Real Secrets Trick of the Month Club...

[billmccloskey]

"But the constant negatives here must be dishearteneing to people who are starting a new business, especially in the small world of magic. Without a product to write about, we are left with a small detail to harp on."

Quite the opposite. Negatives are the only way for a small business to know if it is on the right track. A worse option is to see no one expressing why they dislike a service and just cancel without the ability to make changes. Negatives, as in feedback, are they only way a small business has of knowing what the customers are thinking.

As has been stated, there is nothing wrong with auto-renewal. It is the mandatory auto-renewal as a condition of membership that is troubling. Better the owners realize this now when it can be changed, then later when no one is talking about it, they are just unsubscribing.

[billmccloskey]

I should add that companies pay a lot of money to get the kind of feedback expressed in this thread. It is called a focus group. They are getting it for free.

[Mark Collier]

I should add that companies pay a lot of money to get the kind of feedback expressed in this thread. It is called a focus group. They are getting it for free.

Indeed. I have expressed skepticism but that doesn't mean I'm not on the fence about subscribing.

I would like to think that the reason the name behind this is obviously left out of their website is because it has no 'star/selling power'

I feel far more comfortable sending money to a verifiable name that is unfamiliar to me than an anonymous bank account.

The fact that Tom Stone spoke with Michael Weber about this and Max Maven has endorsed this is what helps mitigate my skepticism but I am still wary. If I do subscribe, you can bet that I will be putting the renewal date on my calender so I won't forget to make an informed decision about whether I am willing to be charged again.

[Richard Kaufman]

I've decided to give them the benefit of the doubt, though it certainly isn't because of the way they've handled this or the tone of the emails I've received (though the tone could just be because it's me).

So, it's into the pool feet first for two years. At least.

[Richard Kaufman]

Is there a thread about this over on The Magic Cafe?

[Dustin Stinett]

One final thing about sites/businesses that have auto-renew for their services (for example, antivirus programs like McAfee and Internet hosting sites like Network Solutionswhich have opt-out options): Have you ever actually read that gazillion-word-fine-print terms and conditions agreement that you click I agree on? Thats where all the jargonwritten by a lawyerthat covers the backside of the business on situations like this is located. It takes a tremendous amount of work to research and keep up with the laws by lawyers and their staff, and they are usually paid a nice fat hourly fee.

Im not a lawyer (though I am a very low-level volunteer public legislator), but I can read. While it is their choice what to do with the information, I researched Californias law for Real Secrets gratis. They are welcome.

Dustin

[Ian Kendall]

I read a EULA once. Once.

[Smurf]

There is a thread on the Cafe which started out as a general PM to everyone. The PM has turned into a thread but you have to get to it through your PM area. I don't know if another one has been created elsewhere. I've just been following that one. Very similar ideas to the ones posted here.

[Tom Gilbert]

There is a thread that's 9 pages long. Even Richard takes a hit.

[mrgoat]

Is there a thread about this over on The Magic Cafe?

[Richard Kaufman]

I didn't see my name mentioned, but someone should copy all of that stuff of the Cafe because as a PM it's going to be automatically deleted on March 9.

[JimW]

There is a longer thread in the Latest And Greatest section. It covers the ground as the replies to the PM, but it's nine pages long (so far).

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... um=218&255

[Richard Kaufman]

Oh, I missed that thread. I see that some guy I gave a more than generous refund to is bitching about it. No good deed goes unpunished.

[AJM]

I received a polite reply advising that a refund had been processed and that this should appear in my account within the next day or two.

To clarify, I have no issue with the recurring billing concept and already have a few of these in place for existing subscriptions.

The difference in this case is that I have no idea who I'm dealing with nor have any track record on which to make an informed decision as to the nature or quality of the product on offer.

Like a number of folks here, I was more than happy to give the publisher the benefit of the doubt and take out a premium sub for 12 months, however the additional 'mandatory' requirement was a step too far in my view.

For those that are subscribing, I hope the finished product meets your expectations.

Cheers

Andrew

[billmccloskey]

Personally I have enough real secrets sitting on my bookshelves that I haven't gotten around to reading yet.

[AJM]

You and me both Bill.

[Richard Kaufman]

I'm addicted to acquiring more secrets. Makes me smile.

[Oddly Bent]

Real Secrets is being brought to you by...drum roll

Val Valentino.....
ha, ha, ha .....

[Richard Kaufman]

This morning, found a message in my inbox from the Real Secrets folks:

Richard,
One of our contributors just forwarded this from you:
"So, it's into the pool feet first for two years. At least"
Your $144 is for one year plus all bonus materials.
Not two years.
You can cancel at any time and your pro-rated balance will be refunded.
At 11.5 months you (and all members) will be reminded that the auto renewal period is approaching.
So to be clear, your membership application is for ONE YEAR @ $144.00
Real Secrets Team

Does that clarify something?

[Richard Kaufman]

I should also add that some clarifying information has come to light about exactly what we'll be getting.

Each month we will receive a physical prop with instructions, so if any of you are familiar with Thayer's old Trick of the Month Club, this seems like it will be a super-duper version of that. If the value appreciates the way the old Thayer set did, we'll all be making a good investment.

[Ted M]

You've twice seemed to mention a 2 year minimum period, and that seems to be connected to auto-renewal confusion. Earlier you wrote:

"If they had said upfront that we MUST subscribe for two years at a cost of $288, and the second year's portion won't be billed until the end of the first year, then this wouldn't be happening. But they realize, it would seem (and rightfully so), that seeing a figure of $288 is going to put some folks off."

and later:

"So, it's into the pool feet first for two years. At least"

There's not a 2 year minimum. When one pays $144, one gets a 12 month subscription. A flag for automatic renewal is set for a year in the future, but won't trigger until then. To cancel at any time, turn that flag off through the paypal interface.

There's a lot about this that rankles, but there's not a two-year minimum.

Where did the new information about the monthly deliverables come from? Real Secrets should really post this stuff on their own website (in addition to anywhere else) so it's available to ALL their customers...

[Pete McCabe]

I guess there are real secrets about Real Secrets.

[Richard Kaufman]

If you didn't want to receive more than one year, you would have to stop auto renewal right after you've received the 12th item. If you do that, then they will have already charged you and you would have to request a refund.

The 12th item might have other bits in it whose presence or significance won't be explained until a later installment, leading you to say, "the heck with it" and let it go for another year. Plus, there are all kinds of bonuses and freebies being dangled.

You can see that they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too. It's very heavy-handed and customer un-friendly.

Sure, you can write, "There's not a 2 year minimum." But they're forcing you to accept auto renewal--no choice in the matter--which means to me that psychologically they're shoving you into a two-year minimum.

I hope the stuff will be great. We'll see in April.

[Q. Kumber]

There is definitely a sniff here of someone in the marketing department who has studied the writings of Gurdijeff and/or Werner Erhard.

[RobertAllen]

I hope the stuff will be great. We'll see in April.

Given how they're treating people, how good could it be to make up the treatment? This is starting to remind me of a Shaggy Dog story.

I'll wait to see the items sold on ebay by people either disappointed with what they got, or looking to double their money.

[the Larry]

Robert, that is an excellent tip. If an effect is really good I am sure it will become available in other forms as well. Why would the creator limit his profit? But there will certainly be enough who for some reason or another will want to get rid of items. You just saved me a lot of headaches with auto renewals and potentially a lot of money, too.

[Richard Kaufman]

The Larry, he hasn't saved you money. If anything, Robert's advice will cost you money if you decide to try and hunt down someone's resold items later on because it's more than likely they will be resold at a much higher price.

Remember, you're paying $12 for each trick you receive. It's highly unlikely you'll ever be able to pay less than that.

The whole point behind this is that in fact the creators are selling the material only through this source, and will not sell it elsewhere in the future. I have also been told that Real Secrets subscribers will have sole access to certain new items that will be placed on the market by the same "name" contributors.

[Ted M]

The 12th item might have other bits in it whose presence or significance won't be explained until a later installment, leading you to say, "the heck with it" and let it go for another year.

Sure, it's a lot like serial storytelling on TV. As you note, issue 12 will likely have a mighty cliffhanger so folks pay up to experience the next season's premiere.

Serial storytelling can be very fulfilling for those immersed, but it has barriers to entry for new audience members, who are confronted with frustrating information gaps. On TV, reruns allow new viewers to catch up and join in, but Real Secrets is supposedly taking a hard line on denying availability of back issues.

We'll see if that no-back-issues policy lasts, since I would expect it will inflate their initial subscriber base by making people afraid to miss issue 1, but thereafter would likely hurt their attempts to grow their subscriber base.

I expect they'll work around it by selling "refills" of popular past props without the instructions that comprised the original monthly issue. So new subscribers could then mostly catch up, TV rerun style, at least enough that their current issues calling for the old prop will make sense.

You can see that they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too. It's very heavy-handed and customer un-friendly.

Absolutely. It's very manipulative, hard-line and unilateral. I find it alienating.

[Ian Kendall]

You're not tied into two years. After month 12 you can cancel your sub and get a pro-rata refund, which would be the year two fees.

[the Larry]

Mr. Kaufman if the Real Secret promises are as 'watertight' as all the other 'limited edition' promises we have seen in magic I will soon be buying these 'not so real' secrets at a discount. At $12/month removing the cost for s&h what can you really get than maybe a gaffed card or some plastic thingy as the average item.

[AJM]

I'm pleased to report that my refund was credited to my PayPal account today.

Cheers.

Andrew

[RobertAllen]

The Larry, he hasn't saved you money. If anything, Robert's advice will cost you money if you decide to try and hunt down someone's resold items later on because it's more than likely they will be resold at a much higher price.

Remember, you're paying $12 for each trick you receive. It's highly unlikely you'll ever be able to pay less than that.

The whole point behind this is that in fact the creators are selling the material only through this source, and will not sell it elsewhere in the future. I have also been told that Real Secrets subscribers will have sole access to certain new items that will be placed on the market by the same "name" contributors.

In the interests of clarity I'll stop being so curt in my responses and try to note what I'm getting at with my posts on this topic:

1. I had no intention of saving anyone money :)

2. Out of 12 tricks for a year, I would be surprised if more than 4 or so are individually suited or enjoyed by Joe Random Subscriber. Thus some of the others will be available on ebay, etc. If one buys one a year for up to $50 that's still more cost effective.

Of course for the couple of tricks that become really "hot", the price will skyrocket just as it did for collectables such as the original colored books by Max Maven. At least until the trick is ripped off, or re-released to a larger audience. I wonder if inventors of the material retain rights to re-release? Most limited editions or publications I've seen are eventually republished. The only exception are the pubs of the PEA [I envy and applaud the PEA for holding onto their real secrets, requiring not only money, but sweat equity to gain access to them.]

But I'm not talking just about the dollar cost.

3. Opportunity cost. The hassle over discerning just what all the rules (made up as they go?) are with respect to membership. I'm not all that old yet, but I'm crotchety. I much prefer to know the pros and cons of an agreement up front and decide to do it, or not, than being strung along. But that's just me.

4. As Larry has noted, recent history is rife with subscriptions petering out. It's also rife with promises of awesome secrets. Back in the 1970's some scamster ran ads in MUM titled "If Uri knew I was selling this he'd kill me", where the purchaser was promised all the super secrets of Uri Geller. In general there's always been the misleading ads from some dealers, as detailed in one of sidebars of the Magic Digest, or as described in some of Busby's newsletters (such as the limited edition spirit bell which used no magnets, wires, or remote control....)

If you subscribe you're betting that they will be in business for at least a year. From what I can tell that may be a good bet since "they" claim to already have a backlog of tricks ready to go. But probably not manufactured. And whoever "they" are, what if they get sick, have family problems, etc? I've seen subscriptions curtailed due to such things in this and other hobbies. It's almost common. If the subs. fee is $20 then it's no biggy. When it's close to $150, I balk.

5. Re. 2 year subscription: it seems to me it's a 2 year subscription for at least the first year. Then if you wish it can become a 1 year subscription, again, if you spend the time to cancel the account and mess around with reversing charges.

Darryl reportedly created his own magic tricks, which others now buy, because he couldn't afford to buy each new trick that came out. Hmm.

In closing, I'm looking at my magic bookshelf. The 4 volumes of Magick alone are more than a lifetimes supply of 'tricks'. Then add to that the New Jinx, The Magic of Michael Ammar, Swami/Mantra, books by Barry Richardson and Ted Lesley, etc. Given that wealth of information, to me the hassle of jumping on the latest bandwagon to get the deep secrets seems to have a high opportunity cost given the hassle, particularly given how many times I've seen old ideas redressed and sold as something new.

Magicians love secrets. Been there, done that. Am still tempted to find a copy of the Protocols book by Max Maven because I'm curious; but in that case the wondering is almost certainly better than the knowing :) And the price is very high given the risk of disappointment.

Anyhow those are my rambling thoughts on the matter.

Regards,

Robert

[Richard Kaufman]

I have been told that all the apparatus for the entire first year of effects has already been manufactured. I've also been told by someone I trust that this is very "cool" stuff and they expect to exceed everyone's expectations.

[RobertAllen]

I have been told that all the apparatus for the entire first year of effects has already been manufactured. I've also been told by someone I trust that this is very "cool" stuff and they expect to exceed everyone's expectations.

If so then that's very, VERY, tempting! But personally I'll hold out. Since they're all super secret, I won't know what I'm missing, and so will be less likely to suffer from secret-envy.

[erdnasephile]

I have been told that all the apparatus for the entire first year of effects has already been manufactured. I've also been told by someone I trust that this is very "cool" stuff and they expect to exceed everyone's expectations.

I still don't know if I can trust the publisher (since I don't know who he/she is.); however, I do trust RK, who is as honorable as they come.

I'm in (with fingers crossed).

[RobertAllen]

There does not appear to be a limit as to how many subscriptions they are accepting. Given that I don't see how they can have

... well over two years content completed, manufactured, and ready to share with our community.

[Richard Kaufman]

Just because they haven't announced any limitation to the number of subscribers doesn't mean there isn't one.

[Ian Kendall]

Do I get to be the pedant who points out the apostrophe misuse in that quote?

I was told directly that two years' worth have been made up also.

[Pete McCabe]

By who? PM me if it's a secret contact. Or, if it's really secret, don't respond to me at all!

[Ian Kendall]

Done.