Banned from Blackpool for my "Safety"

[Richard Kaufman]

I don't want to hear any more talk about the superiority of English breakfasts. Seeing a pile of baked beans first thing in the morning is not pleasant.

[Mark.Lewis]

Then don't have the baked beans. I never do. In fact I hate the bloody things and always have. Forget the beans and eat the other stuff. Full of wonderful cholestorel. I have been a fan of unhealthy food all my life.

[Mark.Lewis]

If Derek books an act for Blackpool on behalf of the Blackpool Magicians Club I really wonder if it is ethical for him suddenly to put on another hat and become an agent. It does sound a bit "off" in my opinion.

[Mark.Lewis]

Now that I have brilliantly cleared up the Lambert matter I must now answer the dastardly remarks about my wondrous stage hypnosis course that has earned James Munton loads of money and another person not so much.

I do not want the matter on this confusing thread so to give it clarity I shall in due course start another one dealing with stage hypnosis only.

For the moment I shall merely say that a learning experience is a two way matter. You have to have a good teacher but you also have to have a good student. It seems that James Munton is a good student. The other chap not so much. I am afraid that in future he needs to pay attention in class.

He will be given another chance to do so on another thread.

[Jolly Roger]

I hate to go off topic, but seeing as you mention the name James Munton, you might like to know that James and I will be lecturing at a convention in Washington DC in January. Check out the link: www.KapitalKidvention.com

JR

[Mark.Lewis]

Roger seems to be advertising again on threads that are nothing to do with him. He is a scoundrel of the first magnitude.

I am going to make a psychic prediction. I am shortly going to start a thread about how svengali pitchmen gather a crowd. Within a few posts he will suddenly chime in and say that he used to be a svengali pitchman and on the basis of this feels that he is entitled to advertise his book about the Spiritual Stage when he knows perfectly well that there is nothing spiritual in the slightest about the svengali business.

The closest connection that grafters (pitchmen) have to do with spirits is that they consume them in great quantities after the day's work is done. Oddly enough I never did but then I have always been a saintly kind of person.

[CraigMitchell]

To go back on topic ... some of you may recall that Derek Lever announced the "FISM World Championships of Childrens Entertainers" ( without the knowledge of anyone in the FISM General Assembly )

It has now been officially confirmed ( as expected ) by FISM that no such competition exists, that there is no new 'childrens magic' category at FISM nor is there likely to be in the near future.

It was all just a terrible 'misunderstanding' on the part of Mr Lever.

I suppose this is the same 'misunderstanding' where Paul Daniels is unofficially banned but welcome at the same time.

[mrgoat]

To go back on topic ... some of you may recall that Derek Lever announced the "FISM World Championships of Childrens Entertainers" ( without the knowledge of anyone in the FISM General Assembly )

It has now been officially confirmed ( as expected ) by FISM that no such competition exists, that there is no new 'childrens magic' category at FISM nor is there likely to be in the near future.

It was all just a terrible 'misunderstanding' on the part of Mr Lever.

I suppose this is the same 'misunderstanding' where Paul Daniels is unofficially banned but welcome at the same time.

Lever is sending out little monkeys to all the forums to try and help him. One on another forum said of this:

"The children's competition is held at the Blackpool convention. It was previously named as the 'UK children's entertainer of the year competition', but with the permission he was given by the FISM representative, he has been allowed to change the name of the Blackpool kids competition to 'World champion children's entertainer of the year'."

Misinformation and gossip everywhere.

I should update http://blackpoolmagicsucks.wordpress.com

[Richard Kaufman]

The business about Paul Daniels is simple: if were to attend the Blackpool convention, he would have to purchase a ticket like most other people. He would no longer be automatically comped. That's what an "invitation" means--you don't pay the registration.

[Amazing Stephen]

True. Paul Daniels would have to buy a ticket like everyone, just like me, just like you and just like David Blaine did when he visited last year. Just because he is Paul Daniels does not mean he gets to walk into an event for free.

From the very first mention of the childrens world championship it did state that it would be held at the Blackpool convention. It has never, ever been stated anywhere that it was to be held at FISM. Get your facts straight.

Just because we actually read what you have to say, and have differing opinion to the situation does not make us Derek Levers Monkeys. I dont speak for him, I just disagree with your interpretation of the facts. My beliefs are reinforced by the fact that Richard himself had to delete half the posts because of the lies that had been told. The exaggerated rumours and nonsense storytelling was hurtful and it was simply about time that someone stepped up and stood up to you.

If you keep to the facts, then I would have nothing to argue against.

[MJ Emigh]

Please take a look at this quote from The Gazette:

>>>Derek Lever, chairman of the club, said: "He is not welcome in Blackpool and we will not be inviting him.<<<

It would appear that there are two statements in one. 1) He is not welcome and 2) We will not be inviting him. Based on that, I don't think it's just a matter of his not being comped. The question remains just who he is not welcomed by.

-MJ

[CraigMitchell]

Stephen - Derek announced a "FISM World Championships of Childrens Entertainers" to be taking place at Blackpool 2010.

There is no such event. And there never was a "FISM World Championships of Childrens Entertainers" And neither was such an event sanctioned by anyone. This has now been officially confirmed.



No details were provided by the organisers. And no enquiries from anyone regarding the mystery event were answered. So no surprise that there was confusion regarding what possible shape or form this non-existent "FISM World Championships of Childrens Entertainers" was going to take.

Not surprisingly there has been no subsequent release correcting this erroneous announcement. It was just quietly deleted - I assume hoping that no one would notice.

Blackpool will be having their normal Childrens Magic contest as per normal.

It is not though the FISM World Championships of Childrens Entertainers as announced. Minor difference.

It was just a 'misunderstanding'

[MJ Emigh]

It appears that no one did say that the childrens' catagory was to be held at FISM, itself. I'm very curious about how the FISM name was hijacked for the competition, however. Is not FISM a protected name? Can I use it to promote a local elementary school talent show, for example?

[Richard Kaufman]

Having a FISM category for Children's Entertainers is a worthwhile idea, provided you have an audience of children to perform for, and a group of qualified judges in that area.

Doing magic for children well is a complex endeavor, with its own set of psychological issues, as I learned when editing and publishing David Kaye's book Seriously Silly.

I also think Children's Entertainers are given short shrift in the magic world by other types of performers and should receive their due at FISM level. I assume that's what Derek Lever was aiming for and, perhaps, he was unaware that anything to do with FISM has to be approved by the body itself. To give him the benefit of the doubt, let's assume he was being a little overenthusiastic.

[Tim Ellis]

If you keep to the facts, then I would have nothing to argue against.

Good advice Stephen

[Jolly Roger]

Having a FISM category for Children's Entertainers is a worthwhile idea, provided you have an audience of children to perform for, and a group of qualified judges in that area.

Doing magic for children well is a complex endeavor, with its own set of psychological issues, as I learned when editing and publishing David Kaye's book Seriously Silly.

I also think Children's Entertainers are given short shrift in the magic world by other types of performers and should receive their due at FISM level. I assume that's what Derek Lever was aiming for and, perhaps, he was unaware that anything to do with FISM has to be approved by the body itself. To give him the benefit of the doubt, let's assume he was being a little overenthusiastic.

Spot on, Richard. I absolutely believe that children's entertainers are given short thrift in the magic world, and I think it would be wonderful for there to be an opening for them at FISM. I also agree that there should be an audience of children to hand, who could act as both audience and judges.

Derek Lever is a big fan of children's entertainers. I was lucky enough to be chosen to participate as one of six in the first wold championship to be held at the Blackpool Opera house in 2008. Kimmo was deservedly the winner. David Ginn and myself were the only two participating from the USA(even though I am British!!).

I was delighted when Richard decided to open up a children's entertainment area on this very forum. I believe there are more professional children's entertainers in the world of magic than there are professional adult magicians. I hope Derek Lever will manage to persuade FISM not to overlook this fact. JR

[Mark.Lewis]

Children's entertainers are not given "short thrift" in the UK and I have noticed that they have higher status among other magicians in that country than they do over here for some odd reason I know not what.

I agree however with the late Goodliffe that it is a very silly thing for a professional magician to go in for any kind of magic competition at a convention. If you lose then your status as a pro is considerably diminished and if you win people will shrug their shoulders and say "well, what do you expect?" And of course you usually do lose for reasons not necessarily related to talent. It is too much of a risk to take for a pro. I suppose they get tempted because of the prize money.

I remember Albert Goshman one of the great close up magicians going in for a close up magic competition and coming in fifth. I would also note that DAvid Ginn, he of the many books and sterling reputation as a children's entertainer, got absolutely nowhere in the competition you just mentioned.

You really can end up looking like a right twit if you have any kind of reputation. I have often said to Paul Pacific that if Kreskin went in for a mentalist's competition he would come in last.

Of course Roger has nothing to lose in these kinds of competitions since he looks like a real twit anyway wearing a green dress.

[Tim Ellis]

So the 'World Championship of Children's Entertainers' has already been staged at the Blackpool Convention?

Twice so far.

I found a reference to 2008 http://mattparro.blogspot.com/2008/02/c ... world.html

and a video from 2009 http://www.forthvalleymagic.co.uk/black ... -wc-video/

So, was the announcement from Blackpool saying that this annual competition was now an official FISM event?


And yes, I do agree that 'Children's Entertainers' should not be overlooked at FISM (and indeed there are other categories of magic which could be added as well) but how would it fit in to the Grand Prix contest? They've already decided you can't judge close up against Stage, so they created two Grand Prix prizes... if they add Children's Entertainers would they need to add a third Grand Prix?

[Richard Kaufman]

Adding new categories is always a complex issue. Why should a mentalist be competing against an illusionist for the stage Grand Prix?

[Tim Ellis]

I agree.

'Mentalism'... should it be in Close Up or Stage? (2006 FISM it was in both!)
Same with 'Parlour'.

As it stands, there are always more (at least twice as many) people and categories competing for the Stage grand Prix than the Close Up Grand Prix.

[Tim Ellis]

As far as the commission issue goes, apparently Derek (as Convention Organiser) contracts an entertainment agency (Derek is co-owner) to book the acts for Blackpool.

This is logical and I would assume that a commission would be charged by the agency to the convention for each act booked.

As has been told to me by several Blackpool acts, the agency instead attempts to take a commission out of the performer's fee.

This seems to be the wrong way around as the agency is representing the convention, not the performer. Even odder is the fact that the performers didn't agree to it in the first place.

[Mark.Lewis]

In that case you may be in for a shock when you come to the CAM convention in Canada.For all you know I might be in charge of the agency who books the acts for the convention. Of course you won't find out the financial side of things until you get here. Like Lever I am also from Blackpool.

[Tim Ellis]

I don't think anything you do could shock me Mark. ;)

[Mark.Lewis]

If you found that Derek Lever were my partner in the agency I think that might do it.

[CraigMitchell]

Personally - I think a Childrens Magic element at a convention is a great idea ( in exactly the same way that some other events have incorporated 'street magic' / 'busking' as an additional performance area. Judging a children's contest, however as we all agree, is exceptionally difficult ...

But if Blackpool has already staged their 'Blackpool World Championship of Children's Entertainers' ( it used to be a UK contest before the title appeared to get bigger ) entrance requirements and judging criteria need to be fair and transparent.

You can't simply stick the FISM moniker on your event and then expect to be able to still follow your own rules ( a single person decides who can and can't enter for instance )

[Tim Ellis]

The thing Blackpool do well is, it seems, they only have 5 contestants performing to the same group of children.

(Can you imagine them having to sit through 20 acts?)

But, in creating a FISM Children's Entertainer comp, you'd get hundreds of entries... who narrows them down to a select handful?

Also, unlike the very patient FISM audiences who sit through hours of acts, how do the kids react when they see the same tricks, plots or props repeated? Is there a particular advantage to the acts who go on first?

[mrgoat]

Just because we actually read what you have to say, and have differing opinion to the situation does not make us Derek Levers Monkeys.

Well of course you'd say that. If a spy is caught out he doesn't just say "Oh Yes, I AM a spy. Sorry".

You are more than entitled to your opinion that Blackpool is a nice place and that Lever is a sound business man with morals.

However, as has been proven, it is YOU who got YOUR facts wrong.

Sigh.

x

PS I like your capitalisation of Monkeys. Makes it seem like an official job title. I can see Lever in my the window shouting after you, "Fly my pretties!"

[Mark.Lewis]

I must inform Mr Ellis that there is ALWAYS an advantage in going on early in a bill of magicians and preferably first. I learned that rather a long time ago. And it also applies in certain instances where the other acts on the bill are not magicians. However with magicians it is especially advantageous.Closing a show is great for the ego but it doesn't do anything for your effectiveness.

I didn't know that Derek Lever actually kept monkeys. He must be an animal lover. In all my years in Blackpool I never saw a monkey. Come to think of I never saw one in Ireland either. I did see plenty of rats though.

[MagicRabbit]

In all my years in Blackpool I never saw a monkey. Come to think of I never saw one in Ireland either.

Hartlepool, my friend, Hartlepool. The difference between Hartlepool and Blackpool is only a few letters....

Back on topic--Excuse my naivete, but wouldn't it be easy enough for Mr. Lever to come on here or some other forum and take part in an on-line discussion? Here would be best since it seems some other forums have banned some of those most concerned in the matters at hand (or so I believe; please correct me if I'm wrong).

A little open give-and-take, right out in public (so to speak) would go a long way towards clearing up misunderstandings (if any), provide some transparency to the "banning" process and clear away the innuendo that seems to be popping up on both sides.

And "Greetings!" from a newbie. This thread has been fascinating reading.

MR (in no way affiliated with MagicBunny, merely the roommate of Bean the Clairvoyant Rabbit and who, sadly, can't afford to attend FISM or Blackpool any time in the near future and is a totally innocent bystander)

[mrgoat]

There's first-hand news about the alledged Derek Lever agency commission sent to me and is on my blog

"Hello, I know from first hand experience that Derek Lever expects a 10% commission on the acts he books for the Blackpool convention. However I refused and told the treasurer paying me that it was not coming out of the agreed amount as I had never heard of this commission until the moment I was there getting paid.

I heard from other performers that he tried to pull the same thing with their fee. All of them refused to pay anything out of their fee.

But whether the Blackpool Magicians Club paid 11.1111% (the amount necessary to result in Derek receiving 10% of the total paid for my act) over and above my fee to Derek Lever and his partner (whose name I do not recall) I do not know."

http://blackpoolmagicsucks.wordpress.co ... sion-fees/

[Mark.Lewis]

Good heavens! I must say that Derek was very generous on that occasion. I have heard that his normal rate of commission is 15%.
Vegas has always prided itself on being Sin City. I can assure you that it has NOTHING on Blackpool where I first got my evil education.

All this reminds me of the time I was booked to work the Stork Room in London owned by the late Al Burnett. He helped me in my act when I performed at the club next door. He booked me but I had to go through an agency which took a percentage. When I went round to the agency I found that it was owned by his son!

The more I read about Derek Lever the more I think I like him. He sounds like a man after my own heart.

I shall merely say that anyone who deals with Blackpool has to get used to deception and wickedness. And crappy bed and breakfast guest places too of course. In my day I think they were actually much better.

[Q. Kumber]

There's first-hand news about the alledged Derek Lever agency commission sent to me and is on my blog

"Hello, I know from first hand experience that Derek Lever expects a 10% commission on the acts he books for the Blackpool convention. However I refused and told the treasurer paying me that it was not coming out of the agreed amount as I had never heard of this commission until the moment I was there getting paid.

I heard from other performers that he tried to pull the same thing with their fee. All of them refused to pay anything out of their fee.

But whether the Blackpool Magicians Club paid 11.1111% (the amount necessary to result in Derek receiving 10% of the total paid for my act) over and above my fee to Derek Lever and his partner (whose name I do not recall) I do not know."

http://blackpoolmagicsucks.wordpress.co ... sion-fees/

I do not believe this for a minute. Every performer at Blackpool signs a contract well in advance stating exactly what their fee is, and every performer signs a receipt upon payment. Twice I have appeared at the Blackpool convention and each time (2009 being the most recent) that is exactly what happened.

If a commission is being charged to the act, then it would be in the contract.

[Richard Kaufman]

It would be interesting to have a performer to whom this has happened, if it has happened, willing to write about it publicly, but I doubt this is going to happen because Blackpool makes money for its lecturers and every ones to go back and work again.

[Richard Kaufman]

Now, I would like to see this thread return to the issue of FISM 2012. And that's all I want to see on this thread in the future. I will delete all subsequent posts not specifically related FISM 2012.

[Tim Ellis]

But the original topic was about Craig Mitchell being banned from Blackpool 2010...

[Q. Kumber]

Now, I would like to see this thread return to the issue of FISM 2012. And that's all I want to see on this thread in the future. I will delete all subsequent posts not specifically related FISM 2012.

Richard, As this thread is titled Banned from Blackpool for my "Safety", might I suggest that this thread is more of a side issue and that a separate thread be started specifically for FISM 2012, and leave all discussion about banning to this thread. It would certainly make it easier for browsing magicians to find relevant information.

[Richard Kaufman]

Ah, good point. I'm going to lock this thread, then, since it has run its course. If someone has something legitimate to say about FISM at Blackpool in 2012, then a new thread will be started.