Penn & Teller 'Fool Us'

[Oli Foster]

Yeah, I loved 'cubic act' - so fantastically surreal. I'd love to see more stuff like that - reminded me abit of a magic version of Slava's show, if anyone's seen this (?)

And Nick Einhorn seemed to really hold his own with a cracking trick very well presented.

Michael Vincent was his charming old self, you always know it's going to be good when he's on. Nice to see good magic done well.

Was it me or were Morgan and West using an equally victorian method of coding the sillhouettes to each other like the old second sight acts? - fantastic to see if that was the case...

Our local favourite Gazzo's on next week with his fantastic cups and balls - well worth a watch!

Oli

[mrgoat]

Yeah, I loved 'cubic act' - so fantastically surreal. I'd love to see more stuff like that - reminded me abit of a magic version of Slava's show, if anyone's seen this (?)

And Nick Einhorn seemed to really hold his own with a cracking trick very well presented.

Michael Vincent was his charming old self, you always know it's going to be good when he's on. Nice to see good magic done well.

Was it me or were Morgan and West using an equally victorian method of coding the sillhouettes to each other like the old second sight acts? - fantastic to see if that was the case...

Our local favourite Gazzo's on next week with his fantastic cups and balls - well worth a watch!

Oli

I think Morgan and West simply added a bunch of cards to the shuffled deck at the point everyone thinks he did a switch. Like that Derren Brown idea with the cards in the notebook. The thrown away cards were the genuine ones. Then not sure about the last few. The idea of a code seems a good bet at some point though!

Looking forward to Gazzo, but why was that picked to go on a show where the idea is to fool them?

[Brad Henderson]

Clever.I believe steinmeywr exploited the core principle as well.

[AJM]

Jon - tell us more...

[El Mystico]

Hmm...

Still love the series; but - Einhorn's best trick was the way the spectators' name tags magically appeared....(unless, of course, there was a hugely advantageous edit at that point? Was that luck - or did Nicholas deliberately engineer a 'down' moment? - in which case - kudos to him!)
...and I wonder how Darwin will feel about Michael Vincent effectively passing the trick off as his own? (Although to be fair, I think Michael does it better than Darwin)

[Jon Allen]

Well, a couple of people have already been cut because they went too far in trying to stand their position despite P&T getting the method. I'm pretty sure I know someone else who will get cut for the same reason.

I was one of those who had their method exposed rather than written, drawn or cryptically explained.

[Magic Fred]

...and I wonder how Darwin will feel about Michael Vincent effectively passing the trick off as his own? (Although to be fair, I think Michael does it better than Darwin)

Oh I don't think it'll be a problem. By Darwin's own standards, Mr Vincent changed enough of the handling to republish it with a paltry footnote, never mind a mild suggestion on a TV performance.

[Chris Aguilar]

Kudos to Mike Vincent for doing such a classy/skillful job with Darwin's beautiful effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqHTrK4 ... r_embedded

[Brad Henderson]

In spite of the fact the show has an inherent focus on method, what i have aeen has done a tremendous job of treating magic with respect, elevating it in the eyes on the audience.

[SteveP]

...and I wonder how Darwin will feel about Michael Vincent effectively passing the trick off as his own? (Although to be fair, I think Michael does it better than Darwin)

I don't think he tried to pass it off as his own. His reply to Penn was "It's the first time it's been seen on television". I thought it was an effective response.

[erdnasephile]

Michael Vincent's work was stunning--non stop sleights in front of several million people. Great stuff!

Does anyone know if there are plans to show this series on US television?

[Richard Kaufman]

British shows of this type are rarely shown in the US.

[AMCabral]

...and I wonder how Darwin will feel about Michael Vincent effectively passing the trick off as his own? (Although to be fair, I think Michael does it better than Darwin)

I don't think he tried to pass it off as his own. His reply to Penn was "It's the first time it's been seen on television". I thought it was an effective response.

With an edit in between the question and the answer, for those playing the home game.

-T

[mrgoat]

...and I wonder how Darwin will feel about Michael Vincent effectively passing the trick off as his own? (Although to be fair, I think Michael does it better than Darwin)

I don't think he tried to pass it off as his own. His reply to Penn was "It's the first time it's been seen on television". I thought it was an effective response.

Surely a more effective response would have been "No"?

[mrgoat]

Does anyone know if there are plans to show this series on US television?

All the magicians are perfectly happy watching stolen versions of it, why bother trying to sell it over there?

[Jonathan Townsend]

I was not aware that magicians are a sufficiently large group to warrent consideration when the economics of television programming are discussed.

[mrgoat]

I was not aware that magicians are a sufficiently large group to warrent consideration when the economics of television programming are discussed.

Well, let's say you're a magic tv producer. You know about the forums. You make Penn and Teller Fool Us. You put it up for prerelease ordering on Amazon. You see EVERY US magic site discussing it hours after it aired. You see the pirates putting up your content on illegal sites. You know most of your target audience has seen it. What do you do? Cancel the release of the DVD.

I'm not, of course, sure that is what happened. But there was a planned DVD release that was cancelled.

Either way, it's still pirating someone else's copyrighted content. Something I always thought magicians thought was bad? I guess the times have changed...

[Jonathan Townsend]

What's a magic TV producer? Is magic such a large market that there are specialized production companies for TV content aimed at magicians? When I stop by Kozmo's table to see how "Reel Magic" is doing I get the feeling that specialized show content for magicians is in its early stages. BTW he seems a good guy and the Reel Magic product seems a winner and good model for further development.

What do DVD sales to magicians have to do with broadcast content on a TV/Cable station?

IMHO the "magic market" version of the programs could still be sold along with the explainations or some additional footage/interviews where the products and designers are named.

[mrgoat]

What's a magic TV producer?

A producer at a production company making a TV magic show. Like Anthony Owen, or Andrew O'Connor over here.

What do DVD sales to magicians have to do with broadcast content on a TV/Cable station?

It's called the aftermarket. Often times TV shows get commissioned and made. The production company sells the UK rights to ITV. Then they go to MIPCOM and other trade shows and try to sell the same content, or format, to other territories.

If a production company had a deal sorted for a US DVD release and the item was for preorder on Amazon and then after it was aired this was pulled there was some reason. I am purely speculating this was because of the rampant piracy.

But, if it was, I wonder how many of the people on the forums stealing this content would feel bad.

[SteveP]

You see EVERY US magic site discussing it hours after it aired. You see the pirates putting up your content on illegal sites.

Either way, it's still pirating someone else's copyrighted content. Something I always thought magicians thought was bad? I guess the times have changed...

It's not on illegal sites. You can see any of this on YouTube. If any producer, whether it's a TV producer or magic video producer, sees their content on YouTube and want it removed, they will take it down within a couple of hours. So the fact that it's up says that the producers don't care.

Also, it's not just magic. I can watch Top Gear, as an example, on YouTube as well. But I don't see that stopping after market DVD sales.

[Richard Kaufman]

It's a similar situation with Paul Wilson's series "The Real Hustle." The BBC won't put it out on DVD, but allow most of it to appear free on YouTube. As Steve says, not piracy.

[Tom Stone]

If a production company had a deal sorted for a US DVD release and the item was for preorder on Amazon and then after it was aired this was pulled there was some reason. I am purely speculating this was because of the rampant piracy.

Tell them to read Cory Doctorow, and it will be all good.

[mrgoat]

You see EVERY US magic site discussing it hours after it aired. You see the pirates putting up your content on illegal sites.

Either way, it's still pirating someone else's copyrighted content. Something I always thought magicians thought was bad? I guess the times have changed...

It's not on illegal sites. You can see any of this on YouTube. If any producer, whether it's a TV producer or magic video producer, sees their content on YouTube and want it removed, they will take it down within a couple of hours. So the fact that it's up says that the producers don't care.

Also, it's not just magic. I can watch Top Gear, as an example, on YouTube as well. But I don't see that stopping after market DVD sales.

Probably the best argument for a lack of morals I've seen yet. Well played Sir.

If the BBC wanted it up there, it would be on the official BBC YouTube Channel. (http://www.youtube.com/user/BBCWorldwide - see how it is all clips) Ditto ITV )http://www.youtube.com/user/ITV1). However, the don't own the copyright. The production company do.

Please show me one official youtube site from a production company that is showing UK TV full length shows.

What is actually happening is that people are getting stuff removed every day, but it happens to quickly to get it all taken down.

The safe harbor awarded to tube sites means that yes, they will take it down if they are notified, but when there are thousands of people pirating your content it turns into a game of whackamole to get it all removed. I know.

So, feel free to excuse your piracy by thinking that if user DodgyBob10928 has uploaded stolen content it must be ok because if the IP owners wanted it down, it would be down.

But do know that you are stealing content.

Unarguably.

[mrgoat]

It's a similar situation with Paul Wilson's series "The Real Hustle." The BBC won't put it out on DVD, but allow most of it to appear free on YouTube. As Steve says, not piracy.

Can you show me a link to the official BBC site releasing the whole of the real hustle on youtube? All I can see is illegal captures uploaded by members of the public.

If it's not on an official site it *is* piracy.

Unless Mr Wilson owns the rights and uploaded it himself, of course. Which he may have done, but the only official LOOKING real hustle channel is from Norway, and I doubt that's him.

I've seen the adult industry literally decimated *solely* because of the safe harbor tube sites are given. Many many companies are now closed and people out of work because of posts like this.

"If they wanted it down, it'd be down, so it must be OK to watch this illegal capture".

No, no and thrice no.

But it's just great you are finding it seemingly amusing to pirate content.

Richard, I can link, here, to many places pirating your work. It's still up there, so that must mean you are cool with it, right?

[Magic Fred]

Have to agree with goat man. Some of the attitudes here are pretty disgraceful.

[SteveP]

It's not so simple as "right or wrong". You can argue all day that it is, but that is a narrow-minded approach because there is money to be made in free content.

Unless I have edited and uploaded video from L&L Publishing, then it's "pirated". But typically what happens is that dealers want to create their own demo. They do it without permission from L&L. Technically they are stealing content. What are we supposed to do? Well we can go after them and years ago we did. All that did was create a lot of bad relationships. Then we realized it didn't matter. Let them. It didn't hurt sales. Where we do draw the line is at exposure. If someone posts a teaching segment, we have it removed.

And getting something removed is easy, especially with YouTube. It can be automatic. All you have to do is send YouTube your content - like DVDs and let them take care of it. When I did the demo for the Pendragon's DVD, they wouldn't post it because the music on the clip was tagged.

If it wasn't for YouTube I never would have seen Derren Brown. And the ability to see his shows online then led to me buying his DVDs through Amazon. Much of the official clips are blocked in the US, it's like they went out of their way to make sure as few people as possible could see them.

I hope the people who think it's either right or wrong never watched the Slydini videos when he was on The Dick Cavett show. Cavett isn't making a dime off of those, so that's wrong. What about Al Koran on The Ed Sullivan Show? That estate is alive and well. I'm sure I could provide a list of segments like that which I'm sure most people on this site have watched.

Just recently someone was looking for a clip of S&R from the 70's. How dare he ask for that and not go directly to the producers.

I don't know the situation with Paul Wilson's show and why it didn't go to DVD. Pirates? I doubt that was the reason. If it were, then I think most TV shows wouldn't go to DVD. Maybe the ratings weren't that good and if "x" amount of people weren't going to watch it for free, then they certainly weren't going to pay for the DVDs. But I don't think jumping to piracy as the catch-all excuse is the answer.

[Jonathan Townsend]

The usual arguments "for" taking without permission go in a heirarchy something like:

01) I did it for one person - too bad others copied it
02) I did not take it, just passed it on
03) I just posted links to stuff folks could use
04) Everyone already knew about it so what's the big deal?
05) It was out of print so I was doing them a favor
06) It was part of my blog so it's fair use
07) The material was not entirely novel (nothing new under the sun) so my rendition was not theft
08) They already had it on the market for a day, so they had their chance - what's the big deal?
09) It's part of how the craft advances - quit whining.
10) So what if the author/owner has publicly protested the use of their work, they're SOL
11) It was old anyway and now there's motivation to come up with newer or better.

[SteveP]

The usual arguments "for" taking without permission go in a heirarchy something like:

What is your definition of "taking"?

Is watching a show on YouTube that's been broadcast on TV "taking"?

What if my friend had it on his DVR or video tape and I watched it that way?

Am I stealing if I DVR every episode of 'Penn & Teller Fool Us' and keep them forever and don't buy the DVD set?

Is it the medium or the distribution?

[Jonathan Townsend]

...
Is it the medium or the distribution?

I love the smell of sophistry in the morning.

Neither the medium nor any means of authorized distribution is 'taking' in the sense we are discussing here.

[mrgoat]

What is your definition of "taking"?

Taking is not the right word. It's copyright infringement. Nothing is actual 'taken'. It's just people choosing to ignore someone else's copyright. Stealing someone else's content.

Is watching a show on YouTube that's been broadcast on TV "taking"?

If it was uploaded by an end user who does not have permission, then yes. It is.

What if my friend had it on his DVR or video tape and I watched it that way?

If he gave you the recording, that is then breaking the law.

Am I stealing if I DVR every episode of 'Penn & Teller Fool Us' and keep them forever and don't buy the DVD set?

No need to be facetious.

If you upload those recordings to YouTube you are breaking the law.

Is it the medium or the distribution?

I'm surprised you don't get this. It is stolen content. Period.

Unless the content owners are uploading it themselves.

Which they aren't.

If they wanted it there, they would upload it, right? They have official channels, they understand how to upload things.

You cool with me uploading L&L stuff to www.magictube.com?

I am honestly staggered that people that rely on copyright to make a living are here saying how cool it is to steal other people's copyrighted work. Staggered.

[SteveP]

Maybe you could try answering the questions instead of being a smart-ass.

[SteveP]

Am I stealing if I DVR every episode of 'Penn & Teller Fool Us' and keep them forever and don't buy the DVD set?

No need to be facetious.

I wasn't.

You cool with me uploading L&L stuff to www.magictube.com?

You would have to ask L&L.

[mrgoat]

The usual arguments "for" taking without permission go in a heirarchy something like:

01) I did it for one person - too bad others copied it
02) I did not take it, just passed it on
03) I just posted links to stuff folks could use
04) Everyone already knew about it so what's the big deal?
05) It was out of print so I was doing them a favor
06) It was part of my blog so it's fair use
07) The material was not entirely novel (nothing new under the sun) so my rendition was not theft
08) They already had it on the market for a day, so they had their chance - what's the big deal?
09) It's part of how the craft advances - quit whining.
10) So what if the author/owner has publicly protested the use of their work, they're SOL
11) It was old anyway and now there's motivation to come up with newer or better.

12) It was a *magic show* and I *REALLY WANTED* to watch it so am pretending it is OK to ignore other people's copyright.

[mrgoat]

You would have to ask L&L.

Can't be bothered man. I'll just upload it to a few tube sites. If they want it taken down, they can find the sites, issue the DMCA takedowns and I will, of course, comply.

Unless, of course, the tube was being hosting in the Netherlands or someplace out of US jurisdiction.

After all, if you think it's OK to do that with copyrighted TV shows, surely it'd be OK to do it with magic DVDs. Copyright is copyright, isn't it? No shades of grey.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Maybe you could try answering the questions instead of being a smart-ass.

Answered on another thread:

I have a copy that I made of S & R on Live... and in Person, a live variety special airing over 3 nights. Back in 1983.
Is this what you are thinking of?

Would you like fries with that?

[SteveP]

You're never going to stop piracy. Never. Much of the piracy going on is from people who were never going to buy anyway. Obviously something out of US jurisdiction is out of our control. Not much you can do about it. But there are easy steps to take with sites like YouTube and if a company is concerned about their content being on YouTube and doesn't do anything about it, it's their own fault.

Is there L&L content on YouTube right now that shouldn't be? Probably. If it's called to our attention we will look at it and if it needs to come down, we have it removed. L&L is a small company with far less resources than the BBC for example.

You can create different ways for people to buy and keeping honest people honest. Napster showed the recording industry that people wanted a better way to access music. Sure it was a free-for-all at the beginning. Napster went away and iTunes emerged with a completely different business model for the music industry. People liked the idea of instant access to individual pieces of music. We didn't have to buy the whole CD anymore for the one song.

NetFlix is starting to do that for the movie industry. Why buy DVDs when I can access the movie anytime I want? No DVD storage to think about and it's cheaper. Why spend the time and hard drive space to download a pirated movie? It's less than $10 a month!

Still, people are going to steal. Wishing they wouldn't isn't solving the problem. People still shoplift. The problem will never be solved but you can create better ways for people to buy and profitable ways for people to access programming, even if it's in another country.

There is a huge market in the US for British programming and BBC America isn't cutting it! We're getting tired of Python & Benny Hill reruns. Now those networks can choose to ignore it and complain that we're watching their shows on YouTube or they can make the programming available to us in a way that also makes money for them. It's simple.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Steve, one could read that as blaming the victim.

[mrgoat]

You're never going to stop piracy. Never.

I know. Who is suggesting you can?

Much of the piracy going on is from people who were never going to buy anyway.

I know

Obviously something out of US jurisdiction is out of our control. Not much you can do about it. But there are easy steps to take with sites like YouTube and if a company is concerned about their content being on YouTube and doesn't do anything about it, it's their own fault.

Ah, so now we go from "they are OK with it if it exists online" to "it's their fault for not stopping it". Interesting.

Is there L&L content on YouTube right now that shouldn't be? Probably. If it's called to our attention we will look at it and if it needs to come down, we have it removed. L&L is a small company with far less resources than the BBC for example.

How many people do you think the production company that made the real hustle, or the production company that made Fool Us have on staff to patrol the internet looking for despicable pirates that steal their work. This isn't "the BBC" not responding as they don't own the copyright. Which is why companies like removeyourcontent.com and piracypitbull.com exist.

stuff about napster.

So that makes it OK to ignore copyright when it suits you? Not sure the point the analogy makes?

stuff about netflix

Ah, so THAT makes it OK to steal someone else's work?

Still, people are going to steal. Wishing they wouldn't isn't solving the problem.

You misunderstand me. I don't wish people wouldn't steal. I wish people that own copyright and complain when it is infringed and moan about magic piracy wouldn't post on magic forums about the content they have stolen themselves. What's the word? Oh yes, hypocrisy.

People still shoplift.

People do shoplift. But they don't usually boast about it on the internet. Especially not if they are people that have complained about their own content being stolen in the past.

There is a huge market in the US for British programming and BBC America isn't cutting it! We're getting tired of Python & Benny Hill reruns.

I apologise for Benny Hill constantly. It wasn't funny in 1976 ad it's not funny now.

It's the production companies that make and own the shows nowadays. not the broadcasters.

Now those networks can choose to ignore it and complain that we're watching their shows on YouTube or they can make the programming available to us in a way that also makes money for them. It's simple.

OH!

I get it now.

Because a show was on the TV here and you couldn't see it and wanted to it is THEIR FAULT you were FORCED to pirate it. You are using territories are your excuse for stealing someone else's work.

Hilarious.

I want L&L stuff on my iPad, but I can't get it. So, balls, I will just pirate it. Sure they won't mind. After all it is THEIR FAULT I cannot get it in the medium I want.

Just off to pirate the new Entourage. For some reasons the idiots there decided not to release it here yet and I really want to watch it.

/me shakes his head in disbelief

All piracy is equal, just some is more equal than others.

[SteveP]

Steve, one could read that as blaming the victim.

You're correct, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Many years ago I worked at an independent bookstore and this store was voted as the best bookstore to shoplift. There were so many ways to get books out of that store. The owner of the store made a decision to invest money to protect his inventory and when shoplifters starting getting caught and arrested it made all the difference.

Now he could have just sat back and complained about it and did nothing. From a business perspective you understand that people will steal from you. Whether it's your inventory, tapping the till or stealing office supplies, people will steal. What are you going to do about it? If you do nothing, then yeah, it's your own fault for not protecting your assets.

Instead of complaining that people are stealing TV programming and putting it on YouTube, then create an official YouTube channel for each show. The cost is next to nothing. Put commercials on and now it's creating revenue. They don't need market research, they know the audience is there and want to watch online. Make it easy for them to do so. It's being proactive instead of reactive. Creating the relationship with YouTube will also prevent people from being able to upload unauthorized clips. It's a win-win situation.

[El Mystico]

It's a pity the thread about what I think is a great series has turned into a thread about piracy.

But - go with the flow - here is a thought: Steve says, about trying to stop dealers pirating L&L DVDs, "All that did was create a lot of bad relationships. Then we realized it didn't matter. Let them. It didn't hurt sales."

Well, from what I've seen, the videos dealers are posting of L&L videos tend to show effects, not explanations. Well, in that case, this probably helps sales. In fact, I'd assumed the videos the dealers were showing were actually provided by L&L to help sales. I'm sure mrgoat can imagine a pitated video which shows so much...but no more. A different sort of exposure.

Now, if there were sites out there which were pirating the entire contents of L&L videos, I'll bet L&L would fight a bit harder to get them removed.

So maybe that is the heart of the issue here? OK, so technically it is all piracy. But some piracy actually helps sales (in which case, surely the owner ought to be putting effort into making sure the most suitable material is getting out there), but some piracy hinders sales.

And, since a lot of TV programmes go to DVD these days, the 'hinder' argument applies to the majority of TV programmes.

(Now, then there is the issue of films that are currently not commercially available. Like, for instance, Kaps performing for Bro Hamman. That's a more complex issue. You could argue that "if it is the only way to get it, that's the way I'm going to get it"; or you could assume that, (as with Vernon's unreleased material) it will be released at some point, with proper recompense to the copyright owner. But that isn't what we are talking about here)