and law.
I understand that sometimes you're drunk outside of a bar and you hit a guy and he ends up falling and cracking open his head on the curb and there's a difference between that and premeditated murder.
But, just out of curiosity, what would be a reasonable motive for stealing half a million dollars?
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Re: Hank Lee
Andrew Charles wrote: But, just out of curiosity, what would be a reasonable motive for stealing half a million dollars?
In the extreme, a man who embezzles $500,000 to ransom his daughter from kidnappers is in a different legal/ethical position than a man who embezzles $500,000 to go on his dream vacation ;-)
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Re: Hank Lee
Bob Cunningham wrote:Andrew Charles wrote: But, just out of curiosity, what would be a reasonable motive for stealing half a million dollars?
In the extreme, a man who embezzles $500,000 to ransom his daughter from kidnappers is in a different legal/ethical position than a man who embezzles $500,000 to go on his dream vacation ;-)
You give the winky emoticon, but you're right, you need to get into some Die Hard Part 9 scenarios to come up with a justification for it. Which just goes to show there is no justification for it.