fushigi ball

[mai-ling]

https://www.fushigiball.com

I saw this commercial earlier this morning on the Science Channel.

[Mark Paulson]

How many did you buy?

[David Oliver]

I wonder if Michael Moschen has knowledge of this. The "moves" seem to come directly from his amazingly original act. To my knowledge, the term "contact juggling" was coined after Moschen and his unique style of juggling was introduced to the world. (My juggling friends can correct me if I'm wrong.) It has since become a common term in juggling, although (I believe) Mr. Moschen has never given anyone permission to use his style or act. As a tag to this point, I have heard from a couple of sources (not sure if true or not, but certainly seems believable), that Mr. Moschen was given an award at a juggler's convention for elevating the art, inventing new techniques, etc. A thunderous ovation followed. Instead of a thank you speech, he returned the plaque, and berated the audience as a bunch of thieves who have been stealing his original material for years, and calling it "new techniques." There was stunned silence as he left the stage. Maybe someone else has info about this particular event and its' truthfulness? Regardless, apparently theft of ideas, routines and concepts is not limited to the magic community. Just saying that it's a shame that it happens anywhere, and everywhere.

[mrgoat]

As I understand the actual history, Penn Jillette came up with the idea and gave it to Moschen.

Anyway, other people developing an original idea is what HAS to happen for anything to evolve, surely?

Someone came up with the idea, then other people saw it and changed bits, improved moves. Invented new moves, added new twists. Isn't that what happens?

Or are you saying because he thought of an idea he is the only one ever allowed to perform it? Gosh, that would make the world of performance art awfully limited, wouldn't it?

[mai-ling]

i love Michael Moschen, i didn't connect this
with him.

[David Alexander]

Michael Moschen's bio on his website does not mention the International Juggling Association's award to him in 1992.

It does mention that he is a recipient of the MacArthur "Genius" award.

Penn was Moschen's neighbor when he was growing up. They began juggling together when Moschen was around 12. In 1975 they worked together for a year juggling at the Great Adventure amusement park in NJ.

Here's what a FAQ on juggling (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/juggling-faq/)has to say:

James Ernest wrote "Contact Juggling," and thereby coined the term. (Moschen prefers "Dynamic Manipulation.") Ernest's book remains the definitive analysis and explanation of contact juggling, and is also available from Serious Juggling and Brian Dube.

The book is quite controversial among traditionalists, who maintain that only Mr. Moschen has the right to perform or write about Dynamic Manipulation. Mr. Moschen himself seems to have been the first person to make this claim.

Some individuals also claim that the book takes one of Moschen's routines and describes it movement for movement without giving proper credit. Others claim that this is not true. It is interesting to note that those who make the first claim are almost never practitioners of contact juggling, and those who make the second claim invariably are.

Mr. Moschen created quite a stir in 1992 when he objected to the publication of a review of this book in Juggler's World after the IJA had invited Moschen to be the honored guest at the '92 festival in Montreal. Moschen at first refused to attend the festival. After some reconsideration, he did attend and gave a workshop on creativity.

[David Oliver]

@David A. - Thanks for the info. I watched the above link for the "Fushigi ball" and immediately remembered how much I enjoyed Moschen's act and the stories I had heard. As I mentioned in my previous post, I had heard stories for years, and was looking to find out if anyone had other info on the matter, either confirming or denying what I had heard. Thank you for offering further information.

@MrGoat - Certainly I am not stomping on creativity at all. I have absolutely no problem with anyone taking a truly public domain effect or legally purchased effect and making their own routine out of it. Mr. Moschen's act aside, my point was to complain about those who see someone else's original discovery, and then taking it on as their own, claiming that it's public domain.

I agree with you about people adding moves, ideas or styles to already existing effects or obviously marketed routines (I've done it myself over the years with linking rings, zombie, sponge balls, Pavel's Super Walking Knot, etc.).

My concerns come when someone says, "He vanished the Statue of Liberty behind a BLUE curtain, I'm going to do it with a RED one."

Debate #1 would state, "he's being creative, he's changing the color of the curtain to fit his motif."

Debate #2 would back my argument, that only ONE person should be vanishing the Statue of Liberty. It's HIS creation, NO ONE had done it before, and it may be considered a signature piece.

We, as a community, would not allow anyone else to use a Violin as a zombie, just because they called it a Fiddle instead, would we? Of course not. Norm Nielsen took the PRINCIPLE of the zombie effect, and made it his own, after it was marketed by Joe Karson.

The advertising of the "Fushigi Ball" had people performing what (I believed to be) moves, effects and styles that I remembered were only in Mr. Moschen's original act. If he has marketed his act, then my points are moot. I was simply questioning whether he was aware of this marketed item that seems to resemble his act, or if anyone knew of his release or sale of the act.

This, in turn, led me to comment on how thievery seems to happen in other performance arts, as well. I am a huge proponent of creativity in magic, as anyone who knows me well can attest. You wrote, "other people developing an original idea is what HAS to happen for anything to evolve, surely?" This is not what I am disputing or making a comment about. Mr. Moschen certainly developed an original idea that evolved. The Fugashi Ball people, in my opinion did not develop the idea.

That's all. A simple commentary on another case of apparent thievery.

And thanks, again, to David A. for clearing up the 1992 IJA rumors.

Best to all -

[Jonathan Townsend]

https://www.fushigiball.com

I saw this commercial earlier this morning on the Science Channel.

That looks like a fun toy. Does the suspended inner sphere slow down the ball's response to shifts so you have more of a chance to adjust around it?

MM's work looked impressive in context of the Henson film Labyrinth too. :)

Is there a credit history on the bit folks do with a billiard where it seems to cling to the extended forefinger and then move?

[Dave V]

I doubt that any "inner sphere" is suspended anywhere. It looks more like a thick acrylic version of a Christmas ornament that is "silvered" on the inside. If it's solid, then one is cast inside the other making the whole thing a single solid with an inner silvering beneath a thick acrylic layer.

One thing I can see that this has going for it is that the inner silvering masks any surface flaws so it looks like it's not moving, when in fact it's rotating just like the outside is. The other thing this has going for it is the price point. Solid acrylics of this size usually go for much more than they're asking.

I'll wait and see if this actually catches on. We have an "As Seen on TV" in my city. It'll probably show up there eventually, either as the next big hit or an overstock item that never sold and is dumped at a deep discount to anyone who will carry it.

[mrgoat]

https://www.fushigiball.com

I saw this commercial earlier this morning on the Science Channel.

That looks like a fun toy. Does the suspended inner sphere slow down the ball's response to shifts so you have more of a chance to adjust around it?

MM's work looked impressive in context of the Henson film Labyrinth too. :)

Mr T

It's a juggling ball. That's all. It's a scam to try and make people think there is some [censored] nonsense inside, but it is JUST a juggling ball with a video showing contact juggling moves.

MM's labyrinth stuff was good, but he smashed A LOT of acrylics in the shooting as he was behind bowie, looking at what he was doing on monitors, very hard!

[mrgoat]

@MrGoat - Certainly I am not stomping on creativity at all. I have absolutely no problem with anyone taking a truly public domain effect or legally purchased effect and making their own routine out of it. Mr. Moschen's act aside, my point was to complain about those who see someone else's original discovery, and then taking it on as their own, claiming that it's public domain.

I agree with you about people adding moves, ideas or styles to already existing effects or obviously marketed routines (I've done it myself over the years with linking rings, zombie, sponge balls, Pavel's Super Walking Knot, etc.).

I totally understood your point, I just think it is wrong. Of course it wasn't public domain. It was an idea, that was good, and other people did it too. Someone had the idea of spinning a hulahoop around their body. So no one else is allowed to do that? With the greatest respect, nonsense.

Art would never get better if someone didn't have an idea, then other people "copy" it and improve it.

The guitar would never sound like it does today without Hendrix and then the people that heard the sound Hendrix invented and copied him. You would not have the techniques and sounds Steve Vai and Joe Satriani make without people stealing from Hendrix 30 years ago.

Acting would not be the same without Stanislavsky and the copiers.

Are you suggesting the inventor of a card move is the only person 'allowed' to do it?

If originators of ideas are the only ones allowed to perform those ideas, the pool of performers of ANY art is about to shrink by about 99.9%

Some people innovate and some people are brilliant performers.

[Ian Kendall]

I love this bit from the FAQ:

Can anyone do this?
Yes. However, we highly recommend you watch the tutorial DVD before you even attempt any illusions or maneuvers with your Fushigi Magic Gravity Ball. As with any performance art, mastering the illusions of gravity defiance, body isolations, and levitations takes practice. Please note the performers shown within the national TV spot as well as www.fushigiball.com are experienced Fushigi contact jugglers. You can learn basic maneuvers within minutes with our DVD tutorial. With practice, advanced maneuvers such as the Pyramid (Multiple Fushigi Manipulation) or Body Rolls can be attempted and possibly perfected. People often quickly master the Palm Spin, the Levitation, and the Enigma inside of one week. Once you have a good understanding of the physics behind the Fushigi Ball, you will be able to approach the art form with confidence. Note - Fushigi Balls do not float or levitate on their own.

Translation - this is going to take you _months_ of practice to be able to do half the things on the video, half as well...

To be fair, right at the bottom of the FAQ they do credit MM with developing contact work.

Ian

[David Garrity]

Is there a credit history on the bit folks do with a billiard where it seems to cling to the extended forefinger and then move?

I believe this move is credited to Alan Wakeling and is part of his billiard ball routine as outlined in Steinmeyer's book, "The Magic of Alan Wakeling."

Sincerely,
David

[Jonathan Townsend]

Thanks David. I like to distinguish between the materials one might find in use or on hand for inspiration and the individual's artistic decision to apply an aesthetic to his work.

I get the feeling there's a parallel between areas of artistic exploration and the legal argument for claim of land as property that may serve us.

[Bill Mullins]

I get the feeling there's a parallel between areas of artistic exploration and the legal argument for claim of land as property that may serve us.

Care to elaborate on this parallel?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Bill, IMHO it seems similar to the homesteading idea - building a body of work in this case.

[David Alexander]

Is there a credit history on the bit folks do with a billiard where it seems to cling to the extended forefinger and then move?

I believe this move is credited to Alan Wakeling and is part of his billiard ball routine as outlined in Steinmeyer's book, "The Magic of Alan Wakeling."

Sincerely,
David

I thought Cardini was doing this as part of his act well before Alan was born.

[Mark Collier]

A bit of magic trivia:

Andrew Goldenhersch has a great contact juggling routine and used to perform it at the Magic Castle but after discussing the controversy with Max Maven he decided to cut it from his act.

[Chris Aguilar]

How much do contact juggling balls normally cost?

[Jonathan Townsend]

How much do contact juggling balls normally cost?

Obvious setup line - thanks:

I don't know Chris, how about you give Michael Moschen a call and ask him how much he wants to let you play with * *.

[Frank Yuen]

I'll wait and see if this actually catches on. We have an "As Seen on TV" in my city. It'll probably show up there eventually, either as the next big hit or an overstock item that never sold and is dumped at a deep discount to anyone who will carry it.

Or wait a few months for the folks who learn that it isn't as easy as it looks to sell theirs on eBay.

[Chris Aguilar]

Jon,

Legit question, no snark or anything involved.

Now, a question for anyone who has actually or has real knowledge of this product.

If someone just had a casual interest in learning the basics of contact juggling, would this "Seen on TV" product be potentially worthwhile?

I see something like this, which externally seems the same thing. (even at the same price)

Reading their ad copy (fushigi)it seems like the product they're selling has some sort of off center work on the inside. I'd be curious as to how that would help with the contact juggling moves.

Although FUSHIGI can be associated with contact juggling, your FUSHIGI has been specifically designed to eliminate the lense effect that other clear acrylics possess. Your FUSHIGI is actually two balls in one and its design has received accolades from some of the top performers in the country as TRULY AMAZING, A WHOLE NEW DYNAMIC TO THIS MYSTERIOUS PERFORMANCE ART, BRILLIANT DESIGN.

I'm now aware of who Michael Moschen is, but have zero interest in crediting issues here. Just would like to know if this product is unique or has value (beyond a very basic mirrored juggling ball) for someone wanting to just casually learn some contact juggling basics.

[David Alexander]

Infomercials have a definite life span. Some, like Oxi-Clean can go on for years and become, more or less, a mainstream product. Others have the longevity of a May Fly. If this product sells well in its first few weeks we may see it around for a bit longer. If it doesn't make money quickly it will be off the air and in discount toy stores for the holidays.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Chris, I asked about that in my first post on this thread.

Those who would use the work of others without permission have no "credit" to give.

[Chris Aguilar]

Chris, I asked about that in my first post on this thread.

Those who would use the work of others without permission have no "credit" to give.

No offense Jon, but I don't give a [censored] about the crediting issues (if any) here. If MM has copyright issues, I trust someone here will notify him and he will deal with it appropriately.

Your reply has nothing to do with my question.

If I were to see this discounted somewhere (perhaps around ten bucks) I'd be tempted to get one just to mess around/have some fun with it.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Chris,

I asked this: "Does the suspended inner sphere slow down the ball's response to shifts so you have more of a chance to adjust around it?"

and below my post was given this: "I doubt that any "inner sphere" is suspended anywhere. It looks more like a thick acrylic version of a Christmas ornament that is "silvered" on the inside. If it's solid, then one is cast inside the other making the whole thing a single solid with an inner silvering beneath a thick acrylic layer."

and then this: "It's a juggling ball. That's all." in the post below that. See up about 16 posts.

Credit for reading... ?

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Acrylic-Con ... B002JJVUH2

[Dave V]

I see something like this, which externally seems the same thing. (even at the same price)

Reading their ad copy (fushigi)it seems like the product they're selling has some sort of off center work on the inside. I'd be curious as to how that would help with the contact juggling moves.

Chris,
Are we reading the same ad? The Juggling Store ball is a transparent acrylic sphere, nothing more. The Fushigi looks to be acrylic over an opaque silvered ball. It's the silvering that adds to the illusion.

What "off center" work is stated or even implied? If there was, it would be virtually useless for contact juggling.

I too am casually curious about it, and if I happen to see one on sale I'll probably get it. For the price, it looks like a pretty good deal.

[Dave V]

Finally, I found the details of this ball. In their "Safety" page they state:

"Your Fushigi... contains an inner hollow steel ball that provides the necessary reflective properties but also eliminates much of the heat energy output that is found with "clear" or even certain colored acrylic or poly resin sphere's."

In other words, the "magnifying glass" effect is eliminated by having an opaque inner core. It's the highly polished inner ball with no surface marks as a point of reference that gives it the illusion that it's stationary.

[John Lovick]

Mr. Goat.

I sent you a private message.

[themaestro]

Is there a credit history on the bit folks do with a billiard where it seems to cling to the extended forefinger and then move?

I believe this move is credited to Alan Wakeling and is part of his billiard ball routine as outlined in Steinmeyer's book, "The Magic of Alan Wakeling."

Sincerely,
David

I thought Cardini was doing this as part of his act well before Alan was born.

In discussing Roy Benson's billiard ball routine (I believe Wakeling's routine is based on Benson's) in ROY BENSON BY STARLIGHT, Levent refers to this as the Alexander Ball Roll named for the Alexander Brothers, the vaudville jugglers who popularized it. That wording would make it appear that its inventor is not definitively known or at least is not definitely the Alexander Brothers, but then a few pages later in a caption to a picutre of the Alexander Brothers it says "inventors of the Alexander Ball Roll."

Nowlin Craver

[Ian Kendall]

Heavy balls are not ideal for learning contact. For a start, at the beginning of trying to learn something like the butterfly there is a lot of throwing and catching, often on the back of the hand. Heavy balls hurt.

The best way to pick up the skill is to start with a 100mm stage ball (Dube make good ones), and then move down to a 75 or 80mm ball. When you have that under control you should be okay to try a heavier ball, such as an acrylic, but there will be small step backwards while you adjust to the new weight.

One touted advantage of the reflective core is that you cannot see through it - often with a clear acrylic you get the 'reversed magnifying glass' look which can be quite distracting (if you can be bothered to look for it). They seem to be claiming that if the ball is essentially opaque and reflective it will enhance the illusion of it 'floating'. I'm not convinced.

Ian

[Chris Aguilar]

Finally, I found the details of this ball. In their "Safety" page they state:

"Your Fushigi... contains an inner hollow steel ball that provides the necessary reflective properties but also eliminates much of the heat energy output that is found with "clear" or even certain colored acrylic or poly resin sphere's."

In other words, the "magnifying glass" effect is eliminated by having an opaque inner core. It's the highly polished inner ball with no surface marks as a point of reference that gives it the illusion that it's stationary.

Ah, that's the answer I was looking for. I was confused as to whether their product had different center of gravity qualities or different optical qualities. It seems that they're claiming the latter.

Thanks for the clarification.

[David Garrity]

Is there a credit history on the bit folks do with a billiard where it seems to cling to the extended forefinger and then move?

I believe this move is credited to Alan Wakeling and is part of his billiard ball routine as outlined in Steinmeyer's book, "The Magic of Alan Wakeling."

Sincerely,
David

I thought Cardini was doing this as part of his act well before Alan was born.

In discussing Roy Benson's billiard ball routine (I believe Wakeling's routine is based on Benson's) in ROY BENSON BY STARLIGHT, Levent refers to this as the Alexander Ball Roll named for the Alexander Brothers, the vaudville jugglers who popularized it. That wording would make it appear that its inventor is not definitively known or at least is not definitely the Alexander Brothers, but then a few pages later in a caption to a picutre of the Alexander Brothers it says "inventors of the Alexander Ball Roll."

Nowlin Craver

Nowlin,

Thank you for the clarification and apologies if the information I provided was incorrect.

Sincerely,
David

[Bill Mullins]

Bill, IMHO it seems similar to the homesteading idea - building a body of work in this case.

Thanks for clarifying. Now I understand the point you were trying to make (but I'm not sure I agree with it).

Homesteading is when a person gets claim to something that has been the common property of all of us, and we all agree on the claim devolving to an individual.

Artistic expression is created from nothing (no real estate analogy), or is built on the works of another artist (more like squatter's rights than homesteading).

[Jonathan Townsend]

That's okay - not sure I agree with your statement about artistic expression being created from nothing (if that were true I'd suspect the work would not affect others or even have meaning to the person who produced it) - or being built from work of another (implication read as only from one in the singular) artist. The idea of making a claim upon something by process of mixing labor and land (in this case in the space of artistic expression as defined by a statement of aesthetic) is where I see the parallel.

Getting back to the ball, if it's a static object in construction then the student faces the usual problems in learning MM's work. Not sure what to think of the guy who did an Angelo Lewis and published the stuff he saw being performed.

[mrgoat]

Mr. Goat.

I sent you a private message.

To which I cannot reply as the PM system is busted.

So you did a drive by.

:D

[Dan LeFay]

Since the mid 90's I've been using acrylic balls as production items in my close-up magic. Normally close-up is performed indoors. But I recall vividly when I performed outside once (on deck of a cruiseship), when I produced my balls and placed it on my close-up mat...they INSTANTLY BURNED A SMOKING HOLE in the mat! I ruined a close-up mat in one performancee though the reactions were enhanced when little wisps of smoke surrounded my acrylic balls...

So, the prim-like working of such a ball is extreme in direct sunlight.
Since this product is obviously promoted as an outdoors activity, I think it is only a matter of safety to (mass)produce them in a different form.
Obviously this has nothing to do with any "anti-gravital" enhancements whatsoever.

Just take a look at the Japanese guy who seems to be quite popular, Okotanpe (do a youtube search). He uses a regular (big) contact juggling ball and the isolation moves and floating illusion is about the best I've ever seen.

[Chris Aguilar]

Just take a look at the Japanese guy who seems to be quite popular, Okotanpe (do a youtube search).

That guys work is very impressive. Even to someone like me who isn't a huge fan of contact juggling.