www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

[erlandish]

"What is your point? I am going through my library and have yet to find a poker or protection resource that even mentions Norman Beck."

I don't know that's necessarily the best metric for figuring out who's an expert and who's not in this particular instance. It might work for something where secrecy isn't a factor, but some of the guys with the best knowledge in this field are also doing everything they can to keep from getting made. Through a previous mentor, I know of a guy who's got a foolproof method for cheating on a variant of poker. It's brilliant... and I'm not allowed to talk about it. Not only am I not allowed to mention his name or his methods, I'm not even allowed to talk about what the specific poker variant is.

I don't know if Norman's deliberately avoided a bigger limelight when it comes to this sort of thing, but I do know that many people do. If one's going to be an expert, these are the people you've got to run with.

[John Born]

I understand. It is pretty safe to say anyone on this thread enjoys and is fascinated by any information or "secrets" regarding this topic. In this book, I share some of mine, and am always first in line when others do the same.

John Born

[Bob Farmer]

For the record: Glen Beck knows nothing about poker.

[Jeff Eline]

Norman Bishop was, however, a crossroader. I think his father was pretty good too.

[Brad Henderson]

Oh, Howard.

[Bill Duncan]

For the record:
If John (or anyone else) wishes to submit an item for review in my column Informed Opinion, and is not willing to part with the product, they need only provide pre-addressed, postage paid, packaging with the item, and I will see to it that it is returned for eventual sale.

In the past 25 issues I have only had two producers who wanted their products returned. In both cases I was able to find a reviewer who was willing to study the product and spend time writing a review without compensation. In both cases the reviews were positive so such a request doesnt appear to stigmatize the review.

Additionally, I have no doubt that Mr. Beck could give an honest and informed opinion on any card-related product assigned to him. Simply put, if he couldnt do that he wouldnt be writing on the topic for M-U-M.

And hes been writing for M-U-M for a long time.

Bill

MUM Product Reviews
Attn: Bill Duncan
PO Box 50562
Bellevue, WA 98015-0562

[Howard]

Mr. Born;

You seem to exhibit extremely hostility towards the offer for Mr. Conely to review your book. I would think that a quality book pertaining to a very specialized subject being reviewed by the number one poker expert in the U.S.A. would be an opportunity you should take advantage of.

The only two reason I feel that you do not want Mr. Conely to review your book are:

A. That you are being conned and this is not possible based on the integrity of both Mr. Beck and Mr. Conely,

B. The book is not as good as you say it is.

[Steve Bryant]

Howard, there is far more hostility in the "challenge" than in the response. Get a life. I can't recall any magic book for which the author has been challenged to submit his book to some so-called expert picked out by folks clearly hostile to its publication. (Conely may be an expert, but, having been around card magic for 60 years, I hadn't heard of him until this thread.) The book will be submitted to the usual reviewers, so what is your problem?

There is a

C. There is no need to respond to [censored].

[Glenn Bishop]

Hey Steve - I was once challanged in a thread on the Genii forum to submit my book on ace cutting and block transfer triumphs - to Genii for a review.

I did not send it in for a review because my publishing goals are different - when I write a book or produce a DVD it is not intended for the "magic community."

If I may add about John's book -

With endorsements by - Meir Yeded, Sal Piacente, Joshua Jay, and Simon Lovell wrote the forward - I would say that the book is off to a good start. And it looks very interesting.

Just another thought or opinion

[David Ben]

Well, John, for what it may be worth, I had also never heard of Norman Beck prior to this thread.

Okay. That's a lie. Norman and I are good friends, as is Ron Conely.

John, you have handled yourself extremely well on this thread and, if your book - which I've ordered - is as well written as your posts, then I look forward to reading it. You have discovered that a friendly game has turned not so friendly, and taken the heat.

As my late friend, Willis Kenney, once said about sitting in a game and discovering another cheat, it is best to quit the game and say, "I don't think the cards are in my favour tonight, and I'll call it a day."

Now, part of the hostility towards you stems from the posting of the YouTube clips. I don't agree with the practice but you are not alone. I'm not sure whether he is still doing it as a "service", but Lee Asher was developing a site of clips of great magicians pulled basically from clips posted on YouTube so a new generation of magicians can watch and learn. I assume that he follows the same line of reasoning, namely that if someone posted it, it is okay to publish a link to it. The floodgates are open. I'm not sure I agree with it, but they are open. We'll see if the others who object to your approach will voice an equal concern to other prominent magicians who follow the same practice.

As for your book, as far as I understand it, it was written for the general public. I'm not sure how it will sell as that depends on marketing and distribution, but I can say that you have a great idea. Texax Hold'em is hot, and a book targeted to that community was a smart idea. The magic community is not your market. I wish I had thought of it.

That is just one of the reasons that any comparison to Steve Forte's books is completely unfair. Steve's books were targeted towards a completely different community, and are much too sophisticated in content for the public. Comparing Steve's books to your book would be, as they say, like comparing apples to oranges.

As for your credentials, who cares? The book will stand or fall on its own merits. Sure, I imagine that there is a bit of puffery but that is to be expected. Lord knows how many magicians have pretended that winning a local, regional, or even international magic competition suddenly makes them the world's greatest magician. That form of self-promotion does far more damage, in my opinion, to the general standing of magic with the public than anything you have tabled.

As for you, Norman, I really have to compliment you. Your rube act is without equal. Thank God you couldn't just use an emoticon equivalent. It would not have been nearly as entertaining.

[Howard]

To Steve Bryant;
I guess you are the only person thinking that we are discussing a magic book. I have the right to my opinion and regarding the comment you directed to me, my only problem is really you.

[Brad Henderson]

I'm just thrilled that Glenn has been able to plug his own works a few times in this thread.

You go, Glenn!

[mrgoat]

Brad, do you not listen to the wisdom of Bish? You scummy magicians are NOT his target audience. His spamming of this thread is PURELY for the professional gamblers reading this thread. Or something.

Just my opinion.

[Richard Kaufman]

I want everyone to take a deep breath and be nice or I will lock this thread. :)

[Ryan Matney]

It's difficult to hear the arguments in this thread over all the name dropping.

Couple of observations: People who fancy themselves gambling experts are more up their ass than magicians. And that is saying something.

Seriously? : "You don't know as much about poker as my good friend Lefty Rosenberg so you can NOT write a book about it. At least not until my other good friend, Sal 'Knuckles' McMann reads it as says it is good."

Really? Is that how everyone in the gambling world is? Maybe if we had a commitee vetting process we wouldn't have had a lot of magic books.

Seems like if you are a real expert you wouldn't be worried about some guys book for the public anyway.

Also: If I paid some guy $500 for a review, it had BETTER be a GLOWING endorsement.


If you want to stop someone from writing a book because they don't know enough to suit you, let me know, I have a list of magicians I'd rather see quit than have to read another of thier books.

Back to my Die Box routine....

[Gordolini]

An Ask Alexander silly coincidence for your amusement...

Michael Close reviewed John Born's book "Meant to be" in the October 2006 issue of Genii. The next book reviewed that same month was "Rara Avis" which included the following comment by Michael:

"Shortly after I received Rara Avis, my friend Norman Beck
visited me. He asked me what was new, and I handed him
the book. He looked through the book, asked for a deck
of cards, and then proceeded to fool me with one of the
tricks in it."

[dorian rhodell]

Hi John,

Just helping you out here. Norman Beck's name can be found in the acknowledgements section of Steve Forte's Casino Game Protection Book.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell

[John Born]

Hehe Dorian the only way you could help is to join me as I read, memorize, and make effort to be in contact with all of the thank you's and acknowledgements in the thousands of books in front of me. This way this sort of truly critical error can be avoided in the future. :-)

In all seriousness, this has been a bit of enjoyable banter, and we have all gotten a chance to meet some new friends here. I am sure the contributing here are fine gentlemen, and can look forward to their contributions in the future should they choose to share their knowledge. It is a wonderful thing that the world is large enough for many knowledgeable resources and perspectives. In the end I am very glad that Richard has provided us with this resource, and, the saint that he is, can put up with reading this kind of stuff on a daily basis as opinions and egos sometimes clash.

Should you give this project a shot, I am confident you will find a lot of information and inspiration for thought - whether you are interested in the tools that a mechanic (or simple advantage player) may utilize in the private game, betting and collusion strategies that may take place in the casino environment, or things to be aware of as you consider / continue online play. Though this will be different for everyone, there is even a chance some of it is quality. My end goal is that you get something of value for taking the time to consider my thoughts on a very interesting (and clearly somewhat controversial) topic.

Best,

JB

[Glenn Bishop]

Mrgoat said - Brad, do you not listen to the wisdom of Bish? You scummy magicians are NOT his target audience. His spamming of this thread is PURELY for the professional gamblers reading this thread. Or something.

Just my opinion. .............................................................................................
Mr. Goat - If you are talking about me - I now only sell to magicians on my mailing list. Now enough about me -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvGWJIIOZI

I am very glad it is not me on this video.

Just my opinion

[Richard Kaufman]

Since there's an obvious edit in Damian's video after the shuffles, it's pretty obvious that it's a JOKE.

[Magic Fred]

Which is ironic, as Mt Bishop's Ace cutting is by far the more humorous of the two...

[Glenn Bishop]

I think that the ironic and more humorous part of the story was that it was copied - but don't ever ask me to show it to you.

[Tom Meseroll]

Wow. Fascinating.

Let me start by saying I have been in the magic community since 1972. Some of you in this dialogue know me, and some of you don't. I really don't think it matters.

What I do care about, is magic books, and magical writings in any form. And all I can do is offer an opinion cause I have actually bought John Born's new book "Cheating at Texas Hold'em, A Modern Guide to the Art of Deception and Illicit Play at the Card Table", and I have perused enough of it, in the last week, to at least give an opinion. And by the way, my father-in-law who makes his living playing poker also looked at the book when I received it, and he liked it so much that I ordered another copy for him. (not that he cheats, he doesn't, but he thought highly of the discourse on cheating methods and the well researched expose- again this is his opinion). The book is beautifully bound with many, many great photos, great paper quality, and there is an excellent forward by Simon Lovell. Personally I think John Born's book is an excellent treatise on card handling in general and would be a great addition to any poker players (or card handlers) reference library. Just my two cents, as it seems the primary people posting here have little to go on. My recommendation before critiquing Mr. Born's book is to either read it yourself or wait until someone you respect writes a review (and for some of you, that person would not be me!)

[expertmagician]

I am not an active Genii Forum attendee, to say the least.

But, I have read through the comments in this thread.

I wanted to post my thoughts:

1) John is an excellent magician and he is very knowledgeable
2) I personally do not know what kind is "real world" experience he has in putting the information published in the book to work at a poker table.
3) I can tell you that I have read his book and while it covers traditional topics that are found in other books on cheating at cards. It also breaks new ground by discussing topics which I have never seen in print before.

In summary, even though the book is not a "how to cheat book", it is a very worthwhile read and I can almost guarantee that the reader will walk away with information, ideas and thoughts regarding poker cheating that they probably never thought of before.

I personally enjoyed the sections on collusion and online cheating.

I personally recommend the book and I have no financial interest in the books successes. It is Johns baby and he worked very hard putting together an excellent expose on the subject of cheating at Texas Hold em.

I vote for supporting a colleague who is knowledgeable about the art.

[Magic Fred]

"I think that the ironic and more humorous part of the story was that it was copied - but don't ever ask me to show it to you."

What was copied? In what way is that ironic or humorous?

Show it to me.

[Roger M.]

That's a real nice first post expertmagician, but slightly disingenuous of you not to identify yourself as Jeff Spiller, one of the references Born is using in efforts to promote his book.

[Glenn Bishop]

Magic Fred said - What was copied? In what way is that ironic or humorous? Show it to me.
................................
As a performer that has done a lot of shows - also I have done some stuff on TV - later I put video on my web site. (I have written 5 books and produced 9 DVD's). Well in my opinion when good ideas get out there they get copied.

That is why "now" almost all of my video on the web has only basic technique.

I hope that answers your question.

[Larry Horowitz]

Glenn,


Let me see if I've got this right......

Mr.Goat's video, which was a ridicule of you, is a copy of your previous work.

Are you saying you have previously ridiculed yourself?

[expertmagician]

Just to set the record straight.....and restate what I said in my earlier post... "I have no financial interest in John's book". John simply asked me to review draft copies and provide feedback when we met in New York. He heard of me through some people "in the business". Since we knew some of the same people, I decied to do John a favor and review drafts of his book as others have done (who also were credited).

Yes, he was kind enough to mention my name, but other than that there is no business relationship between John and myself.

My comments pertaining to the book were simply to lay out the facts and my feelings regarding John's book as I perceived them. Now it is up to each individual to make his own decision.

There was no intention to be "disingenuous". Since I do know people in this forum, I assumed that all that mattered was the fact that I read John's book and was trying to offer a personal opinion to guide others who may be interested.

Personally, I try to keep a low profile in some circles and am more outspoken in others. Even people who have known me for 40+ years in the New York area do not know some of my personal interests relating to marked cards. They just know me as a sleight of hand, close up person who also enjoys riffle shuffle work and some deals.

[mrgoat]

If we can, for a second, return to Mr Bishop's BASELESS slander that I stole my cull from him. A few points.

a) The work in my video, whilst not performed for an audience, is VERY entertaining.

b) In my shows, my Dad, Michael Jennings, said I was really good.

c) When there is heat in a real world game, some other dead bloke you've not heard of told me I was really good at doing the punch deal.

d) I did not steal ANY of this work from Bishop. And I will be seeking to start a hearing of the Genii Forum Grievance Committee forthwith. I am flying Rich Cowley in as my expert witness that my work is original. (And I might add, much better than Bishop's ).

How DARE you suggest I copied your work?

An apology will stop the procedure, which is likely to get you banned from here.

Just my opinion.

Damian

[Magic Fred]

RE: As a performer that has done a lot of shows - also I have done some stuff on TV - later I put video on my web site. (I have written 5 books and produced 9 DVD's). Well in my opinion when good ideas get out there they get copied.

That is why "now" almost all of my video on the web has only basic technique.

I hope that answers your question.

No, it doesn't. I have no idea what you are trying to say. But I'm happy to leave it at that.

[Glenn Bishop]

Fine.

[mrgoat]

I accept your apology. Let's put all this nonsense behind us.

Damey
xoxoxoxo

[Oli Foster]

Good crikey, one poor guy's attempt to drum up abit of interest and support from his peers degenerates into a quasi-legal battle with vaudevillian challenges where nobody is as they appear (apart from some people). This professional snobbery and pointless 'intellectual property' posturing of 'real world pros' verses the rest of us is the kind of thing that makes one sorry for bothering, albeit mildly entertaining providing you're not on the receiving end.

I've only met John once when he kindly lectured at our little club a couple of years ago and I have to say that it was one of our best lectures, ranking alongside more 'dead-certs' like Jeff McBride and Michael Ammar. Everything he did was both visually and methodologically interesting and he came across really well.

Meant to Be was an excellent production (although, IMHO a little fiddly in practice) but with lots of other interesting and methodically thorough ideas and contributions for anyone interested in that kind of thing - so, if that, and the man himself, are anything to go by, I'm sure this new one will be equally as good - not that you could set scores on my opinion.

Cheers

[Jonathan Townsend]

Oli, it's practice for the Christmas Pantomime.

[Eoin O'hare]

...Oh no it's not.

[Andrew Pinard]

oh yes it is!

[Dustin Stinett]

I'm sorry, is this a five-minute argument, or the full half-hour?
(Python, Monty)

[Oli Foster]

"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"

And now for something completely different...

[David Alexander]

Sorry, this is abuse.