Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

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Richard Kaufman
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Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 3rd, 2011, 3:57 pm

Here's a jolly article about the overwhelming wave of self-published eBooks and how they're mostly crap:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ifestyle_6
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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Chris Aguilar » July 4th, 2011, 3:01 am

Well, no surprise there.

Sturgeon's law applies as it does most everywhere else.

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Jim Roberts
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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Jim Roberts » July 6th, 2011, 11:30 pm

e-books. The new vanity press
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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby hugmagic » July 9th, 2011, 7:22 am

The computer makes it easier to write but it is just as hard to think as ever.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 9th, 2011, 9:00 am

Jim Roberts wrote:e-books. The new vanity press


Worse than that, there is no barrier to entry. Any idiot with a copy of Word can make one.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Jim Roberts » July 9th, 2011, 2:02 pm

I guess I better get to work then ;)
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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 9th, 2011, 2:26 pm

I some ways it helps us.
It raised the stakes for "that is which is worth taking seriously" compared to "that which suggests the author/publisher need to have their works vetted by a generation of serious students as they have the time".
It also helps us to keep our material quiet in using the "security by obscurity" approach - as long as folks name their works in vague ways and refrain from posting quotes which permit searches that return only a few candidates including the correct item.
Another tactic that can work in what Stephenson called "bogons" - almost correct versions of the item online that simply omit or have false information in some places which make the work less than accurate.

So, IMHO nothing wrong with ebooks as a means of getting what you want circulated. Just not, IMHO, the best way to collect and keep the best workable material in a format that folks would like to keep on the shelf for display or reading pleasure. For research purposes, it's pretty clear by now that folks are taking works and turning them into ebooks for lookup/search purposes. So that horse is out of the barn almost a decade ago.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby magicam » July 10th, 2011, 4:14 am

Chris Aguilar wrote:... Sturgeon's law applies as it does most everywhere else.

I think Theodore Sturgeon himself would have referred to it as Sturgeons Revelation. For him, "Sturgeons Law had a different meaning.

As mrgoat observes, with e-books the entry barrier is much lower. But its interesting to note that a huge number of cheap magic publications (usually called manuscripts) have been produced over the past 70-80 years using the hectograph and Zerox processes and their progeny. So the idea that technology has opened up self-expression to the masses isnt entirely new (and really, one could argue that the invention of printing with moveable type provided a cheap, revolutionary means of mass self-expression, although in its infancy it wasnt used primarily for that purpose).

Years ago, I did a bit of research on early duplication machines and methods in an attempt to understand and correctly characterize them in my bibliographical work. The variety of early duplicating machines was dizzying, and Ive now forgotten much of what I learned. But I do remember reading that actor Robert de Niros father was one of the early adopters of this technology and used it to produce underground porn!

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 10th, 2011, 5:17 am

magicam wrote:
As mrgoat observes, with e-books the entry barrier is much lower. But its interesting to note that a huge number of cheap magic publications (usually called manuscripts) have been produced over the past 70-80 years using the hectograph and Zerox processes and their progeny. So the idea that technology has opened up self-expression to the masses isnt entirely new (and really, one could argue that the invention of printing with moveable type provided a cheap, revolutionary means of mass self-expression, although in its infancy it wasnt used primarily for that purpose).


a) type was thought of as piracy, back in the day

b) what we have now though, is instant huge distribution. WIth your Xeroxed manuscript, you had no genii forum to post on announcing your tome's publication to hundreds of thousands of people. Instantly. Who can all download your tome, instantly. And think it is revolutionary. :)

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby magicam » July 10th, 2011, 5:39 am

^^^ In these wee hours (for the U.S. west coast), afraid I dont understand the first point, but completely agree on the second. Like you say, the potential for mass exposure with e-books and todays internet technology really is revolutionary and unprecedented.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 10th, 2011, 11:29 am

magicam wrote:^^^ In these wee hours (for the U.S. west coast), afraid I dont understand the first point, but completely agree on the second. Like you say, the potential for mass exposure with e-books and todays internet technology really is revolutionary and unprecedented.


The first point is that when moveable type was invented, it was viewed as piracy. Effectively doing the monks who did all the writing out of a job. There was a huge outrage about it.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby magicam » July 10th, 2011, 3:42 pm

^^^ Ah, gotcha. Thanks. Wasnt aware that the 15th century scribes viewed it as "piracy. Seems an odd term for the circumstances (at least given the modern-day meaning of piracy in the book world). Where did you hear/read that term?

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 10th, 2011, 5:16 pm

I think that dissemination of information from the elite to the masses has always been viewed as threatening in some way. But it seems to go beyond that now ... it's not just the dissemination of information but the corruption of it. That's not new, either, I guess, but when you have millions of people yammering the sheer number of idiots is going to increase.
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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 10th, 2011, 5:31 pm

Fun in a line or two but first a serious note for our historians of magic. It helps to know some history as regards the rest of western civilization. For example the "think a drink" Hoffman routine takes on an added dimension of meaning when you put the performance in context of the time when prohibition made alcohol drinks scarce and illicit. Even the cups and balls trick takes on some added value when one recalls the report of a guy apparently using small stones instead of cloth or cork balls as reported from Roman times.

Okay, playtime: Yeah, things went to heck when Aramaic, Attic or proper Latin gave way to dialects and text started mutating in translation. mutatis mutandis indeed. ;)

Vetted texts with proper crediting, citations and a provenance of permissions will remain valuable. The rest ... kind of tough to tell the bogons* from the works of those who just don't care.

Not sure what serves the advancement of the craft or its preserved history as we get important works published electronically online and content gets copied around.

******************
*notion from Stephenson's Anathem: data security measure where variants of online documents with subtle and extensive errors are produced by programs and posted to obfuscate access to the originals when searched without proper search keys.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby magicam » July 12th, 2011, 1:46 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I think that dissemination of information from the elite to the masses has always been viewed as threatening in some way. But it seems to go beyond that now ... it's not just the dissemination of information but the corruption of it. That's not new, either, I guess, but when you have millions of people yammering the sheer number of idiots is going to increase.

Agreed. William Eamons Science and the Secrets of Nature is an enjoyable, sometimes magic-tinged discussion of how the invention of printing affected the dissemination of information to the masses.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 12th, 2011, 3:51 am

magicam wrote:^^^ Ah, gotcha. Thanks. Wasnt aware that the 15th century scribes viewed it as "piracy.


I realised, hence me explaining it in child-like language so you'd be able to grasp my point.

magicam wrote: Seems an odd term for the circumstances (at least given the modern-day meaning of piracy in the book world). Where did you hear/read that term?


How many citations would you like, love?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/ ... on-Society

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/401189.html

http://film315s.com/14896/

Three enough?

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 12th, 2011, 3:51 am

Richard Kaufman wrote: when you have millions of people yammering the sheer number of idiots is going to increase.


See youtube comments for proof.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby magicam » July 12th, 2011, 5:14 am

^^^ See a good quantity of your Genii Forum posts for additional proof.

mrgoat wrote:
magicam wrote:^^^ Ah, gotcha. Thanks. Wasnt aware that the 15th century scribes viewed it as "piracy.
I realised, hence me explaining it in child-like language so you'd be able to grasp my point.
magicam wrote:Seems an odd term for the circumstances (at least given the modern-day meaning of piracy in the book world). Where did you hear/read that term?
How many citations would you like, love?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/ ... on-Society

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/401189.html

http://film315s.com/14896/

Three enough?


How bout just one that is actually relevant to your claim:

mrgoat wrote:The first point is that when moveable type was invented, it was viewed as piracy.


None of the cites you offer supports your claim. In fact, one of the cyber authorities you cite doesnt even correctly know when the printing press was invented. LMAO.

Ive read a decent amount of well-researched literature about the invention of printing with moveable type, and have never read anything remotely resembling the claim you made. But as much as Ive read, I realize that I could still learn a lot more about this fascinating (to me at least) topic. Thus my sincere question which hurled no insults at you. Actually hoped I could learn something from you (yeah, silly me ).

And thats one big difference between us. Ive read quite a bit on a topic and still want to learn more. You, on the other hand, have clearly read a wee bit of pure cyber garbage on the topic, and think you know it all. Suggestion: instead of typing Gutenberg and piracy into the search box on Google, scanning a few web pages, and then concluding that 1+1=3, try reading real research on the subject before attempting to sound authoritative about it.

And if thats too time consuming, try doing something which clearly doesnt come naturally to you: reread your claim and the cites you posted, and admit that you were mistaken because they have nothing to do with what you said.

Failing all that, just carry on .. ;)

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 12th, 2011, 5:59 am

magicam wrote:How bout just one that is actually relevant to your claim:


"The other point is that Piracy is a new trend that illustrates that our society is creeping down the moral ladder. However, piracy has existed forever. Not just with VHS and Cassette tapes but cases of piracy go back to the invention of the printing press in the 1500's. Notable victims of piracy include Charles Dickens and Cervantes."

"The movable type printing press brought the possibility of compensation for literary labor. Very speedily, however, the unrestricted rivalry of printers brought into existence competing and unauthorized editions of various works, which diminished prospects of any payment, or even entailed loss, for the authors, editors, and printers of the original issue, and thus discouraged further undertaking. Any person with a press and some skills could use movable type to publish books and other items. Scribes and scriveners were no longer needed."

Try clicking the links and reading them!

Lots of love

Damian

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby erdnasephile » July 12th, 2011, 8:28 am

I think another negative the ebook glut has wrought is that there is so much information out there that the average magic tyro has now come to expect that EVERY secret/trick/routine should somehow be available to them at will.

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby magicam » July 12th, 2011, 8:30 am

Damian, I did indeed read all three links, thus my earlier comment (about your first quote) that your cyber authority didnt even know when the printing press with moveable type was invented in western Europe, it was invented in the 1400s, not the 1500s. However, if you spent any time studying the history of printing with moveable type, youd know that it was done in China and Korea hundreds of years prior to Gutenbergs time.

Because I read the links, I know that your second quote doesnt come from any of them. But like the first one, the second quote doesnt actually support (or even address) your claim, and because of its content doubtless it was made on some website which has nothing to do with the educated discussion of the history of incunabula, and by someone (probably anonymous) whose credentials are unknown.

Either you are doing some trolling or do not understand your own words. Ive bolded the key language in the quote to help you better understand your own claim:
mrgoat wrote:The first point is that when moveable type was invented, it was viewed as piracy.


It would be nice if, in support of your claim, you could find a quote from someone with a real name who is educated on this subject, instead of anonymous posters on internet forums whose credentials are unknown. If you plan on going through life relying on random posts in internet forums to obtain knowledge, youre going to continue being very confused about a lot of things, my friend!

If you can find a legitimate article or book by someone who actually knows what he/she is talking which states that the mere invention of printing with moveable type was regarded as piracy, Ill thank you for your efforts and the education. If not, then Im done here, and will close with this question: isnt it possible that your claim is unfounded/incorrect and that you misread the links that you provided?

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 12th, 2011, 8:30 am

And with the crap, you also have to get some gold.

Check out this beautiful thing...

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1664419/an- ... ok-on-ipad

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Glenn Bishop » July 13th, 2011, 10:39 am

UF Grant - Magic Inc. Abbots used to have quite a few manuscripts. And in self publishing Burling Hull comes to mind. I am a big fan of self publishing and like the idea of e-books for manuscripts - newsletters in PDF format.

Again it depends on content - one mans junk is nother mans treasure or perhaps in this thread one mans crap is another mans gold.

Or maybe one mans crap is another mans TRIUMPH!

Shuffle On!

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 13th, 2011, 12:35 pm

Sometimes it helps to recrapitulate. eBooks offer auteurs a way to ensure their work seeks its level ASAP. It's easy to confuse the law of large numbers with a triumph of insight.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby George Olson » July 15th, 2011, 1:43 pm

All of this talk about "crap" reminds me of a sign in the Sewer Treatment Plant at San Franciso Airport:

"It may be Crap to you,
but to us,it's
Our Bread and Butter!"

GO

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 16th, 2011, 12:47 pm

GO - if bacteria are posting signs they may well be demanding rights in the near future. Thanks for the warning. Perhaps some medical professions will add negotiating skills to their practice.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Daved » July 25th, 2011, 4:17 am

The proliferation of e-books is also a trend of our times.
I think piracy (apart from the normal phrase used in this case - the freedom of information - with which I partially agree) is a consequence.
I've seen a lot of recent books and DVDs which were not up to the expectations. Frankly speaking far away from being considered acceptable. This means that after having paid 30-40 bucks for it you are having nothing in your hands.
Then before buying you will need to check if the product is good or not. With books you can easily check at your local magic shop reading some pages and looking at the content. But with DVDs and e-books?
I think _part_ of the piracy business as well the one of e-books (in this case the general thinking goes like this: if that guy produced that awful book, why can't I? - and I have good ideas) generated from this.

In any case you have plenty of info in digital format, but it has become more difficult to get the good ones.

I must say that I am still a paper guy. I am not feeling well while reading on the screen (being an iPAD or a PC) and I need the smell of paper. This means I prefer old books (better smell ;))

My 2 cents
Regards
Dave

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Ian Kendall » July 25th, 2011, 5:23 am

Ebooks do have advantages, as well as disadvantages. The two most obvious ones are the ability to make text more feature rich (if that's not too pretentious) by adding video or other multimedia. The second is the ease of distribution (which can also be a curse); I can get a document to Australia or the States in less than a minute, against at least a week for physical post.

The downsides have been discussed ad nauseam.

Ian

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby mrgoat » July 25th, 2011, 7:04 am

magicam wrote:If you can find a legitimate article or book by someone who actually knows what he/she is talking which states that the mere invention of printing with moveable type was regarded as piracy, Ill thank you for your efforts and the education. If not, then Im done here, and will close with this question: isnt it possible that your claim is unfounded/incorrect and that you misread the links that you provided?


Sure, try watching this.

http://www.stealthisfilm.com/Part1/

It goes into some detail about how type was viewed as piracy.

I'm sure it's not peer reviewed and published in Nature, but, I'm not *really* sure why you care so much about all this anyway?

I guess you're just trolling. You ask for citations, I give them, you ask for different ones, I give them.

You're fun!

/me ruffles your hair and trots off in a goaty fashion

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Re: Crap, Crap, and More Crap: eBooks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 25th, 2011, 9:40 am

One would think one who values citations so much would have had them handy in advance of a statement.

Was piracy of books considered a 'thing' back then? If so, how does it reconcile with the concept of monks actively copying books? Seems to me that the movable type issue would be more a concern for job security than literary piracy as we think of it today.

But I'm not the one making claims here.


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