Do you sue?

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mrgoat
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Do you sue?

Postby mrgoat » July 5th, 2010, 1:40 pm

There is a 5 page thread on a weird little UK magic forum about suing a client for breach of contract if they cancel on a show. Lots of other magicians are on the thread saying YES SUE THE BASTARDS!!!!1111

Now, this amazes me. I get lots of repeat bookings. I wouldn't dream of suing a client if - for some reason - they had to cancel an event. I understand that people need to make a living and need to get money they thought they had coming in....but...suing them?

I was wondering what you folk in Americanland thought, seeing as you are more litigious that we are usually.

Is suing clients a good idea?

Can you IMAGINE the word of mouth that would generate?!?

Jebers!

Thoughts?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 5th, 2010, 2:25 pm

If you have a contract, then you can sue provided the cancellation is outside of whatever allowances the contract makes for the client cancelling.

However, if you sue you will never be hired by the client, or any of their business associates (or friends) again.

On the other hand, you may have purchased an expensive non-refundable plane ticket for that gig which you now can't use.

Someone might have some more insight, but it's more involved that it might appear. Once clients know that you're not going to hold them to the contract you've all signed, if word gets around then more clients are going to feel that they can cancel with impunity.

Two sides to every coin.
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David Alexander
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby David Alexander » July 5th, 2010, 4:19 pm

Deposits usually cover those problems. It should be specified in your contract that deposits secure the date. If the date is cancelled within a contractually-defined time period the deposit is forfeit. I don't work without a contract and a deposit unless it's for an agent I've known a long time and can trust. I've had exactly one relationship with an agent like that in decades of performing.

There are exceptions under Acts of God like wars and natural disasters. The recent volcano dust problem in Europe might be a good example.

If youre dealing with a regular client and its a matter of circumstances and there's a high likelyhood of being rebooked at a later date then being flexible and understanding may be the best reaction.

If it is just a situation where someone changed their mind - like the wedding is off for whatever reason - then the deposit is forfeit.

Again, deposits (Ive always required 50%) will keep them from making arbitrary decisions while protecting your cash flow.

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NCMarsh
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby NCMarsh » July 5th, 2010, 5:01 pm

The quickest way not to have clients is to sue your clients.

I use a combination of a deposit and a buy-out clause (either party can cancel for any reason by paying the other party the full performance fee (the exceptions mentioned by David are included). This not only helps to buffer against cancellation, but makes the opportunity costs smaller (if someone wants to book me to oil Selma Hayek's thighs for $10k/hr, I can pay the original client my full fee, help them find a great replacement, and their entertainment is free).

I do know performers who handle cancellation by requiring payment in full in order to confirm the date.

N.

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mrgoat
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby mrgoat » July 5th, 2010, 5:51 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:If you have a contract, then you can sue provided the cancellation is outside of whatever allowances the contract makes for the client cancelling.

However, if you sue you will never be hired by the client, or any of their business associates (or friends) again.

On the other hand, you may have purchased an expensive non-refundable plane ticket for that gig which you now can't use.

Someone might have some more insight, but it's more involved that it might appear. Once clients know that you're not going to hold them to the contract you've all signed, if word gets around then more clients are going to feel that they can cancel with impunity.

Two sides to every coin.


I am not doubting for a split second you CAN sue, just whether people think it is a good idea. The English magi on the board ALL seem to say HAHAH YES GET YOUR CASH AND RUN! Whereas I like to think more long term. Every gig I do leads to another gig and most of my work is repeat. If I even TRIED to sue anyone I am too scared of any word of mouth against me. That being said, no one has ever cancelled a gig on me.

David Alexander
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby David Alexander » July 5th, 2010, 6:01 pm

Damian,

There is no pat answer for every situation. Everyone runs their business differently. While some of your English comrades, for whatever reason - experience, philosophy, class warfare - all seem to be united in saying get your cash and run, only you can run your business as you see fit.

I think you have to do it on a case by case basis with the understanding that, as a last resort, you can always resolve the matter in court. Having been around a few high-end producers in the film and television business where disputes involved millions of dollars, some felt that going to court was an admission that the problem couldn't be worked out by personal dealings and relationships while others thought nothing of calling their $800 an hour lawyers with instructions to draw up the court papers.

The final decision is always yours based on what you think is best for you...and if you've never had a gig cancelled on you then you shouldn't worry about a situation you are unlikely to find yourself in.

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mrgoat
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby mrgoat » July 5th, 2010, 6:36 pm

David Alexander wrote:you shouldn't worry about a situation you are unlikely to find yourself in.


David

I'm not slightly worried, I was offering it as a topic for discussion. I was astounded there were 5 pages of people saying YEAH SUE THE BASTARDS. Wondered what my Americanland pals thought.

Thanks for your input.

GAMOLO
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby GAMOLO » July 5th, 2010, 6:40 pm

In the U.S., most jurisdictions have a quick (3 week) "Small Claims" type Court to handle contract disputes for amounts up to $10K. Failure of the Defendant to answer or show up can result in a default Judgment. Collection of same is another matter all together.

I don't see any sense in suing past or likely repeat clients....simply insist on a deposit for the future. If you were stiffed on a probable one time event (like a Wedding or Bar Mitzvah) then suing may well get you an acceptable negotiated settlement. If a large corporate gig (over $10K)then the risk of a bad mouthing backlash over the news of you suing makes doing so problematic.

Frank Yuen
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby Frank Yuen » July 6th, 2010, 11:41 am

NCMarsh wrote:...if someone wants to book me to oil Selma Hayek's thighs for $10k/hr, I can pay the original client my full fee, help them find a great replacement, and their entertainment is free

N.


Okay, I don't care what names I get called, I'd have to underbid you on that one!

Jon Allen
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Re: Do you sue?

Postby Jon Allen » July 6th, 2010, 2:22 pm

In the original post, the magician was booked for a Saturday night and on the day before, the client cancelled without any explanation. There was no written contract but it was judged that a verbal contract was in place and the magician won the case.

The topic has moved on to "do you take a deposit or not" which is another topic of discussion. I don't think suing a client would necessarily lead to bad publciity. If anything, it would show you are serious about your vocation.

"Why on earth did you sue that person?"

"He signed my contract and broke the Terms & Conditions. I emailed several times to try and work things out in a friendly fashion but after I kept coming up against a brick wall, what else was I suppoed to do?"


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