Magic Castle Larsen Legacy

[Alan Bursky]

Liderc,
Who are you?
Touche, Richard. I still love.

By the way everyone, I am a long time subscriber to Genii. For those of you who do not subscribe, please do. It is a great magazine. It is a great price for subscription. Let's show our support for Richard, and how much we appreciate an open, uncensored forum. Let's not lose this. Now that everyone knows what is going on at the Magic Castle forum, it is more important than ever to keep Genii strong. Remember radio free Europe? This is now Internet Free Magic Forum.

[Richard Kaufman]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression: I know Bursky for many decades. When I was still living in New York City, he was literally the first customer for every book I published, showing up at my apartment at 2 am (I used to stay up REALLY late) to pick up his copies.

So, he's a nut, and we're old friends.

[Steve Bryant]

As an aside, during the really old days at the Magic Castle, another place to perform impromptu magic was the dining room, after the dining hours were over. One of my favorite memories was when Jerry Andrus approached our party and asked if we wanted to see some magic. He then escorted us to the dining room and gave us a full show. I have also seen Slydini perform there. It probably wouldn't work today, but it was nice, back when things were casual.

[West McDonough]

As a member who loves the Magic Castle and yet also happens to be the managing member of the LLC that owns the building, I may have an unusually multi-sided view of the issue. I've debated whether to actually stick my neck out and post this, but I did want to offer a little perspective.

My grandfather, Tom Glover Sr., loved the club and taught me to love it as well. He was also independently wealthy and the sole owner of the property, so he was in a position to let his heart make those famous handshake deals -- he could afford to take a sizable cut in his return on investment and charge the Castle a rent that was significantly below going market rates for more than forty years. But unfortunately he couldn't live forever, and the building is now owned by 11 different heirs, many of whom are not wealthy.

Those of you who have gotten to know me over the last year or two may be able to tell that I love the place just as much as my grandfather ever did. If I won the lottery then I could buy out my partners and work out another such sweetheart deal. But this is the real world, and the chances of that happening are therefore infinitesimally small. Instead, I represent 10 other people who own a prime piece of real estate in a premium market and who have every right to expect a fair return on their holdings. For the past year and a half my job has been to try and find that balance point between both sides, but the fact remains that the rent has had to go up and will most likely have to go up further in the future.

It's all very noble to say that the AMA shouldn't be focused on money, but the reality is that it's not just greed -- if you want things to just be run as a clubhouse, with no eye towards such mundane concerns as increasing revenue, then you might as well start looking for somebody's basement to host it in. But if you want the club to keep it's current home -- the place that Milt and Bill and Irene put so much of their lives and talents into building into something unique -- then it's the job of the people in charge to look for ways of increasing revenue. If you disagree with their methods, then you may want to consider alternative routes that you would be happier with, because otherwise the only option is going to be increased dues or special assessments -- things that would likely bring even greater screams.

I cannot comment in a public forum as to my opinions on various policies and operational decisions -- too much conflict of interest. Those of you who know me are welcome to ask me in person if you want to know, and I've already discussed it with some of you. Mostly I just want to say that, as far as I can see, none of these decisions are being made out of simple greed.

West Flanagan
Manager, Magic Castle Park, LLC

[Liderc]

Liderc,
Who are you?
Touche, Richard. I still love.

A Magician Member at The Castle. a Younger aged one (24)

it seems we have very similar views

Cheers Mate

[Dale Boatman]

West,

Thank you for an insightful post. I would love to take you up on your offer of meeting and talking privately sometime at the Castle.

Respectfully,

Dale Boatman

[Alan Bursky]

West,
I'll explain my point of view in a little more detail later. The fact that a magic event had have to its date changed for a non magic event is a problem for me. Also another fact, that we are having this conversation on the Genii forum instead of the Magic Castle forum is a major problem I have with what is going on. Here is an idea for the Magic Castle Dark Overlord, and the censorship police. You can give Richard Kaufman 3 million dollars to buy Genii magazine, than you can censor this forum!

[Alan Bursky]

The following emails come from Joe Hoffman and are posted here with his permission:

Alan, as someone who supports Milt, I am sending you a copy of the email I sent Rich Cowly and Peter Brio:

Rich Cowley wrote:

The version I heard, was that you called the third floor a bunch of bastards, and that Clement won't pay you for any services for the next 90 days. (You're welcome to work for free, as often as you like.)

How accurate is that rumor?


Rich,

It is no Rumor.. Altho I didn't call them a bunch of bastards. Here is the actual quote
The menu you got was blank, because the third floor pulled it (the Bastards). In all the years I have known Milt, I have only ever seen mad once. Milt asked me to make a proposal for renovating the Main Bar (Grand Salon) For weeks, I worked with Milt, and came up with the following proposal..

This what I sent, and I only at first sent it to friends... the one person who wasn't a friend was Richard Ault.. who was on vacation, and I thought he was a friend...

I later changed it and deleted Bastards from the email, which is what I sent other people.

Anyway, got this from Dave Clement two days ago

Joe,

I am in possession of an email in which you referred to the third floor as bastards. And while you are certainly entitled to your personal opinions, I cannot allow opinions such as these to be put in writing and sent to our employees.

I am suspending your services as a vender to the AMA for a period of 90 days effective immediately. No services provided by you during that time period will be paid for by the AMA. We will then require a meeting with you, on or about October 20th to determine if we want to move forward utilizing your services.



David Clement | Controller
dclement@magiccastle.com
Academy of Magical Arts at The Magic Castle | 7001 Franklin Avenue | Hollywood, CA 90028
Phone: 323.851.3313 x435 | Fax: 323.874.5763 | Cell: 323.447.9977 | www.magiccastle.com



So, as you can imagine, I was really ticked off, and after talking with Milt, he suggested that I keep it to myself till he had a chance to contact Dave Clement, so I kept it to myself. This morning, Milt told me that Dave wrote him back and told him that because I was Milt's friend, HE DIDN'T FIRE ME! First, my earnings from the castle are minimal. I got $1500. for doing Milt's gallery, and all told, there was over three weeks of work involved. Second, the projects I have finished at the Castle (with out any pay) are:
The Fountain
The Lobby
The Gift Shop
The Close Up Room
The Parlour
Large picture in the terrace dining room
Gallery Name cards
Helping Juan paint and stencil the Festal Bench

And those I was paid for, thru MFB were
The new south side Facade
The WC Fields Bar and Inner circle
The Hat and Hare
THe Ceilings in the whole hat & hare area (except for the tin ceiling)
Signs for the Hat & Hare
Houdini Seance Room
Cherub Room Additions
Inner Circle entrance
Puppet cases
Haunted mansion display
All the holiday decorations

So Alan, This is something I think other members should be made aware of. Feel free to share or post where ever you deem fit

Hope this helps your (our) cause.

Joe Hoffman
Hoffyjoe@mac.com


Joe


This is what Joe just sent me. Since members have asked me about this which I had no knowledge of, I thought I would post it here. I think this will answer questions members have been asking. Rich Kaufman is the last refuge for freedom.

[Pete McCabe]

The post that cannot be explained.

[Doomo]

Call me crazy... But the Castle has had some high end supporters and members over the years... Why was there never a drive among them to raise the cash to actually BUY the property. Thus preventing a lot of this crap?

Yes I am aware of the fact that it is Hollywood land... Blah, blah... But in terms of real estate, it is UNDEVELOPED land. The Castle would be torn down in all probability if it were sold to someone. And I am not concerned in this scenario with the parts being carted off to be "restored" somewhere.

I am simply asking why with one time members like Johnny Carson, Cary Grant etc... Why no one raised the cash to buy the place.

[West McDonough]

Dale --

I'm out of town until September, but I'd be happy to sit down with you once I'm back.

Alan --

As I said, I can't address specific policies in a public forum -- as landlord, it's not my place to tell the AMA how to run their business, as long as the rent gets paid. As a concerned member I have opinions, some of which I believe we've discussed in the past and I'm sure we will again -- but since I wear the other hat too, I try to be circumspect. All I'm trying to do here is point out a consideration that needs to be taken into account -- it's fine not to agree with the current methods of increasing revenue, but if so then I think you need to consider how to replace them. You shouldn't just ignore the necessity.

Doomo --

My guess would be that it's because the land was never for sale up until a few years ago, and even then it was only available as part of a larger package. Whether my grandfather would have ever accepted an unsolicited offer from Johnny Carson or Cary Grant or someone? Even I don't know.

[Richard Kaufman]

Tony, wealthy people don't want to get involved in a lot of [censored]. Becoming the landlord puts you in a position of confrontation with your friends if you are their landlord.

[BruceWright]

That's the point of being wealthy.... less [censored].

[Richard Kaufman]

Wealthy people have more [censored] to deal with, not less. They don't want to add more if they don't have to.

[Alan Bursky]

West,
I'll explain in some detail, now. As for Cabarets making money. We keep hearing that the Cabarets are bringing in A LOT of money. I know board members that ask for the figures. They are told that sales are up. This is what board members have told me. (Since this is not discussed in B.O.D, meetings they are free to talk about their opinions.)

They have not seen the numbers on how much is being spent on them. There are 5 people on staff who work on these events, Matt, Erin Ben, Ben has some assistant helping him whose name I can't remember, and a new box office person. Money spent on all of the promotion, and we have to pay for the bartender, server, and bar back those nights. Boards members have said they have not seen the numbers for all that. That they only hear that sales are up. We hear that this is a good way to get new members. How many new members have actually BOUGHT membership?

Show me a ticket purchased for a Cabaret, then show me a purchased membership dated after the ticket sale. No one has seen these figures yet. Milt gets his fee on a GROSS percentage of sales. Is Milt's fee up by that much because of the Cabarets? Remember this is from GROSS sales. What is the net? Business is up from last year. I doubt is up more than 10 percent, I bet it is somewhere about 8 percent because the Palm Restaurant told me that they are up this about 8 percent.

Now is our business up because of the Cabarets, or is it up because prices have gone up? These numbers have not been PROVEN. I have heard that people coming to the Cabaret are buying dinners, this has not been proven.

Last night I was at the club. People were coming in saying they were guests for the Cabaret, and they were going straight into the Inner Circle not the dinning room. The other night I was having dinner at the Castle, there was a Cabaret going on I asked my server if any diners were going to the Cabaret, he said he didn't have any.

So far I think a lot smoke and mirrors stuff is going about how great the Cabarets are for business. My opinion!

Here is a problem I have with events at the Magic Castle being run by people who know nothing about magic. I would pay $100 to see Jim Steranko give a talk. I have asked over 20 members if they would pay 100 dollars to see Jim Steranko. They have all said yes. I will keep asking members today if they would pay that. Now if I asked the event staff about Jim Steranko, they would say Jim who?

Now, if I said I could bring in MAGIC events to that would pack the place, and bring in money would we stop booking singers? I doubt it because Matt Patton has his own agenda. Again the Magic Strolling Smack down (which brings in just as many customers as a Cabaret, if not more) was rescheduled because of a Cabaret.

Let me make this REALLY CLEAR! I have no personal ill will towards anyone at the Castle. I do not take things personally. There are only 2 things that make me hate someone. Being hit, and losing money, and I would rather be hit than lose money. No one at the Castle has ever done any of these 2 things to me.

I joined a MAGIC CLUB, not the Gardena Room.(A club in Los Angeles for singers). If I am PROVEN wrong about any of this I will say I am wrong. In fact check my post on the Castle forum after this to see me eat my words. Thank you.

From the Magic Castle underground freedom fighters.

Stouffenberg Wallace Bursky

[Alan Bursky]

Joe Hoffman asked me to post this. Posted by permission of Joe Hoffman.

From: David Clement
Subject: Genii Posting
Date: July 23, 2010 11:44:45 AM PDT
To: Joseph Hoffman
Cc: Milt Larsen , Dale Hindman , Mark Felicetti , IMS Construction , George Juarez

Joe,

It is very unfortunate that you decided to forward my private e-mail, regarding your suspension, to others (see below). You added some incorrect editorial, completely misstated your earnings from the AMA, and talked about working three weeks on a project that your written estimate stated would take three days. Even more disturbing is that you encouraged a Member to share or post your e-mail where ever they saw fit.

Your decision to make public, matters regarding this private employment situation, is highly inappropriate and completely unacceptable.

We will consider this issue, and it will be one of the points we discuss, when we meet with you after your 90 day suspension as a vendor.


Posted here by,
Spartacus Bursky

P.S. Yes George I know, he was also executed for his actions.
But he was executed by tyrants, and despots.

[mrgoat]

Wow. Since when were employment details legally private?

Interestinger and interestinger, said Alice.

[Dave V]

He didn't say "legal" he said "inappropriate"

When it comes to posting other people's emails without permission on the internet I agree. Joe can give permission for his, but I doubt quoting Mr. Clement's email was part of the deal.

[Richard Kaufman]

Actually, it might be illegal, since it is the posting of copyrighted material which is not owned by the person who posted it.

[Seuss]

I remember reading about a case where the sender had a "legal email signature" such as...

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

The recipient had a very funny exchange through maybe 30+ emails all of which he had posted to his blog. The ruling was basically that there is no expectation of privacy (aside from privacy of transmission) offered by email and no strength added by the disclaimer notice.

That being said if the AMA/castle has some member bylaws etc which limit members from open discussion of club issues then that would be another matter.

[Richard Kaufman]

Suess--that's a different issue. The confidentiality clause you see on the bottom of emails is not legally binding because the recipient has not agreed to this "contract" in advance of receiving the email.

That's not the same at all as the copyright issue. It is settled law that a letter someone writes is covered by copyright, and that the person who writes the letters can prohibit their publication.

[John Lovick]

I understand there is a difference between a confidentiality clause and publication issues. But the example Seuss shares was about someone posting e-mails on his blog (and it was ruled OK, according to Seuss). What happened here was someone posting email on an Internet Forum. How are those two things different?

I'm not trying to be difficult or contrary, I'm merely seeking clarification.

[Richard Kaufman]

If the person sued because of confidentiality issues and not copyright issues, then there's a big difference.

[Seuss]

Yes it was a confidentiality case. I honestly never heard of a copyright claim over a published letter. Wish I could find a link to the case I mention but the judge said something along the lines of: the letter (email in this case) is a gift of sorts to the recipient who can than do what they will with it.

[hscheie]

From a Law site on copyright:
You own the copyright on anything you write. But it will be very hard to claim damages (that is, how much money have you lost because the email was made public).

I suspect that you are more upset about the information in the email (or the fact that you said these things) becoming public, rather than the specific wording of the email. Copyright does not protect you against this type of revelation. If you did not have a confidentiality agreement with the recipient of the e-mail, then they are free to reveal this information.

Unless the e-mail contained something you planned to publish, and now you have lost potential income, then I don't think the copyright approach will work out for you.

Fair Use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

[Ron Wilson]

In the 44 years I have been here in the Castle, we have tried to buy the property without success. The land the Castle rests on, the Yamashiro restaurant, hotels and numerous houses is still, I believe the largest piece of privately owned property in L.A. Naturally the owners didn't want to break it up. Things may change in the future, who knows?

[Richard Kaufman]

Google "J.D. Salinger letters" and you'll find a case where the author was able to prevent a biography from being published because it contained private letters to which he owned the copyright because he wrote them.

[Joe Pecore]

http://www.historians.org/perspectives/ ... 4NOTE1.cfm

"Salinger's lawyers framed his complaint in terms of the damage the publication would do to his economic interest in the letters and ability to control his artistic reputation. "

[Alan Bursky]

Please let's keep this thread on track. Believe me if posting Joe's email was wrong, the Magic Castle Dark Furher would be sueing by now.

[erdnasephile]

Once agin, Godwin's Law is fulfilled...

[Jonathan Townsend]

the law that on the internet a discussion will evolve to a point where somebody feels the need to mention a cultural hotbutton? Can't we just call it the "yo mama" phenomenon and leave such things pass like a fart in the room?

[Terrence]

It's Alan's thread, so I don't mind his metaphors. Adds emotional meaning to his posts.

And Godwins' Law is used primarily as an escape pod for those who can't win a debate -- don't see anyone here doing that. IMO.
:cool:

[Alan Bursky]

If you check the thread early on I said Magic Castle Gestapo. So I started the thread with Goodwin's Law. But if you start early on a thread about Nazis is it still Goodwin's Law? Anyway in this case it deserves the comparison. My opinion.

[BruceWright]

Goodwin's law?

I haven't seen Bill post here at all.

[Brad Henderson]

Alan, so you say you want a revolution. But all I see is name calling, not name naming. Who exactly are you upset with and what have they done?

In 18 months I and hundreds (thousands?) of nonresident members will be asked to vote for board members, but as it stands, I have no idea about whom to be concerned or even why. I just know that alan bursky doesn't like "some people" who have done "some things".

If you really want to affect change - and not just see members check the box next to names that sound familiar to them - you might want to bring some specificity into the matter. While the genii forum is probably not the place to do this (in spite of the fact you brought the matter here), and I understand there are restrictions on the castle forum, an open letter to the members could work I think - you could post it most anywhere.

Right now everything seems like sandbox games and peacocking. If this is serious, how about treating it seriously?

[KirkG]

Brad,

As indicated above, outing the parties seems to cause a backlash from the PTB.

It really isn't appropriate to discuss this here, but since the Castle censors its forums and keeps its mailing list private, reaching all the members is fraught with difficulty.

A gentleman hazarded a guess that 98% of the Castle is completely unaware and therefore perfectly happy with the status quo. I am sure that proportion was just pulled out of the air, but at the last vote, only 100 out of 5000 members (approx) voted against the propositions put forth (that is 2%).

It is really only the local members who attend on a regular basis who can see what is going on via the crowds, the attendees, the food and so forth. To read about it in the newsletters, forums and lunch menu's only gets you the good stuff as the rest is removed.

Is the Board out of touch? Maybe, maybe not. Do we have confidence in them? No. Would better and more open communication help in this area, YES! Is management overstepping its bounds, some definitely think so.

[Richard Kaufman]

All right: I do NOT want to see any more analogies to Nazis here: it's inappropriate and stupid. Comparing anyone's bad behavior in this matter to the Nazi party is ridiculous, regardless of how heavy-handed they're handling things.

I WILL lock this thread if I see any mention of Nazis again.

[KirkG]

I didn't use the "N" word?

[Dustin Stinett]

I dont think Nazi has actually been used, but references to the Gestapo have and thats what Richard is talking about.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Please, the current terms are "financial security", "best interests" and "those who have been entrusted". Get with the times. ;)

And when speaking - remember how to pronounce the word fiduciary. :D