Magic Skool

[Tim Ellis]

Ok, this link is to a YouTube video where exposure takes place, so it may be deleted.

But I think it's important forum members get to see it.

It's #3 in a series of videos by an Australian magician who is "teaching" magic via YouTube.

In #2 he taught 'Ring Thing' where a ring vanishes and reappears on your finger. I assume he's unaware it's a marketed effect... though he knows now, but the video is still up.

Today he posted #3, how to make a card appear by backpalming.

What's worse is that this is a clip from a very popular kids TV show he is a regular on, so it's not just his internet followers who see it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHgzI1rKzvw

[mrgoat]

NO WAIS. EXPOSING BACK PALMING AND A BAD THIMBLE MOVE!!!!11111

OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111oneoneone

[mrgoat]

Or were you joking?

Go on, tell me you were just joking. You had to be, right?

[Brendan]

Why would he be joking Goatman? It's well known that Tim is anti exposure and piracy.
I take it from your responses that you have no problem with exposure, and anyway, those card manipulators have had it too good for too long, right?
You think teaching a back palm on a kids TV show is fine Goatman, and that says a hell of a lot about your respect or lack there of, for our art.
Stop trying to be a smart ass, you know Tim was serious, you just don't care, you'd be happy to have all magic's secrets on youtube obviously, sheesh, what sort of $%^&$#@ are you?

[mrgoat]

Why would he be joking Goatman? It's well known that Tim is anti exposure and piracy.
I take it from your responses that you have no problem with exposure, and anyway, those card manipulators have had it too good for too long, right?
You think teaching a back palm on a kids TV show is fine Goatman, and that says a hell of a lot about your respect or lack there of, for our art.
Stop trying to be a smart ass, you know Tim was serious, you just don't care, you'd be happy to have all magic's secrets on youtube obviously, sheesh, what sort of $%^&$#@ are you?

I am perfectly happy to have a kids' tv show teach kids some basic magic tricks you can find in any public library, in any country, yes.

The fact that anyone at all has an issue with this amuses me no end.

Nothing to do with a lack of respect. More a lack of concern that it will have any negative impact on our industry.

Let's start a list of the dreadful things this could lead to:

1) Kids getting interested in magic
2) Um...
3) Er...

Can you add to the list? I'm kinda stumped already! How embarrassing!

[Jonathan Townsend]

Ok, this link is to a YouTube video where exposure takes place, so it may be deleted.
...

Tim, folks, they already know where to download it - from Vernon to your stuff. Only here do folks pretend that's news.

As to teaching on youtube - perhaps we should consider that a commentary on how well the products offered are serving their market - leaving a need for "customers" to seek feedback for want of comprehensive instruction.

Skool - like in Invader Zim?

[Brandon Hall]

The bigger surprise would be to find out that kids actually took the time to learn the move...I have to side with Mr Goat and Jonathan on this debate. It's much ado about nothing.

[Tim Ellis]

Fine. Sorry, guess I misunderstood the whole rule about "Keeping Secrets".

Instead of performing magic on TV anymore I'll just take the Masked Magician approach and show everyone how it's done.

[Brendan]

OK, now I'm confused, the Masked Magician was hated by magicians but those on youtube aren't. I always thought it was the exposure people disliked, but it must have been the mask. And I'm sooo sick of the whole, "it happens so it's pointless even talking about it or trying to teach young magicians better", what a bloody cop out, the mantra of the lazy defeatists and those who actually like being able to get other people's stuff for free.

Goatman, I take it you are saying that maybe getting a couple of kids interested in magic in more important than actually entertaining with magic.
Can you not see the difference between things available in libraries that people can get if they are interested as opposed to putting things on national TV? If not then you should think more about it, blind Freddy could see the difference sheesh.

So Tim, wanna do an exposure series

[Tim Ellis]

Brendan... it's not "exposure", it's "teaching"...

(Sarcasm)

People used to justify YouTube exposure by redefining it as "teaching" because those interested in magic secrets had to go to all the trouble of googling to find it.

Apparently that's the modern equivalent of going to the library and searching for a book.

Now it seems that exposure pushed onto unsuspecting TV viewers is okay if it's presented as "teaching"... (or if it's a method already available in a book or on the internet).

What a joke.

[Eugene2]

Tim is right. Teaching secrets is a wrong thing. Why do so many of you do it?
I bought secret years ago and now americans show for free like they made it.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Tim, many people don't even watch TV anymore.
And the internet is their library.

Secrets is the name of a magic product.

Teaching ... well no serious adult would presume such nor have they since Skinner showed that behavior depends more upon rewards and context than upon actual cognitive/insight in action.

Epistemology? Isn't that a tough choice between viagra and Flomax.

Metaphysics? That's how global warming and evolution can be science even though it's wrong, right?

Ontology? That's the other doctor you hope you don't get to see.

The Vulture has molted.

[mrgoat]

OK, now I'm confused, the Masked Magician was hated by magicians but those on youtube aren't.

a) He didn't do any real harm, did he? People still do the tricks he exposed all the time. Now the dust has settled, what harm did he REALLY do?

b) This is a person teaching a children's trick to children. Not really the same thing.

Goatman, I take it you are saying that maybe getting a couple of kids interested in magic in more important than actually entertaining with magic.

No. Where did I say that? Please link to the quote.

I am saying that, really, this youtube clip explaining a move you can read in any beginners' book for free is nothing to be worried about.

As I said, what are the BAD THINGS that can happen as a result of this clip.

Can you not see the difference between things available in libraries that people can get if they are interested as opposed to putting things on national TV? If not then you should think more about it, blind Freddy could see the difference sheesh.

Lol. Have you ANY idea how many kids go to libraries nowadays? I will fill you in. None. So a TV show aimed at kids taught a really simple trick to kids.

Big woop.

Again, I ask you, and anyone else worried about this, what is the ACTUAL HARM teaching a bunch of kids a thimble move brings?

Sigh.

There really are more important things to get riled about than someone teaching kids a couple of magic tricks.

[mrgoat]

Brendan... it's not "exposure", it's "teaching"...

(Sarcasm)

People used to justify YouTube exposure by redefining it as "teaching" because those interested in magic secrets had to go to all the trouble of googling to find it.

Apparently that's the modern equivalent of going to the library and searching for a book.

Now it seems that exposure pushed onto unsuspecting TV viewers is okay if it's presented as "teaching"... (or if it's a method already available in a book or on the internet).

What a joke.

I notice you cunningly sidestep me asking you what actual measurable harm this clip does.

Any suggestions on that?

I will be as clear as possible:

"What harm do you think malicious and evil exposure of a back palm and a thimble move creates?"

[Jonathan Townsend]

mrgoat, you plainly miss that Ellis' posts on exposure are designed as coded announcements for viral video/file propigation of his latest product via the internet - or perhaps a beta test of one. The rest of us will have to wait for some sort of advertisement. Maybe there's a place to click on that page he linked to which leads to his product - or a text code to a download site link?

[Brandon Hall]

Instead of performing magic on TV anymore I'll just take the Masked Magician approach and show everyone how it's done.

The only people watching will be the people interested in magic...people who do not care may see it, but if there is no interest it will not be absorbed. It's just one school of thought. I am not calling you wrong.

[Eugene2]

Magic is much more bigger in Japan and asia. This is not allowed on TV like the masked man. Magic is not big in america because of this. Teller and Penn show how lady hides on TV and now more lasvegas magicians are closing down.

[Dave V]

What is not allowed on Asian TV? Exposure? I have numerous examples of that exact thing happening, some by a "name" magician here in the States.

Penn and Teller didn't hurt magic in Las Vegas. For the last 10 years or so magic has flourished here. It's only recently that the pressure of economy has started killing off the Vegas magic shows.

[Eugene2]

Magic bars magic on TV magic everywhere. Not like america. Dave do you like masked man? He sells magic for himself and ruins it for all else.
So name magicians from the states are exposing magic. That's what I'm saying!

[Tim Ellis]

"What harm could come of it?"

Well, any kids who watched that exposure of the back palm will be way less mystified when they see a magician produced cards from thin air, no matter how skillful he or she is.

And no Goat, I don't think backpalming a card is considered a "simple kids trick", and the "thimble move" he taught in clip two is an effect created and marketed by Garrett Thomas. (Though I understand how you may not recognise it when Christopher performs it).

[Eugene2]

Why have a Magician Code if all ignore it? Kids just give away valuable secrets.
You are right. American magicians do too.
Years ago I buy Underground secret for just 50. Now itricks guy shows everyone for free.

[ChristopherWayne]

Hey everyone. I am he, the guy behind the MagicSkool Videos and the other related exposures/tutorials etc that are attempted .

To address the actual concern...I want to say its very refreshing to read your posts guys, and to know that the majority of posters are not so concerned about this, but see that there is a light side to the topic and that the world has much bigger issues to it.

The TV show that I am on is now the #1 most watched kids show in the country, I have been the "Magic Guy" on the show for nearly 4 years now, and have experienced and learnt alot in this time...What I can tell you about this time is this...
........The number of times I have heard "I got into magic because of your tricks on TV..." is phenomenal. On top of this, I have arranged for the Royal Childrens Hospital to use my MagicSkool Classes to teach unwell children Magic as a distraction of their illness, and also as a rehabilitation tool (similar to Copperfield's Project Magic). All of which has shown fantastic results.

The tricks that got me into Magic when I was a kid were those from the "Mac King School of Magic" on the Worlds Greatest Magic Show Specials. I take great honor that I am following a similar (albiet smaller) path to Mac in hopefully inspiring young kids and enthusiasts to get excited about the artform.

I want to share 3 important things...
1 - I will continue to post these videos. They get great responses and I find it rewarding to be able to pass something on to people who might get something out of it.

2 - This will be my one and only post. Tim Ellis gets a great thrill from people biting at his (weekly) rants. I am too busy performing, making TV, producing TV and spending time interacting with live humans to spend my time getting caught up in cyber rants. I would like to acknowledge that Tim has made no allowance for me to contact him to discuss this issue as two grown adults. He has been more than happy to parade his distaste via the internet etc, but will not have or allow a civil conversation about this.

3 - (YOU WILL LOVE THIS). Tim's attention to my YouTube videos over the last week has greatly enhanced my traffic...So much so that I am now sponsored by GoogleAds...Guess who pays money to advertise on my videos? Money that goes to me that is :) Me and my team were pleasently suprised when we saw this yesterday.



If anyone would like to share their thoughts with me or has any questions, feel free to contact me directly on info@gospelmagic.com.au .

Best
CW

[Jonathan Townsend]

Why have a Magician Code if all ignore it? Kids just give away valuable secrets.
You are right. American magicians do too.
Years ago I buy Underground secret for just 50. Now itricks guy shows everyone for free.

Code means someone believes someone vanished a coin or paper.

Rest is market hype.

[mrgoat]

Hilarious. There always was a school of thought that said that people bleating on about piracy drove more traffic to the piracy sites, alerting people that were unaware exactly where they could get the dodgy content.

Seems like people moaning and going on about exposure have exactly the same effect. Glad you are getting the google ads revenue now too Mr Wayne.

It is odd that Mr Ellis is so very bitter he can't allow you to enjoy teaching kids magic. In the four years you have been doing it, how many Aussie magicians do you think you have put out of work cos you taught a back palm? Thousands I reckon. :)

Keep on truckin'

[mrgoat]

"What harm could come of it?"

Well, any kids who watched that exposure of the back palm will be way less mystified when they see a magician produced cards from thin air.

And no Goat, I don't think backpalming a card is considered a "simple kids trick",

So, your big worry is because a couple kids might not be quite so mystified when they see a card manipulator? Cool.

Let's think about that.

In Oz, how many stage card manipulators are working today? Let's say 3. I am being generous.

Now, how many kids go to live stage magic shows? Not many.

Now, how long is a kids' memory? Not very long.

So, you are annoyed because someone is teaching some kids a move that they will either forget, or never see someone perform.

So, nothing really to get quite so het up about is there?

Added to which, any decent manipulator does back and front palms, which when you think you know how a back palm works would totally fry you!

Still, you've driven loads of traffic to the chap's youtube channel, so well done.

[hgebeaux]

I read posts about "exposure," especially on the Internet, all the time, and they all kind of leave me confused.
I have a library of magic books at home sold by different companies and people. All "expose" magic. When I bought the books, no one asked if I was a magician. Is this "exposure" bad?
I have belonged to various magic clubs (Rings, Assemblies, etc.), and I recall how tricks are explained constantly and how I would "session" with others and learn all sorts of secrets. Obviously, this is "exposure," but it is bad?
As a member of the IBM, I get a magazine monthly "exposing" secrets. Is this bad?
I also subscribe to other magazines and regular DVD publications, all of which "expose" secrets. Is this bad?
The Internet is filled with on-line magic shops, and I buy magic from them, all of which sell "exposure." With some, there are always specials where when I buy something, they will send me something free, something that is indeed "exposure." Is this bad?
I can go to Lybrary.com and download tons of publications, all "exposing" secrets. Is this bad?
And the list can go on and on. Lots of "exposure." Yet for some reason if this "exposure" is on the Internet, people get all worked up. What's the difference?
You could say paying for a secret is OK, but getting it for free isn't. Then what about all those "sessions" at magic clubs, all those free specials offered by nearly everyone?
And it's here where I see the actual problem - money. What seems to upset so many people is that someone's secret is revealed without that creator getting paid for it. To me, the problem here isn't "exposure," but is theft.
To me, theft is wrong (and calls for a lot of work in actually defining it), but "exposure" isn't. "Exposure" is done all the time. "Exposure" provides income to magicians. What would those people on this forum who strongly object to any kind of "exposure" say if this were expanded to include the sale of (that is "exposure") of their books and pamphlets? Why do they have a right to "expose" yet someone else doesn't?
None of this makes a lot of sense to me and needs a lot more clarity, if that is even possible.
Just my thoughts.

[timbrown]

Isn't the exposure of thousands of people to video clips of people who are exposing the secrets of magic just as damaging to the art as the exposure videos themselves? I constantly see postings (with such convenient hyperlinks) by people who are complaining about some video that exposes a secret. Now where is the logic in that?

[mrgoat]

Isn't the exposure of thousands of people to video clips of people who are exposing the secrets of magic just as damaging to the art as the exposure videos themselves? I constantly see postings (with such convenient hyperlinks) by people who are complaining about some video that exposes a secret. Now where is the logic in that?

Exactly the same thing happens with piracy sites. The pirate bay had a HUGE surge of traffic during its trial (as alexa.com shows). The more people complain on indexed, searchable permalink sites and forums, the more traffic they generate for the people they object to.

And anyway, this clearly isn't a 'malicious' exposure site. It's a kids' tv presenter who has been teaching magic tricks on his TV show for the last 4 years.

That's a long enough time to feel the massive and horrendous impact this disgusting 'teaching' has had on pro ozzie magicians. So, there are a few of you here aside from Mr Ellis. Who has had gigs cancelled because the booker saw a thimble move taught on a children's tv show? Who has been heckled because of a kids' tv show?

Sigh.

[Eugene2]

Gospel man exposes to get more people to watch. Masked man did the same for money. You say OK kids don't remember but why no cigarette ads? They do remember. You wonder why magic unpopular. No mystery. You cash in like Saigon Lady!

Mr. Tim is the good one here.

[Tim Ellis]

"Tim's attention to my YouTube videos over the last week has greatly enhanced my traffic...So much so that I am now sponsored by GoogleAds...Guess who pays money to advertise on my videos? Money that goes to me that is Me and my team were pleasently suprised when we saw this yesterday."

So this thread has had 649 hits. Mostly by repeat visitors. Let's say 300 unique hits (and that's generous). THAT has "greatly enhanced" your traffic? You've had 490 views so far.

People coming from this site would be, dare I say it, already into magic in some way or another.

Yet because I point out the URL I'm the "bad guy" as opposed to the guy who exposes the back palm to kids on national TV?

(And don't try to be funny re: GoogleAds Christopher. You know google puts ads on most YouTube videos and you know that advertisers have no say on where their ads appear. To try to imply that I'm deliberately advertising on your clip is just silly).

You say you got into magic from 'The Mac King School of Magic'. I don't recall Mac teaching back palming or any sleight of hand... some tricks are ideal to teach kids, because the kids can pick them up quickly and fool their friends. Common sense will tell most magicians what tricks are good to teach. (A colleague who works on 'Toasted TV' told me the reason you taught back palming is you weren't prepared to teach anything that day and all you had was a deck of cards on you.)

And why, I wonder, didn't I want to chat to you when you called my house three times at midnight insisting I call you back immediately?

I've spoken to you about many subjects before in the past Christopher, but you've chosen your path.

[mrgoat]

You know google puts ads on most YouTube videos and you know that advertisers have no say on where their ads appear.

Well neither of those points are true.

You need to get to x views before google offer you ads. In the UK that is 80k.

And as a google advertiser I can completely assure you can chose on which sort of sites, or which specific sites your ads appear on.

[Richard Kaufman]

It's 2010, and I'm reading this argument on the internet.

It's 1912, and I'm in Martinka's shop and hear people having an argument about how all the top magicians are exposing back palming in their acts because the guy in the next show is also doing it.

Find your own time machine. You're boring the crap out of me.

[Dustin Stinett]

Its 2010 and Im listening to vinyl records...

[Eugene2]

Why would he be joking Goatman? It's well known that Tim is anti exposure and piracy.
I take it from your responses that you have no problem with exposure, and anyway, those card manipulators have had it too good for too long, right?
You think teaching a back palm on a kids TV show is fine Goatman, and that says a hell of a lot about your respect or lack there of, for our art.
Stop trying to be a smart ass, you know Tim was serious, you just don't care, you'd be happy to have all magic's secrets on youtube obviously, sheesh, what sort of $%^&$#@ are you?

Both IBM and SAM say Mr. Tim is right. They have rules.
Goatman doesn't.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Both IBM and SAM have "guidelines".

Goatman ... has more profitable things to fuss over.

[Eugene2]

They are named ethics and rules but Mr. Goat has none.
http://www.life123.com/hobbies/magic-il ... cret.shtml
Even I know them. It's all money for Mr. Goat and the TV exposer.

[Jonathan Townsend]

E*, our large magic-related clubs which offer a useful social venue and also support the magic market's base functions.

As there are IBM and SAM members who have and are named on publicly available means of learning the mechanics of guile IMHO your argument is moot - and this discussion parallels the one where someone gets nostalgic for values long lost and someone else cites that funny letter from ancient Rome.

[Tim Ellis]

"You need to get to x views before google offer you ads. In the UK that is 80k.

And as a google advertiser I can completely assure you can chose on which sort of sites, or which specific sites your ads appear on."



Well that's interesting. How many views does Christopher's Magic Skool clip have? Oh look, he's just 75,500 views short of 80k.

And yes, I can choose if I don't want my ads to appear on YouTube, but not if I don't want specific clips.

I really thought the internet was supposed to be your area of expertise, Goat.

[mrgoat]

Well that's interesting. How many views does Christopher's Magic Skool clip have? Oh look, he's just 75,500 views short of 80k.

Brilliant! You are king of the Straw Man. You really are.

You said this, let me remind you:

You know google puts ads on most YouTube videos and you know that advertisers have no say on where their ads appear.

To which I replied that you were wrong because you had to have (in the uk) 80k posts and that as an advertiser you could chose which sites to advertise on.

I really thought the internet was supposed to be your area of expertise, Goat.

"The Internet" is a very broad reaching stage. I do marketing on the internet. Hence I know exactly how many page views a video needs before google want to advertise on it and I know exactly how to select which sites my ads appear on.

I love how, rather than answer my very direct questions about the harm teaching children magic on a tv show for 4 years does to professional magicians, you decide to Straw Man how google puts ads on youtube. Brilliant misdirection!

[mrgoat]

Why would he be joking Goatman? It's well known that Tim is anti exposure and piracy.
I take it from your responses that you have no problem with exposure, and anyway, those card manipulators have had it too good for too long, right?
You think teaching a back palm on a kids TV show is fine Goatman, and that says a hell of a lot about your respect or lack there of, for our art.
Stop trying to be a smart ass, you know Tim was serious, you just don't care, you'd be happy to have all magic's secrets on youtube obviously, sheesh, what sort of $%^&$#@ are you?

Both IBM and SAM say Mr. Tim is right. They have rules.
Goatman doesn't.

You're very funny.

Who are you really?

Come on mods, someone match up his IP for me.