Real Secrets Trick of the Month Club...

[mrgoat]

It doesn't matter where they are from. They have no choice but to obey the laws of this country and each state if they want to conduct business here.

Tell that to The Pirate Bay.

[Jeff Eline]

I asked for my money back and haven't received it yet. It's only been about 24 hrs (which is plenty of time to refund via paypal) but I'll hold off for another day before taking further actions.

[Dustin Stinett]

Tell that to The Pirate Bay.

Allow me to rephrase: If they wish to conduct a legal business here, they have no choice but to obey the law.

[AJM]

I responded to 'the e-mail' about 3 hours ago requesting a refund be processed by close of business today and have heard nothing since - I await developments with breath suitably baited.

While we don't know who's behind this clandestine operation, I suspect the reputations of the contributors could be tarnished somewhat by association.

Andrew

[Richard Kaufman]

They didn't use the expression "get off the boat." I apologize if I gave that impression.

I don't publish the contents of private emails, so I won't print the bulk of the message I received from Real Secrets, but here is the actual line regarding my need to accept auto-renew:

"On a final note, even you, Mr. Kaufman, will need to reactivate the auto renewal option if you would like your application for membership to be valid."

I was addressed by my first name at the start of the message, so the "Mr. Kaufman" usage above is tongue-in-cheek.

I haven't yet made up my mind what to do.

Dustin, did you read the article at the first link Kosnitzky posted? I believe it states that there are NO laws against auto-renewal, but that this case (which was joined by many states) changed the way Time Inc. did business and forced them to repay money to lots of folks. But the amount of money is small change to them considering how much they probably made overall as a result their business policy.

What surprises me is that whoever the Real Secrets Team is, they obviously have invested both money and time, and secured material from a lot of well-known names, but someone in there is completely tone-deaf regarding customer relations.

Forcing people into the auto-renew situation does not build interest, excitement, and good customer relations. It creates suspicion, resentment, and annoys potential customers. That's one of the reasons I've never implemented auto-renewal with Genii. Whether you're going to subscribe for a second year is a decision you should be free to make 12 months after you subscribe for the first year. If people want to subscribe longer, I offer 2 and 3 year subscriptions. But we don't do auto-renew.

[Marco Pusterla]

Their hosting is in the US

Indeed... Utah :) . But Bluehost is just a hosting provider... it has nothing to do with RealSecrets other than renting them web space for as little as $6.95/month. If RealSecrets doesn't send magazines or anything, the hosting company will not be responsible for what their customers do (may have some responsability for web content, but I doubt there will be any legal responsability for non-web content).

[Roger M.]

Hey Real Secrets folks!......... why do you want the auto-renewal left turned on?

Very simple question......requires a very simple answer.

[billmccloskey]

Well, I can weigh in here, since I create these types of sites for a living. Auto-renewal is necessary in order to avoid a administrative nightmare at renewal time but I have never heard of anyone requiring that you keep it on to be a member. That is crazy and would never join any site that required you to keep auto-renewal on. My suggestion, everyone cancel, request your money back via paypal and they will get the message.

[AJM]

What a diifference a day (or two) makes.

These guys were the mutt's nuts a day or two ago - seems now to be turning into something of a PR disaster.

Andrew

[Ian Kendall]

I'll say it again; I'm looking forward to this, I like the excitement of getting a new toy each month for the princely sum of two pounds a week (which is what the quarterly subs amount to).

I know that most of the things that arrive probably won't suit me; they become a study in method and construction. 95% of what I have in my boxes and bookshelves doesn't suit me but I still read it for the same reason.

Auto renewal is a time saver - although it's a tad unorthodox I can see the thinking behind it. If you don't want to risk so much in one go, take the quarterly option where you have the chance to bail after the first couple of months. I'm not convinced that I will be cancelling, unless the new toys are _total_ [censored].

I think people are working themselves up into a frenzy of righteous indignation and ignoring the wider picture - new toys. Which is, after all, what magic is all about...

[mrgoat]

auto-renewing isn't slightly illegal. the adult industry almost relies on it nowadays.

[Ian Kendall]

OK, now I'm concerned about the monthly new toys...

[Simone M]

no matter what the quality of the product is, vague businesses like this shouldn't be supported. I mean, you are dealing with someone who doesn't even want to put his name on his product. I'm not saying it's going to be a scam or what, but obviously they don't seem to have the heart in the right place.
I guess that do what you can to not legitimate this lack of transparency in our world comes before getting a new toy each month.
By the way, auto-renewal shouldn't be illegal, but it's just dishonest business. Cannibalism is not illegal aswell, but that doesn't make it alrite.

[erdnasephile]

Their hosting is in the US

Indeed... Utah :) . But Bluehost is just a hosting provider... it has nothing to do with RealSecrets other than renting them web space for as little as $6.95/month.

Whois lists the following information about the domain registration (the address is for Tucows, Inc which provides domain names. Not sure who the phone belongs to) :

WHOIS information for realsecrets.org :

Domain ID:D163857196-LROR
Domain Name:REALSECRETS.ORG
Created On:13-Nov-2011 17:47:51 UTC
Last Updated On:12-Feb-2012 23:53:27 UTC
Expiration Date:13-Nov-2012 17:47:51 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:tuUHkVhnrX5DuU5S
Registrant Name:Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0129395736
Registrant Organization:Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0129395736
Registrant Street1:96 Mowat Ave
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Toronto
Registrant State/Province:ON
Registrant Postal Code:M6K3M1
Registrant Country:CA
Registrant Phone:+1.4165385457
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:realsecrets.org@contactprivacy.com
Admin ID:tuUHkVhnrX5DuU5S
Admin Name:Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0129395736
Admin Organization:Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0129395736
Admin Street1:96 Mowat Ave
Admin Street2:
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Toronto
Admin State/Province:ON
Admin Postal Code:M6K3M1
Admin Country:CA
Admin Phone:+1.4165385457
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:realsecrets.org@contactprivacy.com
Tech ID:tuUHkVhnrX5DuU5S
Tech Name:Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0129395736
Tech Organization:Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0129395736
Tech Street1:96 Mowat Ave
Tech Street2:
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Toronto
Tech State/Province:ON
Tech Postal Code:M6K3M1
Tech Country:CA
Tech Phone:+1.4165385457
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:realsecrets.org@contactprivacy.com
Name Server:NS1.BLUEHOST.COM
Name Server:NS2.BLUEHOST.COM
DNSSEC:Unsigned

[Dustin Stinett]

Dustin, did you read the article at the first link Kosnitzky posted? I believe it states that there are NO laws against auto-renewal, but that this case (which was joined by many states) changed the way Time Inc. did business and forced them to repay money to lots of folks.

I didnt feel the need to because of this line in the agreement: the settlement serves to return money to consumers and to penalize Time for conduct the States argued violated consumer fraud laws.

Though Time didnt admit to any wrongdoing, they still lost the argument. That tells me that they know they at least bent the hell out of existing law. Its been five years, so I suspect that there has been clarification of the statutes IF the states felt the need to.

I did not mean to imply that that auto-renew is against the law, just the manner in which they are going about it might be and anyone concerned should contact their states authorities.

As far as Im concerned, they can do whatever they want, including alienating their prospective customer and contributor base.

Dustin

[Bill Marquardt]

Please read the following quote from the initial announcement for this product, as printed in a PM from Mr. Brooks: (italics are mine)

"Platinum Exclusive Membership

Special 12-month Platinum Exclusive Membership one-time annual fee of $144 USD within USA ($150 USD outside of the USA).

Exclusive Membership includes; special secret yearly subscriber bonuses including a never-before-published effect and custom gimmicks from Michael Weber only available to Platinum Members. Recurs yearly automatically. Go to www.realsecrets.org to subscribe today!"

Do the words "one-time annual fee" mean anything? Do the words "Recurs yearly automatically" in any way imply that a subscriber cannot cancel the automatic recurring charges?

These guys should have hired an attorney to review their ad copy. Then maybe none of this contoversy would have happened. As I told the Team: I am not angry, just disappointed and upset.

[Tom Dobrowolski]

The thing that is disappointing is is for me in all of this is Murphy's Magic involvement. They're taking money out of the pockets of brick and mortar magic shops. First L&L now Murphy's. Many b&m dealers are holding on by their fingertips. This type of "marketing" by the largest magic supplier in the world could be the final nail in the coffin to many of these dealers who can't compete with something like this. Very disappointing. I won't support it.

[Judah Vee]

Well this latest developement has me a bit skittish now. I have, however, decided to ride this wave for at least the first year. I already paid for it, might as well. The names attached are what interest me most, and since I imagine they don't want a tarnished image (like two gentlemen across the pond have gotten) I am going to trust in their reputation. I can only hope and remain optimistic.

Worse thing that could happen right now is I lose $144, receive no effects, cancel my renewal , bad mouth the associated magicians, and take my licks from the I Told You So-ers.... I think I can handle that

Judah

[Smurf]

Since no one has been charged any renewal fees, why all the fuss about cancelling autorenewal now? The autorenewal won't show up for 12-months for the annual members. I'll worry about it then. The announcement is that they have 12-months of material ready now and that's all I've paid for. Let's see how it goes. All the concerned citizens can sit back and wait and see. That's fine for those getting in as the material will have more value with less owners.

[Mark Collier]

why all the fuss about cancelling autorenewal now?

I think that is a fair question to ask of those that refuse to be named.

[Smurf]

Don't we already know the answer? This is the way they have setup their program.

Why all the melodramatic hand-wringing over this? People joining then cancelling. People complaining their messages aren't answered quickly enough. People signing up with autorenewal then cancelling that part of it. Sheesh! You would think people signed away their first-born to Rumpelstiltskin or something. With PayPal and credit card companies we have parties involved who can arbitrate disputes and they do protect their customers. We don't need to start disputes one year in advance.

[Mark Collier]

I think it's fair to have skepticism.

They won't reveal who they are. There is very little information about what is being offered. I suspect that at the end of the year the value won't exceed that of a decent magic book (or a year of Genii) but costs three times the price. I could be wrong but the whole thing seems suspect to me.

Is it one trick a month? Do we get a gimmick or prop each month? They aren't saying. They aren't even saying who 'they' are.

Magic has a long history of hyperbolic marketing resulting in buyers remorse.

Traditionally, automatic renewal has been an option. We have come to expect that. Now we have a new product from an anonymous source that wants to narrow the window in which we get to cancel a recurring payment. It doesnt inspire confidence.

Some of this reminds me of the controversy surrounding the release of Michael Weber's book. People bought the shrink wrapped book only to find a caveat on the inside that permission was not granted to perform the effects professionally.

Full disclosure and transparency are conducive to trust. It seems all three are lacking here.

[Richard Kaufman]

Re the notice in Life Savers, it hasn't stopped anyone from performing the material and has never been enforced that I'm aware of.

Whether it was enforceable by law was a question when I published the book decades ago and it's still a question today.

The only thing it may have prevented is someone else putting the material on a DVD or in a book in any sort of compilation, such as my own Knack Magic Tricks.

[Richard Kaufman]

"auto-renewing isn't slightly illegal. the adult industry almost relies on it nowadays."

Damian, if that's the case, how do you explain the result of the lawsuit brought by all those states against Time, Inc.?

[Bill Marquardt]

So what's the big deal about auto pay? That is what we are also asking the Team. If the product is good, we will renew at the right time.

Relevant digression - I am a member of the Sam's Club warehouse store. I save tons of money there each year. One time I received a notice that my membership fee was due. Shortly afterwards I received a notice that it had been paid. Later I received a letter from Sam's Credit saying my payment was overdue and I would be charged a late fee. I went to the store and inquired about the bill. I was told that I had signed up for automatic payment and that the fee had been charged to my credit card, so my membership was up to date but the payment had not been received by the Sam's Club Credit Card department. Are you following this? I paid the credit card off at the membership desk which authenticated my membership fee that had already been marked "paid" even though it really wasn't.

I don't like auto pay. Okay?

[Mark Collier]

Re the notice in Life Savers, it hasn't stopped anyone from performing the material and has never been enforced that I'm aware of.

Agreed. I am only reminded of it because it seemed to be exploring the boundaries of accepted practices. I feel the notice should have been on the outside of the book and mentioned in any advertisements. It is moot since it hasn't been and probably isn't able to be enforced.

It is the lack of disclosure and transparency that is reminiscent (for me) with what's going on here. Accepted practices are being challenged. That is not necessarily a bad thing but I don't like the required commitment to an anonymous source for a product that isn't described.

As I said, it can be fine to try new ways to market something. Max Maven did it with "Protocols of the Elders of Magic". The book was described very cryptically and in the end, some were happy and some were not. The point is everyone knew who was selling it and it was sold in limited quantities virtually guaranteeing that it would hold it's value.

That's not the case with this latest venture. We don't know what were getting. We don't know who is getting our money and we're supposed to enter into a prolonged monetary commitment.

[Dustin Stinett]

why all the fuss about cancelling autorenewal now?

Its quite easy to turn that around and ask that question of the company: Why is it a requirement of membership for the first year?

Moreover, why doesnt the apparent fact that auto-renewal is a requirement of membership addressed in their terms as required by California State Law? ( 17602, 1 and 3.)

I dont see it below. All I see is that it recurs yearly automatically, not that, even when given a clear opt-out option in the payment sectionas required by lawmembership will be denied should the opt-out option be exercised.

PLATINUM MEMBERSHIP (USA)

12-month Platinum Exclusive Membership within USA. Exclusive Membership includes special secret yearly subscriber bonuses including a never-before-published effect and custom gimmicks from Michael Weber only available to Platinum Members. Recurs yearly automatically.

Terms and Conditions

Before we can process and approve your membership you must read, understand, and agree to the following Terms and Conditions without reservation. This is required for membership.

You agree not to describe, share, or post videos of any of the effects or methods shared in the Real Secrets community. Our goal is to protect these secrets for you and all of the other members. You understand and agree that you cannot share your membership number with anyone else.

You understand that you are responsible to keep Real Secrets informed on any changes on your contact information. We will not send back issues.

You agree that your membership may be canceled for any reason by Real Secrets and any existing prorated subscription will be reimbursed if you are not in violation of Terms and Conditions.

If any Terms and Conditions are violated you hereby understand that your membership will be immediately terminated and you will not be eligible for reimbursement on any existing time left in your subscription period.

By checking the box below you hereby acknowledge that you have read, understand, and agree to the above Terms and Conditions without reservation. Do NOT click here if you are unsure or do not agree.

[Dustin Stinett]

The thing that is disappointing is is for me in all of this is Murphy's Magic involvement. They're taking money out of the pockets of brick and mortar magic shops. First L&L now Murphy's. Many b&m dealers are holding on by their fingertips. This type of "marketing" by the largest magic supplier in the world could be the final nail in the coffin to many of these dealers who can't compete with something like this. Very disappointing. I won't support it.

Is there any evidence that Murphys is involved (versus just one of their employees)?

While I was at the Castle yesterday, there was an impromptu roundtable talk in the library between about six people about this. One gentleman had an interesting take that would remove this heat from Murphys: He theorizes that the effects that will be a part of this service are the kind that would be too easily knocked off should they be marketed as single effects. So, in this way, Murphysif they are indeed involvedis protecting the creators of magic. This assures that they will continue to create material that can be manufactured and marketed for shops to sell.

Dustin

[Pete McCabe]

In the case of Time magazine, wasn't the problem that they automatically renewed people's subscriptions without ever notifying them that they were going to? If so, that wouldn't apply here, as the autorenew is stated up front.

[Chance]

...."On a final note, even you, Mr. Kaufman, will need to reactivate the auto renewal option if you would like your application for membership to be valid."

The snark, it is strong with this one...

[Gary Kosnitzky]

I would like to think that the reason the name behind this is obviously left out of their website is because it has no 'star/selling power' rather than due to more sinister reasons.

This would be the first time that a well known, talented and trustworthy vendor doesn't want his name associated with his product.

I emailed them and received an automated response.
There is absolutely no customer service,only what seems to be a general contempt for the very same people who are trying to support them.

By the response I received to my inquiries I suspect that if we knew the 'real' name behind this, no one would subscribe.
That person's name is obviously the 'REAL SECRET'.

This may very well be a legitimate enterprise, with absoluetly no ill intentions, but the way they are launching this business is just stupid as well as appalling to me.

[Ted M]

Since turning off auto-renewal is not a violation of the stated Terms and Conditions, it effectively provides an escape hatch.

If I'm reading correctly, one can sign up for a year at the platinum rate and then effectively quit at any time, receiving a refund for all remaining issues, by turning off auto-renewal whenever one desires.

So maybe it's a feature, not a bug.

[Dustin Stinett]

In the case of Time magazine, wasn't the problem that they automatically renewed people's subscriptions without ever notifying them that they were going to? If so, that wouldn't apply here, as the autorenew is stated up front.

Hi Pete,

There were multiple issues with Time regarding their policies and practices, but its clearly that one which brought the whole issue to the attention of the attorneys general.

As noted, this document is not a statute, just a settlement.

But it is a clear shot across the bow andas I suspectedCalifornia addressed the issue subsequent to this settlement. The law is relatively short and quite clear. By a strict or liberal reading of the statute, the folks at this company might want to consider adjusting their policy so it aligns with (at least) California Law. They CAN require auto-renewal, they just need to make their automatic renewal offer terms or continuous service offer terms in a clear and conspicuous manner before the subscription or purchasing agreement is fulfilled. That means all the terms, not just the ones they want to include up front.

That note above comes from paragraph 1 of the law. Real Secrets do not state that auto-renewal is a requirement of membership, just that there is auto-renewal. Since the vehicle they use to accept payment has an opt-out option, its an easy argument to make that they should be required to declare this condition of their service. And paragraph 3 also has a compelling requirement: information regarding how to cancel in a manner that is capable of being retained by the consumer. I dont see that anywhere, just how the company can cancel. And again, since the system they use to accept funds has the opt-out option, it is not a stretch to say that this addresses that requirement and they (Real Secrets) should honor the choice, since they have absolutely nothing in their terms noting otherwise.

Ive gone over the last four congresses and have not found a bill that addresses this issue at a federal level, so that leaves it to the states at this time (Im assuming that had there already been a federal law in place, it would have been noted in the Iowa v Time settlement). That means as many as 50 different statutes. It would be much easier on this company if they just allow the opt-out across the board. (Im having visions of the pained looks in the faces of my companys legal and HR department associates going through all the US and Canadian laws they are required to know since ignorance of the law is not a defense.)

Dustin

http://law.onecle.com/california/business/17602.html

[Tom Dobrowolski]

The thing that is disappointing is is for me in all of this is Murphy's Magic involvement. They're taking money out of the pockets of brick and mortar magic shops. First L&L now Murphy's. Many b&m dealers are holding on by their fingertips. This type of "marketing" by the largest magic supplier in the world could be the final nail in the coffin to many of these dealers who can't compete with something like this. Very disappointing. I won't support it.

Is there any evidence that Murphys is involved (versus just one of their employees)?

While I was at the Castle yesterday, there was an impromptu roundtable talk in the library between about six people about this. One gentleman had an interesting take that would remove this heat from Murphys: He theorizes that the effects that will be a part of this service are the kind that would be too easily knocked off should they be marketed as single effects. So, in this way, Murphysif they are indeed involvedis protecting the creators of magic. This assures that they will continue to create material that can be manufactured and marketed for shops to sell.

Dustin

I know and like Tim Trono and have had great experiences personally in dealing with both Tim and Murphy's which is why this is surprising to me. To be fair I won't say anything further publicly at this time. I'll address any concerns I may have directly with the people involved rather than to speculate back and forth on a public forum.

[Ted M]

In case it suddenly changes, I just pointed archive.org at the site's page containing the Terms and Conditions so that information will be publicly archived in the Wayback Machine.

http://www.realsecrets.org/product/plat ... ership-usa

[Dustin Stinett]

Thanks Ted. And Tom, I'm with you on all counts.

Dustin

[Matthew Field]

The emails I've received from Real Secrets have been polite and yet firm. I like the idea behind the project, ao will subscribe with the auto-renewal option included.

This is (in the US) $12 a month. not a lot of dough. It will be interesting to see what they can provide at this price, delivered.

I'd like to make a plea that we tone down the wrath expressed on this Forum and await the March or April release.

For whatever reason, the RS people decided that auto-renew was the option they wanted (probably because they didn't want to risk failures to renew). It's understandable from the business perspective, but perhaps unwise in terms of customer service.

But the constant negatives here must be dishearteneing to people who are starting a new business, especially in the small world of magic. Without a product to write about, we are left with a small detail to harp on.

As I stated here before, many of the names associated with this project are good people whom I know personally. I wish them well and am looking forward to what will be coming!

Matt Field

[mrgoat]

"auto-renewing isn't slightly illegal. the adult industry almost relies on it nowadays."

Damian, if that's the case, how do you explain the result of the lawsuit brought by all those states against Time, Inc.?

I think the devil is in the detail. As long as it is clear, then it is legal.

I'm no lawyer, as well you know, but I do know that every single adult site has auto rebilling and has done for the last 10 years. WOuld have thought there would have been a case, and that visa and master card wouldn't allow it if it was illegal.

[Jeff Eline]

For completeness sake, I wanted to post that I did receive notice that a refund is being processed.

I respectfully expressed my disappointment in their mandatory auto rebilling policy. It seems very distrustful of customers who have just happily paid you almost $150. It's funny that they trust me to not release or talk about the monthly secrets being offered, but do not trust me to remember to pay them come renewal.

****
Damian: Do the adult paysites give the option of a non-recurring billing? Maybe at a slightly higher rate? I know other subscription sites I've signed up for do that.

[mrgoat]

****
Damian: Do the adult paysites give the option of a non-recurring billing? Maybe at a slightly higher rate? I know other subscription sites I've signed up for do that.

Indeed, that is how it works.

19.99 a month recurring
24.99 non recurring

or similar.

If you've got a good site and keep updating, people will rebill for years and years. I have one client with a customer who's been a member for about 6 years!