Has The Net Killed Magic?

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Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Magic Newswire » February 12th, 2012, 10:05 am

Salon.com today posted an extensive article discussing the impact of the internet on the art of magic which includes quotes from Jamy Ian Swiss, Eric DeCamps and others. Blogged at the Magic Newswire Here: http://bit.ly/xLSJcf

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby mrgoat » February 12th, 2012, 10:12 am

What a load of nonsense.

" Today, any 10-year-old kid can type magic tricks into Google and gain access either via YouTube or other websites to the biggest trade secrets in a matter of minutes...As a result, magic stores are slowly vanishing across America"

Balls. All manner of stores are vanishing all across America. Music, records, books, groceries. Not because you can GET THE SECRET FOR FREE online. But because you can purchase those things online. And because there is a MASSIVE WORLDWIDE RECESSION. One in 7 hight street stores closing in the UK. Because you can find their secrets online? No, because of many other variables.

Magic shops are not closing because information can now be spread more easily.

In a brick-and-mortar magic shop there is a sense of community, he said. You get to know other people and you have somebody whos an expert, who can help you with specifics that you dont know about. You meet incredible magicians and you are able to walk up to them and show them what you can do, so that theyll critique you and give you some tips.

Just like the Genii Forum. But with the genii forum, I can get advise and critiques from people ALL OVER THE WORLD, instantly. Much better than a magic shop.

What a badly thought out and clumsily written article.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Magic Newswire » February 12th, 2012, 10:45 am

BTW, in January of 2010, Jamy joined us on an early episode of This Week in Magic. In that podcast, he touched upon this topic as well. I have added that link to the above referenced blog entry for those that might not have heard that podcast and are interested in listening to it: http://bit.ly/xLSJcf

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 12th, 2012, 11:39 am

mrgoat wrote:What a load of nonsense... What a badly thought out and clumsily written article.


Agreed!

This is just the current version of, "the problem with young people today is ..." As we get older we tend to view change as "bad" and we look with rose colored glasses on the past. In the old days men were twice as strong, women were twice as beautiful, students were twice as smart and magic was twice as good! Most thoughtful people note this tendency - in others at least. Nothing new here.

When I was in the Marine Corps the equipment that held your back pack, canteens, pistol, etc. was called "782 gear". There was a popular poster (among Marines) in the 1980's that showed a picture of a viking helmet, shield, mace and sword. The caption said, "If your 782 gear does not look like this, don't talk to me about the "Old Marine Corps".

In the "old days" of brick and mortar magic shops many people did not live near one of those shops. I certainly did not. And the few times I was able to make it in to magic shop I did not get any feedback and in retrospect I was sold "crap". I know that everyone did not have that experience, but I'll bet if we take off the rose colored glasses there were more young people who had my experience rather than the warm mentoring experience that we generally compare with the internet experience.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 12th, 2012, 12:18 pm

The internet has indeed hurt brick and mortar magic shops (and dealer rooms at magic conventions) very badly. There is no questions about it. It's the same problem that has afflicted book and music stores: you can buy anything you want without getting out of your chair, and probably for less money. Simple, end of story. It's just a fact.


That's different than the issue of mentoring that occurred for those to whom a magic shop (and it had to be the right magic shop at the right period in time) provided a place to meet more experience folks who shared information. And this is connected to kids being able to search for information on the internet. What kids glean today from the net via videos and writing on Forums can't compare to the personal learning and friendships which took place at the brick and mortar shop.

I can speak from personal experience that the mentoring I received from growing up at a time when Tannen's magic shop was filled with magic "greats" almost every day was invaluable, and I would not have done all those books, or be the editor of Genii today, without having been at the right place at the right time. Dumb luck. Without that, my interest in magic might have vanished and today I'd be working at McD's.

There really is a qualitative difference between personal interaction and electronic interaction. Damian, I don't expect to convince you of that, but my personal experience tells me it's demonstrably true.

For those who didn't have a magic shop near them, or had a shop run by unfriendly or unhelpful people, it might not seem that the shift to what is happening today is so great, but I can assure you that it is.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby M.Lee » February 12th, 2012, 12:24 pm

LONG LIVE DENNY & LEE MAGIC (no relation )

Michael Lee

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 12th, 2012, 12:26 pm

I just read the story and, aside from getting David Roth's age way wrong (he's not 69!), I think it's very accurate and captures the point of the view of the people about whom the author is writing. Of course other people have other points of view, but it was a very well written piece that certainly echoes my own experience.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby mrgoat » February 12th, 2012, 12:30 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The internet has indeed hurt brick and mortar magic shops (and dealer rooms at magic conventions) very badly.


It's hurt *every* kind of brick and mortar business. Those that were sensible adapted and created a good website and good service. Those that didn't, died.

The point I was making is the article says magic brick and mortar shops are dying because people are giving away secrets on youtube. That is nonsense.

Richard Kaufman wrote:There really is a qualitative difference between personal interaction and electronic interaction. Damian, I don't expect to convince you of that, but my personal experience tells me it's demonstrably true.


Can't see anyone suggesting otherwise.

My point was that the internet has created this forum, where I can post a video of me performing something and get feedback from around the world in seconds. And I can ask the best magicians alive for thoughts, ideas and facts about magic. And that is A Good Thing.

I can also get tutored by anyone via webcam. It's astounding.

Not saying personal interaction isn't better. I am saying that electronic interaction is brilliant. And I would prefer to have what we have today than see a very small number of people being able to get personal interaction before the internet.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Ross Welford » February 12th, 2012, 12:32 pm

When I was a kid in the UK there was no brick-n-mortar magic shops anywhere near me. The first one I went into was Alan Alan's Magic Spot on Southampton Row on a visit to London with my parents and he scared the life out of me. (Still does, actually.) The internet could not even have been imagined in 1974. So all I had to go on was a monthly copy of The Magigram. So far as I could tell, Supreme Magic was the only company of its kind in the world. When they sent me a rose-to-silk gimmick that broke as soon as I touched it, they refused to refund me and old Edwin struck me off his mailing list for requesting my money back.

So hurrah for magic today, I say! (And the late Edwin Hooper still owes me 1.25, the grumpy fat bastard.)

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 12th, 2012, 12:43 pm

Damien, I understand more clearly what you mean now and I think we're in agreement.

Sadly, I think Ross Welford's experience is not unique, but it contrasts so greatly with the incredibly lucky experience I had growing up in New York with four magic shops (Flosso's, Tannen's, Magic Circle run by Mike Tannen, and Magic Center run by Russ Delmar) and great magicians to learn from.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Ian Kendall » February 12th, 2012, 2:05 pm

Anyone remember that video of the kid who bought 150 dollars worth of stuff from Penguin and lambasted it all for being 'too hard'. He'd been in magic for three weeks (or so) and bought Card College 2 and 3 (amongst a bunch of other stuff) and was hugely disillusioned by the experience.

If he had had a real shop then he could have got some good advice on what to spend his money on. Instead he blew it all.

Not that this has anything to do with the subject in hand, just a small lament about the decline of the real shop...

"today I'd be working at McD's"

Ah, the reality of going to drama school...

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Jim Riser » February 12th, 2012, 2:41 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The internet has indeed hurt brick and mortar magic shops (and dealer rooms at magic conventions) very badly. There is no questions about it. It's the same problem that has afflicted book and music stores: you can buy anything you want without getting out of your chair, and probably for less money. Simple, end of story. It's just a fact.
<snip>


Richard is totally correct here. For years folk have tried to get me to set up a dealers table at some magic convention or conference. The enticement was always "You'll sell out!". I am constantly sold out anyway and have no time to stockpile inventory to sell/display at a convention.

It makes no financial sense for me to stop production (income) to travel to and sit at a dealers table (no items being produced during this time) to market my items (that I have no time to make to sell there anyway). The lost production time and costs of travel/food would in no way be made up for by sales at a convention. For my manufacturing business this is a fact. For a dealer who is sales only (no manufacturing), it could make business sense. There is a big difference between designing + manufacturing + marketing and merely selling items.

The internet allows me the freedom to do what I do.
Jim

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 12th, 2012, 2:52 pm

So, Jim, I take it that you won't be setting up at our Convention? :)
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Jim Riser » February 12th, 2012, 3:03 pm

Unfortunately no can do. The realities of life are not always as we might want them to be. One learns to live with such disappointments.
Jim

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 12th, 2012, 3:18 pm

Sorry I won't see you there.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby AJM » February 12th, 2012, 4:40 pm

My brief answer to the question posed in the title of this thread is a resounding 'No'.

Perhaps I might have held a different view had the small village where I grew up boasted a branch of Tannen's, Flosso's etc etc.

Even if the village did have a cafe / restaurant (it didn't) I highly doubt that the greatest minds in magic would, just by coincidence, congregate there on a Saturday afternoon.

T'internet suits me fine.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2012, 12:53 am

For those who are otherwise isolated from other magicians, I'm sure the internet and DVDs are a boon.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby mrgoat » February 13th, 2012, 6:50 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:For those who are otherwise isolated from other magicians, I'm sure the internet and DVDs are a boon.


Obviously that is by far the majority of magicians. So that's good then.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2012, 11:18 am

It is the majority of magicians NOW. Used to be that there were enclaves of magics centered around the areas with good shops where a local magical culture could develop.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby El Harvey Oswald » February 13th, 2012, 12:40 pm

No; things change.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Kent Gunn » February 13th, 2012, 12:55 pm

The Internet is not killing magic. Magic isn't dead, it's not even got a cold. For the lucky few that were part of the New York magic scene, I can see how they attach a huge part of their own love of magic to being a part of that enclave.

I grew up in San Francisco. Buma's House of Magic, the local store, was NOT a kid-friendly place. Moved to Utah and found there were two magic stores. Earl Nelson was behind the counter at Loftus, in downtown Salt Lake and a far lesser-known magi, Marvin Lovestedt ran the Fun Shop in Ogden Utah.

None of these three shops had a gaggle of great magicians that met there every Saturday. Earl was by far the best guy with a deck of cards I'd ever seen, he had zero time for kids.

The internet didn't kill magic. Shop owners that couldn't shift with the times failed. Joe Pon, who runs the magic shop near me now, is still hanging on. He hustles ever magical angle that comes within 50 miles of the shop. He sells on-line and advertises that fact in Genii. He is the center of the magic scene in SF. I still wander into his shop on the occasional Saturday to buy the latest book and stock up on decks of cards I'll never open. (probably won't get to the books either)

I love me some magic shop vibe. The number of magic shops with a door you can walk through is way down. I saw a peak in the mid-seventies. Living in Denver and working for a string of magic shops was a great time for me. I think Denver's down to a single counter of magic.

For me, the magic clubs across the country is where I got the most help. Connecticut, San Diego, Charleston and Orlando's clubs really stand out. Full-time pros and enthusiastic amatuers were a constant source of inspiration and guidance. Dave Neighbors, Richard Roy, Jimmy Spinnato, Phil Tetsuwara, Ed McGowan and Hank Miller all supplied me with insight and guidance. Met them all at IBM or SAM meetings. The Internet has made finding these enclaves easier and I believe, grown their ranks.

The Internet put me in contact with people like Tom Stone and Denis Behr. I would never had a chance to communicate with folks in Sweden and Germany without the Internet.

For someone just starting out, with a modicum of Google-fu, the entire world of great magic books are easily found.

A few minutes into a google search will turn up places like this forum and the Magic Cafe. For all the silliness that goes on, on these boards, a beginner could easily find a list of sources to help him on his path.

I'm jealous of the crowd of magicians who got to grow up in NYC or other enclaves of magic greats. I still found mentors, peers and magicians of all talent levels through the clubs.

Nowadays I get to run a small conclave in San Francisco. Without the Internet and Paypal would make this evolution far more difficult. A large number of our attendees found us, via the web, thanks in large part to Steve Johnson (magic shop owner) and Lee Asher. Their knowledg of the the Internet keeps our numbers high enough we can continue.

The internet changed how we gather and exchange information. I believe it is a huge boon to all in magic, except the shop owners who were overwhelmed by the change.

KG

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby mrgoat » February 13th, 2012, 1:19 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:It is the majority of magicians NOW. Used to be that there were enclaves of magics centered around the areas with good shops where a local magical culture could develop.


So you think the "majority" of worldwide magicians lived near enough to a real magic shop to befriend everyone and get personal tuition from local Ken Krenzels for free? I really have to disagree.

Anyway, back to the point of the article which says that magic shops are dying BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE POSTING SECRETS ON YOUTUBE.

Surely you think that is nonsense?

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby luigimar » February 13th, 2012, 1:21 pm

I agree with Ken. In 1986 and '87 I lived in San Mateo, California and I would go to Merlin's Magic Mansion on El Camino Real in Hillsdale (I think). I would be free 2 days a week and I spent those 2 days there, from around noon till they closed the store. I loved being there and enjoyed my time there. One day in '87 I even met David Michael Evans and bought the then just published "The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings". I remember that David told me he had helped write Classic Magic and even autographed my copy of it. Great times. I don't know what happened to Merlin (the owner) and Mike (I think that was his name, it's been a long time! He was the one who demoed all the magic). Now where I live there is no magic store and I miss that experience.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby El Harvey Oswald » February 13th, 2012, 6:54 pm

The idea that Tannen's was without exception an idyllic place that welcomed the most naive beginners would be purely funny if it weren't solidifying into the sort of entrenched mythology that magician types don't part easily with. I saw some of the "mentoring" that is located as the prevailing norm in some unspecified past epoch; but for the most part it was a place content to spot my bankroll; sell me Hippity Hop Rabbits; and then perhaps demonstrate Frank Garcia's latest invention to the next in line. It was also quite frequently a place for accomplished professionals to fill whatever self-worth void was caused by low-paying gigs or crediting disputes (Garcia invented Wild Card, right?) or no gigs or still being the diffident 12 year-old who was never going to be a girl-getting athlete. And they often did that by quite openly ridiculing a malapropism or lack of knowledge by a beginner -- much as a "noob" is ridiculed for unfamiliarity with a particular meme or piece of online argot. Perhaps future greats like Jamy Ian Swiss were deluged with mentoring, as they rightly should have been. But it was hardly as pervasive as the simplistic, lost-era-of-simple-virtues narratives suggest.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2012, 7:41 pm

I saw a lot of kids get encouragement from well-known people in our field up at Tannen's. Was it idyllic? Yes, for me it certainly was.

But to some extent you got out of it what you were willing to put into it in terms of practice and dedication.

I could already do some things I'd learned from books before beginning to meet people at Tannen's. The first time Gene Maze convinced me to go to the Governor Cafeteria, I met Sol Stone and we talked about the Saks' dice routine which I'd learned from Bruce Elliott's Classic Secrets of Magic. I had already started learning card magic when Ken Krenzel offered to teach me his handling of the Panoramic Shift. Then I practiced and had him measure my progress, and then he showed me other sleights. Same with Harry Lorayne--he taught me the HaLo Slip Cut when I was 14 or 15. I mastered it and did many effects he taught me before they were published. And I'm quite happy to say that I literally lay at the feet of Derek Dingle and watched him do the Pass from beneath and then every other possible angle. THIS was the mentoring I received at Tannen's from the people I've mentioned and many others. It was a real tangible thing for me, Geoff Latta, Jeff McBride, and many others. Really an idyllic time--Slydini teaching me the one-coin routine and Linking Pins in his apartment; watching Gene Maze deal from the center of the deck and not seeing a thing. I could go on for many thousands of words like this. Meeting Orson Welles at Tannen's, meeting Dick Cavett, Hugh O'Brien (he was cool in green leather pants and sport jacket with an orange turtle-neck sweater).

Damian, yes, I do think that it is nonsense. Magic shops are not dying because magic is being posted on YouTube. The postings on YouTube may contribute in a small way to the overalll ecomomic pressure on magic shops, but that's not what is killing them.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Bob Farmer » February 13th, 2012, 7:50 pm

For the first few years I was in magic, I didn't know any magicians and there was no magic shop for hundreds of miles in any direction. There was no internet. There was the library and the mail, both of which I used all the time. I also didn't have any money to buy anything expensive, so it was cheap books from which I taught myself. This actually worked out much better for me, because when I finally did end up going into magic shops and meeting other magicians, I realized I'd already developed my own style and my own stuff and was happy with that. So not being able to go into a shop, didn't really affect me at all.


If the internet and personal computers have done anything to hurt magic, it's because it's now so easy for some doofus to put out a DVD and/or book, some doofus and the doofii generally, do so--and that's why there's so much garbage available--which can drown the good stuff.

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby El Harvey Oswald » February 13th, 2012, 8:08 pm

"I saw a lot of kids get encouragement from well-known people in our field up at Tannen's. Was it idyllic? Yes, for me it certainly was. "

Of course; you would become Richard Kaufman. I was just . . .

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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2012, 8:16 pm

It doesn't matter who I became, or what path my life would take later on. What matters is that I'm still in the field and can tell the story. There are many others who dropped out of magic, or died (like Latta), or don't read boards like this, who can't tell their stories. One of the best sleight-of-hand guys we ever saw was a kid named Al Louie. Latta and I used to marvel at how beautiful his touch was. Amazing. And then one day he just stopped hanging around and we never saw him again. But damn--he was our age, but he was so good that we were learning a lot just from watching his soft touch on card moves.

And I should emphasize how nice most people were to me--really generous. I didn't meet a lot of bastards, but there were a few. One guy worked at Tannen's in the mailing room was a chicken hawk--he was an older guy who always had a young boy with him. Gene Maze told me to make sure I was never alone with the guy. I'm sure it was not idyllic for those poor kids.
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Re: Has The Net Killed Magic?

Postby El Harvey Oswald » February 13th, 2012, 8:20 pm

"I literally lay at the feet of Derek Dingle and watched him do the Pass from beneath"

Great image. And I am all for Richard having been the one self-selected by his dedication to have documented and memorialized so much of the greats' work, while also being part of bringing magic into the technological era.


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