Magic Castle Larsen Legacy

[Alan Bursky]

Culliton,
I am not misquoting you. You said they didn't know what they were doing. As for quoting me???? There are no more Jazz clubs? Herb Alpert's club up Beverly Glenn is doing well.. Vibratto, I think it's called. You don't know about because it is very pricey.What about the Catalina Club on Sunset. Again too pricey for you.It's a Jazz Club doing very well. But I will differ to you. Since you are the scholar. As for calling me grandpa.. . you are older than me... much older.. in fact you will never live to be as old as you look. I would really get into it with you here, but I do not know how to type. By time I finished, you would have died of old age. As for me and Milt being malcontents, I am Greek Orthodox. I think Milt is an Episcopalian. You never said why you quit the play? Oh, I forgot you did say. You said they didn't know what they were doing.

[Brad Henderson]

Alan - when you're finished with the name calling - may I ask what problems have you seen arising from the presentation of the bonus shows? How specifically have they negatively impacted the magic performances at the castle?

I have yet to be there on a night when they were presented. What are the problems you have encountered?

[Richard Kaufman]

Further name calling or sarcastic remarks will result in the closure of this thread.

[Bill McFadden]

Folks, I ask this question respectfully: Are the Castle showrooms SRO most nights? No agenda, merely curious.

[Terrence]

Mondays/Tuesdays, and sometimes Thursdays are often light.

Many, but not all of these Cabarets run on those days now. Also, the Board of Trustees schedule member perks for those days.

That's what I've seen scheduled, but I haven't been on those nights regularly, so I can't attest if they're helping.

But that's the intent from what I hear.

[Brad Henderson]

It seems then that the bonus shows are less of the real issue and more of a 'this is what 'they' do so let's be angry' thing. I know they have had the richard sherman event for a few years. I think that's a great idea and wish I could attend one.

Is it safe to say, then, that the real issue is the redecoration?

If so, I am inclined to side with milt. He built the place. Its his tinkering which made it special. He should be given great leaway if not full autonomy in that regard (or at least to the extent that any agreed upon rules and bylaws allow).

But this cabaret issue seems to be a canard. Which is a shame on two levels. First, something that may actually benefit the club and members becomes viewed in a negative light for purely political reasons and two, the real issue never gets addressed.

[Pete McCabe]

The person most negatively affected by these cabaret events is surely Bill Goodwin, Castle librarian. Many events require the baby grand piano, which normally resides outside the library door, to be shoved into the library, which is a major pain for Bill. And every now and then you can't get through to the library through the club, and you have to go outside and in the library/classroom entrance.

Speaking as a Wednesday night regular, I've never seen a show that interfered with the magic. And some of the events have been quite entertaining. The ones that don't interest me, I don't watch.

[David Regal]

Okay, I think it's safe to say that, as a group, we are shocked by the same thing: Brad Henderson likes Carol Channing?

[Brad Henderson]

David - please.

This is a very serious matter and I would hope you of all people would treat it with the respect it deserves.

I would hate for Phyllis Diller to find out.

[Alan Bursky]

Brad,
First, I do not not wish to make my posts personal. I always thought of Patrick as a friend. I was attacked, and I responded. Check the thread. As for the Cabarets, very few members actually attend. It is more of guests and friends of the performer. More time, money, and energy is spent on these shows than on magic. In 18 months we will have a new election for the B.O.D.. There are members that plan on running who have a great chance of being elected, who feel the way I do. So I will wait 18 months.

[Brad Henderson]

Are these shows loosing money? If so, then that is cause for concern.

As someone who performs at the castle, I have to say, anything that gets real people (ie laymen) into the show rooms only makes it easier to do a better show for the members and guests alike.

[houdini's ghost]

Brad, I don't know how the cabaret things do as far as money goes.
I just want to tell you about last night. The club was mobbed. It was one of the rare young peoples' nights. I brought my son and his date; and one of our waiters, Rosalio, and his family were at the next table. A lot of beautifully dressed, perfectly behaved teen-agers in the club, good audiences, good bunch. The food was great. We caught Chuck Jones and Company in the Palace and Rafael Benatar in the Parlour and they were utterly great. I was really happy because it was the girl's first visit to the Castle and the Castle was--magic! Then Paul Green got both kids very bad while we were waiting for our cars. Perfect evening. And Green was there to participate in a Castle perk put on by Jon Armstrong about gambling moves (I think, I couldn't attend).
at the same time there was a magic class going on over in the classroom. The cabaret area was dark, the Fields bar, as usual on Tuesday, was closed. I've never seen so many people eating hamburgers at the Castle. Made me want one.
In all the years the Castle has been open, I have never seen more spirit among the members. I think the biggest reason is that every week, there is a line-up of fine performers, including some of the greats. The Castle perks and the lectures are free to members and they have been extremely good and frequent. To me, the Castle has never been better.
The guy who built all those rooms where those magicians perform is Milt Larsen.
I wish we had a Close-Up Gallery with twice as many seats, and I wish we had a night club (and on Cabaret nights, I suppose we do, but, I wish we could have night club magicians in it).
The William W. Larsen library (also built by Milt and his boys) is an absolutely invaluable resource made even better by a brilliant librarian curator.
The decoration committee do some very great things.
I sincerely believe that the Magic Castle is better now than it has ever been. We don't have Crandall, Lawton, McComb, Bill Larsen or any of those great souls that have gone on, but, it's a great bunch we've got now.

[BruceWright]

Houdini's Ghost, I concur. I've been a member for all of nine months.

I think the place is vibrant, and alive. I wouldn't have joined if it weren't.

[John Lovick]

Speaking as a Wednesday night regular, I've never seen a show that interfered with the magic.

They don't interfere with any of the magic that is happening, but they DEFINITELY prevent other magic from happening. For years there were members who did semi-regular, unofficial shows in the Peller and Inner Circle -- it was a good roster of people -- and those shows stopped almost completely when the plays and Cabarets started happening.

The Cabarets are cutting down on and preventing magic performances from happening at the Castle. The plays and Cabarets are enjoyed by many, and it is appropriate that members debate their merit, but we do not need them defended by people who do not (or cannot) attend the Castle regularly (and admit they've never seen one the Cabarets).

[Richard Kaufman]

Aren't there plenty of other places for magicians who want to do impromptu shows in the Castle other than the Peller and Inner Circle? Those places haven't been there very long, and impromptu shows have been occuring at the Castle for 45 years. What about in the Museum, and the round table around the corner from the Hat & Hare Pub, and the round table at the end of the bar outside the Palace? Are those places still there? They were last a few years ago.

[John Lovick]

Several of those places: The Hat & Hare, The Inner Circle, The Peller, and the table by the Palace bar are now formally booked on Friday and Saturday, so they are completely unavailable on what were their most popular nights as impromptu spots.

With the Perk events, Cabarets, plays (and rehearsals), etc. those areas are increasingly unavailable on the other nights of the week. As I said, the impromptu shows, which for several performers were a weekly thing have almost stopped entirely. (Sunday and Monday the club is usually too slow to get a crowd for an impromptu show).

[Richard Kaufman]

I referred to the round table around the corner from the Hat & Hare, and also the Museum.

How can they "book" the round table at the end of the Palace bar?

[Brad Henderson]

John,

Like you, I am a member of the Magic Castle. The fact that I cannot attend as many events as you makes the castle no less important or special to me.

As it is my club as well as yours, I see nothing wrong with voicing my opinion as to the activities of my club or in soliciting information about its well being.

I find the concept of the cabarets interesting, and as a member, I am glad the opportunity is available to me when I can avail myself.

Of course, as someone concerned about the well being of the club, my opinion could change if it was believed these activities were detrimental to the magic.

I know you care deeply about the Castle, and have far greater information about its day to day operation than I. But that shouldn't be cause to stifle another member's opinion because they are at the mercy of geography.

Non-resident members pay their dues, too.

[BruceWright]

How can they "book" the round table at the end of the Palace bar?

That's Bill Joslin's table on friday and saturdays.

[John Lovick]

They "book" Bill Joslin at that table, that's how.

[BruceWright]

There's still the Museum of Magic, and now the new Jackie Oaks space for member magic, which is a beautifully outfitted re-dress of the classroom.

But with (MAGIC, I might add) acts booked in the Peller and the Hat and Hare, there is a constraint on impromptu magic on Fridays and Saturdays. That is a different issue than member magicians displaced by Cabarets during the week. But then again, during the week, Bill Joslin's not at his table, so that's open, as is the Hat and Hare, the Museum and the little table at Dai Vernon's couch. I've seen Phil Van Tee press the Bar at the Hat and Hare into service to do some bar magic.

I go often on Wednesdays and Thursdays, and have had no problem finding a space to perform. Even on Cabaret nights.

[John Lovick]

To clarify, I'm not saying that impromptu shows never happen any more, or that there is no place to do them ever.

What I am saying is that because 4 of the 5 main places to do impromptu shows on the weekends are unavailable, and because various areas are unavailable during the week, their use by long-time regulars has dropped to almost nothing.

In recent years Derek Hughes, Jon Armstrong, Derek DelGaudio, Rob Zabrecky, Fitzgerald, Tony Picasso, myself, Ray Karch, Ed Schiff, Jheff, Arthur Trace, Jeff Bornstein, and several other people did impromptu shows regularly. Now they do much much much less often.

Yes, there is the museum, but it is problematic for shows where two or three people perform together (as a lot of the impromptu shows were), and yes, there is the Jack Oakie space, but you cannot gather a crowd there, like you can in other areas.

[BruceWright]

I don't disagree with you on those points, John.

Wow. Sounds like I missed some awesome impromptu shows.

[KirkG]

It is important to note, that the Museum and Hat and Hare are only 13 steps away from the main bar and the Jack Oakie is up one flight of stairs, across a building, down a flight of stairs and across the building the other direction. So it is much harder to get people to check it out.

If someone gets turned away from the Close up Room, they just step over to the door and go down one flight of stairs and they are delivered into the museum.

[Liderc]

As for the Cabarets, very few members actually attend. It is more of guests and friends of the performer. More time, money, and energy is spent on these shows than on magic. In 18 months we will have a new election for the B.O.D.. There are members that plan on running who have a great chance of being elected, who feel the way I do. So I will wait 18 months.

Here Here!!

[Liderc]

Like has been stated above me, this is "The MAGIC Castle" and should be as such. there is no need for Cabaret shows or any Non Magic Events. except maybe once and a while for a special occasion type thing, but other then that there shouldn't be any Non Magic Events.

I Concur With John. it's taken away from the Impromptu magic of the real members of this Club. the Magicians. true there are other spaces to perform. but It's not the easiest to get a crowd down at the museum, or down to the pub, and now down to the new show room they opened.

what is the reason for all the non magic shows anyway besides money. they know most members don't go, and it's mostly guest who come and have to pay the door charge plus the ticket price and dinner. so it's Three Times the money then a normal night.

[Lisa Cousins]

Pete McCabe is right about the library (and its denizens) being the chief "victim" of the non-magic events. There's the piano thing mentioned - in fact, the use of the library for general storage, be it pianos or whatnot. There's also the removal of chairs from the library when deemed necessary, leaving people who want to study there with no place to sit. There's the use of the library as the Green Room during the plays, and there's the fact that during these events the library entrance is blocked. Castle regulars know that there are two other possible ways to access the library, one of which may work on any given evening - but many of the less frequent visitors just assume that the library is closed and that they are out of luck.

But honestly, the worst thing is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to study when you've got someone wailing out Broadway show-tunes right on the other side of the wall. The noise is unbelievable - a complete distraction.

I'll lay my cards on the table and admit that I fall on the "Keep It Magic" side of these current issues. But if other people really do like the cabarets, then perhaps the solution is to move the library to some quiet, hidden nook in the mansion. The current situation is ridiculous.

[Alan Bursky]

I wonder if they will just close the library on those nights. More non members come to these things than members. Let's see who is more important,cabaret customers or members? We now have some sort of Magic Castle Gestapo, who can even tell the B.O.D., what they can say and do. Heil Magic Castle Dark Overlord!

18 more months 'til the revolution! Magic Castle patriots now is the time to come to the aid of YOUR club!

In the words of Nathan Hale..." I regret that I only have one life to give for the Magic Castle."

Very few people know that is what Nathan Hale really said.

Signed,
Count Stauffenberg Bursky

[MagicBilly]

...there is no need for Cabaret shows or any Non Magic Events...except for special occasions...

I must disagree Liderc. All things aside, there is a pressing need to increase revenue and sadly magic has not and highly probably alone cannot support this current need. That said...

There's the piano thing mentioned - in fact, the use of the library for general storage, be it pianos or whatnot. There's also the removal of chairs from the library when deemed necessary, leaving people who want to study there with no place to sit. There's the use of the library as the Green Room during the plays, and there's the fact that during these events the library entrance is blocked. Castle regulars know that there are two other possible ways to access the library, one of which may work on any given evening - but many of the less frequent visitors just assume that the library is closed and that they are out of luck.

But honestly, the worst thing is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to study when you've got someone wailing out Broadway show-tunes right on the other side of the wall. The noise is unbelievable - a complete distraction.

I am deeply saddened to hear this. The AMA's library is a stellar resource for learning, reference and comraderie. I remember when the idea of relegating members to the Inner Circle (upstairs for paying customers) was considered. With the Inner Circle and most impromptu areas gone/re-purposed, the fact that the library is being encroached upon is outrageous. WTF!!!

...Let's see who is more important,cabaret customers or members...

I so want this answer to be Members First, Magic First.

Unfortunately, consistent higher revenue and cashflow are essential to keeping the AMA's clubhouse on prime Hollywood real estate. Gone are the days of two extremely favorable 20-year lease handshakes between Bill Larsen and Thomas Glover Sr - lease payments will increase 3,4 or more-fold. The times they are a changing and with a good handful of members reluctant to paying higher dues, other solutions are being put in place, sadly to the detriment of members and magic.

I am disappointed to see the Castle dark during the day - a great opportunity for boat-loads of money. But alas, I cannot affect this kind of change.

Members and Magic first. That has been and remains the underpinnings of the AMA's mission statement I support fully.

This thread has become a sad read.

[Terrence]

How refreshing to see these opinions.

I concur with last few previous posts.

Alan's last post is interesting to me for a particular reason:Yesterday on the Forum, the anonymous "AMA" user was lurking.

This sort of thing really creates a climate of fear and crushes free expression on a forum. Streisand Effect indeed.

It is my belief that the Castle Forum Moderation process has been subverted by intimidation from AMA management.

That same person (part of the "gang of three") ordered "Houdini's Ghost" Pat Culliton's post to be removed from the Forum, and also ordered that he be summarily banned. Simply for re-posting Milt's menu op-ed, without added commentary. Which is publicly posted here !!! This is totally outside the Moderation Process as documented in our own rules, as I read them.

I've no doubt that I'll catch hell for posting this, but you can hear about it on Genii Forum should that happen.

Well there's my opinion. Hey, I could be wrong.

Thank you RK for hosting a place where we can discuss this in the light, and thank you fellow posters on this thread.

Long live the real AMA!

[Liderc]

I wonder if they will just close the library on those nights. More non members come to these things than members. Let's see who is more important,cabaret customers or members? We now have some sort of Magic Castle Gestapo, who can even tell the B.O.D., what they can say and do. Heil Magic Castle Dark Overlord!

18 more months 'til the revolution! Magic Castle patriots now is the time to come to the aid of YOUR club!

In the words of Nathan Hale..." I regret that I only have one life to give for the Magic Castle."

Very few people know that is what Nathan Hale really said.

Signed,
Count Stauffenberg Bursky

Sign Me Up Mate! I Completely Agree

[houdini's ghost]

I would just like to agree with John Lovick that there are fewer places and opportunities for impromptu magic by members. But,the reason the Peller is no longer available for week-end "impromptu" performances is that two additional magicians have been hired on those nights to give regularly scheduled performances in that room.
The library shouldn't be a green room or a storage. I don't think it's possible to maintain a library like quiet atmosphere in a club filled with shows and crowds, but, the library space should be the library space.
Back in the 70s, I was on the library committee. The library was on the third floor, and every night in addition to a few studious library users, there were several members playing a lively, noisy, game of hearts: Dai Vernon, Joe Cossari, Hy Berg and Kuda Bux were the regulars. Nobody ever shushed them.
The library has not been as fun since the hearts players died off.
But, the Magic Castle has never been better--and I mean better for the members--than it is right now.

[Dave V]

Now that those four rowdies are gone, is there any thought to returning the library upstairs?

[Terrence]

Now that those four rowdies are gone, is there any thought to returning the library upstairs?

I don't think we could store half the books we have now if we did that.

Anyway...

[Brad Henderson]

As I have been told that I have no business commenting on any of these issues as my opinions are uninformed, this will be my last post on the matter.

So, lest my previous posts be considered a defense of the cabarets, allow me to clarify:

I have not been there to see one. I think the idea is 'cool'. However, if these events are negatively impacting the magic, they should go. It is my personal opinion, not having seen one and clearly being uninformed, that if they serve to bring people into the club who spend money and see magic, then they should stay even if they are not to everyone's taste.

However, as I posted, I suspect the cabaret is not the real issue and they are being discussed as part of larger political issues. No idea - IF it works (notice I say IF)- should be abandoned or attacked for purely political reasons.

To which I, as a member, would like to express my frustration. First, with inane rabble rousing teaser posts like that which started this thread and other's like Biro"s 'the magic castle is being invaded' thread from months back.

This 'we know something but aren't going to tell you everything, but instead make a post in a public forum about it' is assinine and needs to stop.

If there are problems at the castle, then how about we act like adults and discuss those problems. How about discussing it on the castle forum, or sending that information through emails.

While locals do benefit and are affected more directly by the castles activities, there are more people with a stake in the club than those who show up on monday night.

Yes, I do not have the information the locals have, but does that mean I am less of a member? Shouldn't we, ie the castle, be trying to reveal information and concerns rather than playing petty games and offering calls that the sky is falling?

Maybe it is about to come crashing down - But as long as we continue to act like children who are afraid to get into trouble for speaking up, or spies who attempt to manipulate players behind the scenes, we will continue to encounter crisis after crisis.

So, how about we grow the [censored] up and deal with the real problems - whatever they may be - like adults.

[Liderc]

Poster: houdini's ghost

But,the reason the Peller is no longer available for week-end "impromptu" performances is that two additional magicians have been hired on those nights to give regularly scheduled performances in that room.

that the Real Members of the club (The Magician Members) might not get to see unless they buy dinner, which i understand is another issue, but still is ludicrous.

i believe it was David Regal who said, why should the lay folk buy a chicken dinner and get front row seats to the peller or the show room, and the magician members have to wait in line.

something to that affect, and i wholeheartedly agree.


The real Members of this Club are and should be The Magician Members, we didn't buy our way in, we auditioned, we passed the test. and i fail to see how the Cabaret and non magical shows and events cater to any of the Magician Members


you say The Club has never been better for the members. yet with the non magical shows they have actually taken away from the Magician Members Impromptu shows


I'm really not trying to start an argument, everyone of course in entitled to their own opinion of things.

but it should be about the Magic and the Magician Members. and i think that is slowly fading away.

[BruceWright]

Brad, I take your points. I have only one thing to comment on. You say "how about discussing it on the Castle forum?" Please understand what's going on, as I have written in this thread: Threads are being locked in the Castle Forum. Locked because we discussed this there. People's posts are being deleted by who knows who? Member's posting accounts are being banned for posting there what's posted here.

Last night I saw Alan Bursky and some other folks discussing this in the club. I guess the invisible anonymous "Academy of Magical Arts Inc" person can't ban the words coming out of their mouths.

Alan may be using colorful analogies by calling it the gestapo, but the truth of the matter is, the powers that be control the forums and are preventing discussion there.

Which, IMO, is a much more serious problem... yet intertwined with the issue with Cabarets and Milt's construction stuff.

[Alan Bursky]

I8 more months all of this will stop. Next election, new B.O.D.
As I have said there is a growing number of members that will run for the B.O.D., who want all of this changed. Vote for them when the time comes. This will be the end of the Soviet Castle.

[Liderc]

Alan, we really need to talk

[Richard Kaufman]

In the company of Bursky one can only listen.