Banned from Blackpool for my "Safety"

[Q. Kumber]

He might even do the same to you as he did to me in last years Gala Show, and beam up onto the stage by Giant TV screen for 3200 magicians, A photograph of you with a gun placed to you're head, With the Nike logo below it, and also he placed the wording asking me to blow my brains out in front of everyone.

Maybe my memory is failing me but I don't recall any such happening at the gala show.

[Sebastien L.]

I've got to say that as someone completely uninvolved with this that this Mr. Lever sounds completely unhinged and that if the FISM general assembly doesn't act, FISM itself would seem to not be working in the interest of all magicians.

[mrgoat]

Damian - the link is http://www.cdrmagic.com/info.htm

Can't believe you didn't try that...

I tried hmtl and not htm!

Jebers, I feel like a lamer.

Thanks!

[naquada]

Bullying? OK... let's talk bullying... Wouldn't banning someone for having a differing opinion be bullying? Especially when it can be randomly applied to friends and family of the person that has expressed the opinion. I agree with regard to impersonation, but really.... who is the bully in this topic?

Dodd my comment was 'is it then right...' meaning whatever the disagreement.. is it THEN right for mr goat to set up a twitter account to impersonate someone?

I dont really want to get into this debate more as I was stung by various people in connection with a certain southern convention who attempted to hijack our website/trading-mark for their own ends, threw all sorts of accusations at me and insults because of their 'assumptions'.. I dont (And I know others dont) want to go through that distress and upset again..

that was also bullying, but on the part of people who accused others of bullying.. including at least one person who has posted on this thread.. yet strangely no one said a word about it...

it would actually be nice if everyone got along.. but i'm out of here on this one..

[CraigMitchell]

"it would actually be nice if everyone got along"

Confirmed.

I am confident that once the relevant parties in the organisations have had an opportunity to review this matter - a reasonable way forward will be announced to ensure that no person is unfairly excluded.

[CARL DE ROME]

Hello there Mr Goat, ( you're not called Billy are you )

No what he did was. During the interval of the Gala Show up on the Giant screen,
on the stage of the Opera House In Blackpool, this is the Biggest theatre in Europe,

I was informed by many magicians that he beamed a head and shoulders promotional photograph of myself up onto the stage with a revolver to my head, and underneath this he put the words,
Go on then I dare you, Pull the trigger, then after a few minutes later it changed to
Come on then do it, do it. I dare you
If I had attended this convention myself I would have been up onto the stage personally to sort it out myself,
Unfortunately I only found out about this, and his wordings about me in the Convention program on the Mondayafternoon, The day after the convention had finished.

I have just been onto my web site to check it out and all is working OK, so here is the link again.
http://www.cdrmagic.com/info.htm But just incase it does not open, Try and open up my web site www.cdrmagic.com and on the left hand side click on the News/info tab, this will work
And the FULL story of the Carl DeRome/ Derek Lever saga is there in its entirety,
You will NOT believe it, but I swear every word is true,

I've been requested, Sorry Ordered to take it down by Derek Lever and his Friends, Including Duncan Trillo the owner and boss of MagicWeek the UK online weekly magic E Magazine.
But I'm a stubborn sod and refuse to do so. This is something magicians everywhere need to know about what's happening with the organizer of the worlds biggest magic convention..
And how he likes to play the big man, or as I and others have put play God.

Because I have spoken out and informed people of what Derek Lever is really like MagicWeek have now taken away all references to our shows, and taken away all links advertising our show from the magicians page , and now flatly refuse to have anything at all to do with what me and my wife/assistant Merete do, or even mention our name.

By the way MagicWeek was awarded the Murray Award at last years convention, from Derek Lever and the Blackpool Magicians Club, Coincidence or what?. you decide???


Carl de Rome

[CraigMitchell]

Mr Lever did indeed believe in freedom of speech in 1979 - 1983.

"The Derek Lever Magic Magazine started in October 1979 and the final issue was published in August 1983. When Derek Lever launched Magic Mag he felt that the entire magic scene had become stagnant and uninteresting and once the magazine was launched he was not afraid of having a dig at anyone and everyone. It was an outspoken magazine ..."

Mr Lever was entitled to an opinion. Mr Lever was entitled to publish that opinion. But no one else may do the same ?

[Q. Kumber]

It's now starting to look like to me this was a well-planned strategy by Craig Mitchell, possibly in cahoots with Carl de Rome, to see if he could get himself banned from Blackpool.

It's one thing to offer an opinion, it's another to knock it home with a sledgehammer all over the internet.

Everyone seems to be unanimous of the principle of Freedom Of Speech. If you agree with it, you must also agree that others have the freedom to respond. Some will respond with words and some with actions and some will ignore you.

If you tell your boss what you think of him, you can't complain if he fires you.

[CraigMitchell]

Quentin, with the greatest of respect I am afraid you are wrong and comes across as a cheap shot to attack my credibility.

If you believe that my goal was to get banned - then I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken and I take great offence at the suggestion.

"If you tell your boss what you think of him, you can't complain if he fires you."

Mr Lever is not my boss nor is he the 'boss' of any FISM delegate. The facts remain.

It is interesting though to contrast in general the response to this matter of those in the UK to those outside of the UK - with a potential sanction hanging over anyone's head that may not toe the 'party' line.

[mrgoat]

Dodd my comment was 'is it then right...' meaning whatever the disagreement.. is it THEN right for mr goat to set up a twitter account to impersonate someone?

Yes why on earth shouldn't one be allowed to take the piss out of someone else? Especially someone as seeming worthy as Mr Lever.

Fortunately the law allows satire.

It's not so keen on inciting 3,200 people to kill someone though.

[mrgoat]

If you tell your boss what you think of him, you can't complain if he fires you.

Lever is the boss of a magic club in Blackpoo.

He is not the boss of Craig, nor of FISM.

Craig should be allowed to say what he thinks about anything without fear of being BANNED from an event not owned by Lever. And threatened. It's disgusting.

And you seem to be the only person supporting Lever here. Is he paying you to post?

I have emailed every contact on the FISM website informing them of this thread and asking if they approve of Lever's infamous ban list now being applied to their convention. I will post any replies I get here and on Blackpool Magic Sucks

[Jonathan Townsend]

So far this reads as backhanded publicity for the next FISM. Sort of an 'are you tough enough to handle...' campaign.

Interesting poster for the convention - perhaps get Malcolm McDowell to MC too?

[mrgoat]

Doh. Got the link wrong. Although I am now 3rd on google for Blackpool Magic Sucks. In 48 hours. Which shows the weight Google puts on domains.

Search engine optimisation is EASY.

;)

[Tom Stone]

And you seem to be the only person supporting Lever here. Is he paying you to post?

Careful. A thread like this can easily lose focus, and then the whole topic will lose credibility on all sides. It's better to ask Quentin, kindly, about his posts, than to assume he is a puppet.

[Tom Stone]

It's now starting to look like to me this was a well-planned strategy by Craig Mitchell, possibly in cahoots with Carl de Rome, to see if he could get himself banned from Blackpool.

Quentin, I can not quite follow the logic in this theory. I'd be grateful if you could explain it more clearly.

Had the chronology been reversed, I certainly would see your point.
That is, if it had started with Craig's "sledgehammer" style, and that he then got banned.
But, to me, it seems like it is the opposite - the ban came first, and the "sledgehammer" protests came afterwards.

If I have misunderstood anything, please correct me.

[Richard Kaufman]

The thing I see lacking at the moment is a concrete connection between being banned from the regular Blackpool convention and being banned from FISM 2012 which is being run by the same people and which will take place in Blackpool. Unless someone sends in his or her registration for FISM 2012 and has it returned, or repeatedly ignored, we cannot say that anyone is being banned with certainty.

[CraigMitchell]

And thankfully we are not going to have find out because Mr Lever will now be required to acknowledge that no one can been banned from FISM without due process nor will anyone be excluded ( dealers too ) as a result of any arbitrary BMC bans in place.

Lest we forget:

"Blackpool Committee ... will decide whether I was eligible for a Fism ticket"

or

i have already been told my a member of bmc that anyone derek has barred wiil not be allocated tickets for fism and i have already been refused a dealer booth and a guy who was working for me was told he would not be able to attend either

Any inference, suggestion or unspoken understanding of a 'ban' will instantly be removed and we will have guaranteed the right of anyone to apply.

[Tom Stone]

Craig, I just noticed the fism2012.org site.

If you want the main FISM organisation to ensure that you are treated fairly, I don't think that cybersquatting is the best way. I suggest that you move that site to another domain.

[CraigMitchell]

This is a side issue Tom - but cybersquatting is registering a domain name with *bad faith* intent to commercially profit from it.

Nothing precludes them from selecting another name of their choosing ( fism2012blackpool ? ) or as they are currently doing -blackpoolmagic.com where all the relevant info can be found.

My site is setup to serve as a home for all things related to fism in blackpool reports, videos, photos, updates & more in the lead up to the big event - and provides a much appreciated service by many. I have been reporting on FISM since 1997 and my reports have grown to a stage where they are syndicated across the internet with an ever-increasing readership. It only makes sense to have these centralised.

I had intended to bring readers a first hand view of preparations leading upto FISM by visiting Blackpool in 2010 - to provide an indepth look at the venues, facilities etc. but that is now obviously not to be ( and hence my postings on the matter ) If the organisers of the preceding events have deemed me to be 'persona non grata' - then there is not too much I can do in terms of getting access ahead of time. But that is a situation of their own making.

[Magic Newswire]

I do not agree with someone setting up a fake Twitter account to impersonate someone. Fortunately, Twitter acts quickly to address such occurrences if the offended party contacts them.

I too think it best that we keep this discussion on track. I know of the Southern convention and the issues that were involved in that incident.

For the record, there were some very nasty comments posted about Mr. Lever at the Magic Newswire which were nothing but petty name calling. They were immediately deleted as they offered nothing constructive to the conversation.

[Tom Stone]

I had intended to bring readers a first hand view of preparations leading upto FISM by visiting Blackpool in 2010 - to provide an indepth look at the venues, facilities etc.

I do not doubt that. But you must agree that very little of your original intentions are visible right now. One has to be a mindreader to figure out that the original intentions were positive. To an uninformed observer, it looks just like cybersquatting or name-jacking. I'm not saying this as critizism, but as a caution - it looks like bad faith and might weaken your position. I think it is best to keep the critique against the Blackpool organisers separate from the main FISM organisation. At least for now.

[CraigMitchell]

Valid point. Thanks Tom.

[CARL DE ROME]

With reference to Mr Quentin Reynolds saying

Maybe my memory is failing me but I don't recall any such happening at the gala show.

My apologies to you Quentin, as I have just been reminded from a magician there at the time,
That it was during the interval of the Gala Show on the Saturday evening in the Opera House,
not the second Gala Show performed on the Sunday Evening,
But the attendance was still about the same 3200 people there, and I was still requested to BLOW MY BRAINS OUT. Unfortunately if taken together with what he printed in the program about me, this request was not any kind of Joke,

As for Mr Reynolds other remark and I quote

It's now starting to look like to me this was a well-planned strategy by Craig Mitchell, possibly in cahoots with Carl de Rome, to see if he could get himself banned from Blackpool.

Until yesterday evening, I had never even heard of Craig Mitchell, or personally ever read any article he had published, and have never had any contact with him what so ever, and as far as I know I do not think Craig Mitchell also even knew that I existed,
I thought I would put this record straight here, and Craig Mitchell might also like to confirm this accusation as totally false.

Years ago I use to think very highly of Derek Lever like most of the others in the magic world still do,
Then one day I found out what he is really like when he takes a dislike to you.
I do hope that you never ever have to be put thru what I have been thru over these years, as its not nice at all.

Posting By Mr GOAT.re Quentin Revnolds

And you seem to be the only person supporting Lever here. Is he paying you to post?

I dont know if you're assumption is true here, but Derek Lever does get a lot of others to do his dirty work for him, like last year when he got one particular member of the BMC to contact contracted artists already booked for another convention, and offered them more money and a chance to be on his gala show, if they cancelled there contract with the other venue.
And if they did not oblige, yep youve guessed it they would be banned for life from any future Blackpool Magic conventions,

Lastly to TOM STONE in SWEDEN,

Here is an open invitation to you, If ever you are in Norway please get in contact with me
As you are more than welcome to stay over, or If you are to attend The Ivardos mini magic congress to be held in Oslo on the 5th and 6th of September, http://www.magiskering.no
we are booked to performon the Saturday night Gala show.
And we can hook up for a good chat. And a Beer afterwards.

Carl de Rome

[David Alexander]

Oddly enough, not one of the amateurs and professionals who've attended the Blackpool convention that I've spoken with over the years said anything different from what Craig has posted here.

I did hear one thing about Derek Lever that bothered me that doesn't seem to have been mentioned. If it's not true I'm more than willing to be corrected, but I was told by more than one person that Lever demands a commission from the acts he books on his convention.

Since my interest in attending Blackpool, let alone performing there, is nil, being banned isn't something that would bother me in the least, so I bring this up to find out if it's true or not.

I would like to know if the booker of the biggest magic convention in the world actually demands a "commission" (others might call it a kickback) from the acts he books.

Anyone with any direct experience care to comment?

[Magic Newswire]

The thing I see lacking at the moment is a concrete connection between being banned from the regular Blackpool convention and being banned from FISM 2012 which is being run by the same people and which will take place in Blackpool. Unless someone sends in his or her registration for FISM 2012 and has it returned, or repeatedly ignored, we cannot say that anyone is being banned with certainty.

Within the next hour, I'll be posting my interview with Eric Eswin, the International President of FISM. In this conversation, we discuss his vision for the future of FISM, recent controversies connected to FISM 2009 in Beijing and the issue of "Blacklists" and "Banning" as connected to the Blackpool Magic Convention and FISM 2012 in in the same cityl.

[Magic Newswire]

I've just posted posted my interview with Eric Eswin in which we discuss the long term goals of FISM, the most recent World Championship of Magic in Beijing and the various controversies connected to the announcement of Blackpool as the host city for the 2012 convention. LISTEN TO OUR INTERVIEW HERE

[Roger M.]

Eswin sounds like a politician, which isn't surprising for a President of an international society.

Unfortunately, he doesn't strongly enough denounce the methods of Blackpool and Lever, and leaves too large a gap in his statements.

Eswin should be denouncing bannings outright, and instead he's trying to advance theories as to when they might be "OK".

Craig is a reporter, nothing more, nothing less.
Any efforts to stifle his reporting should be met with outright and absolute scorn.
If folks disagree with his reporting, that's fine, and they're free to offer a rebuttal.

But that's the line, we welcome rebuttal, but refuse to accept censorship achieved by banning the reporter from reporting on the event.

Magicians need to make that very clear to FISM.

Generally, I despise the type of behavior and the type of people behind the Blackpool Convention's methodology, and find them both personally and professionally disgusting.
If Eswin lets this childish gang of thugs transfer this type of thinking to FISM, it would reflect directly on him, and would be a shame.

[Tom Stone]

Unfortunately, he doesn't strongly enough denounce the methods of Blackpool and Lever

Still, I thought it sounded promising that he would look into the matter. At this point, I see no reason to doubt that he will do exactly that.
Instead of emotional opinions, I think it is better to post solid facts, dates, names... as that would give Eswin a better picture of the situation, should he examine this thread. Too much emotion, and the topic will derail.

Btw - I noticed that Craig has redirected the www.fism2012.org site so that it now points at the official fism.org site. A sign of good will.

[Kenardo]

The problem is that no other country offered to host the next FISM.

The question is under what circumstances should a hosting country's banning policy force FISM to actively search for a new hosting venue.

[Magic Newswire]

If you listen to the chat.. they can still not accept a bid and the Pres. will then look for alternate sites and solicit their bids. In this case, they all agreed that Blackpool was a good site for the 2012 championships by a majority vote.

[CraigMitchell]

A big kudos to Dodd Vickers for another great interview.

I have full confidence that Eric Eswin will indeed ensure that fairness prevails and preserve FISM's integrity in this matter as a truly global organisation bringing together what is so good in magic.

He has already stated that the "Ban" list from Blackpool shouldn't carry over to FISM ... and more importantly a mere difference of opinion or a dislike for what someone said does by no means qualify.

If Mr Lever does now confirm that no one is banned from FISM - it does beg the question as to why one registrant was explicitly told that he needed permission to attend FISM and that the Blackpool Committee will decide whether he was eligible for a FISM ticket. I hope that this determination regarding admission is not being made behind closed doors ? In this instance, a delegate is singled out for 'review' based ostensibly as a result of private disputes between Mr Lever / the BMC and the registrant ( in this case the registrant being involved with a competing convention )

Imagine that - competing magic conventions !

[Tim Ellis]

"Competing convention"?

Is it on at the same time as Blackpool? How is it "competing"?

[CraigMitchell]

This 'competing convention' was 3 weeks prior and at the opposite end of the country.

[Q. Kumber]

It's now starting to look like to me this was a well-planned strategy by Craig Mitchell, possibly in cahoots with Carl de Rome, to see if he could get himself banned from Blackpool.

Quentin, I can not quite follow the logic in this theory. I'd be grateful if you could explain it more clearly.

Had the chronology been reversed, I certainly would see your point.
That is, if it had started with Craig's "sledgehammer" style, and that he then got banned.
But, to me, it seems like it is the opposite - the ban came first, and the "sledgehammer" protests came afterwards.

If I have misunderstood anything, please correct me.

It started with this http://www.linkingpage.com/magicnewsfee ... chell.html

I seem to remember the same article appearing here on the Genii forum (see the reference to Richard in it).

No one has given a reasonable explanation as to why anyone would post such a condemnation of a place and then still want to go back there. Like dumping on your neighbour's doorstep, yet insisting on being invited to the party.

If someone wrote such a piece about where you were running your convention, would you want them as a delegate?

[Roger M.]

Yes I'd want them as a delegate, but then I'm not a petty, childish thug trying to show folks who's the boss.

[Tom Stone]

If someone wrote such a piece about where you were running your convention, would you want them as a delegate?

The link you provided are broken, but I found the text you refered to. Sure, some passages in Craig's text are perhaps unnecessary caustic, but it's still just words and opinions, not worse than some of Genii's book reviews. I don't know why Craig want to go there, but a convention is not just a convention, but a social gathering as well. A place to talk with friends you seldom have the opportunity to meet, and that aspect is independent of the quality of the convention itself.

If someone wrote something like that about something I arranged, I would still gladly take their money - especially if I knew that I could prove them wrong. But that's me.

And the theory that Craig and Carl de Rome are in cahoots?

[Tim Ellis]

At the General Assembly where Blackpool won the bid to host FISM there were only 4 votes against them. Derek Lever said he would go out of his way to turn the "no" votes into "yes".

Banning someone who criticises a convention won't turn them into a supporter.

[mrgoat]

No one has given a reasonable explanation as to why anyone would post such a condemnation of a place and then still want to go back there. Like dumping on your neighbour's doorstep, yet insisting on being invited to the party.

Mr Reynolds.

I think three people in fact gave you an explanation:

He loves magic and will tolerate the [censored] of Blackpoo to see world class magic.

On top of that, he is a REPORTER and needs to attend in order to REPORT.

Do you think censoring the press is a good idea? A one word "yes" or "no" will suffice.

[Matt Sedlak]

Goat why do you seemingly always try to politicize these threads and turn them into off-topic debates? Even though I tend to agree with you on things I rarely agree with the way you say them.

"Do you think censoring the press is a good idea? A one word "yes" or "no" will suffice."

Answering this question is both impossible and irrelevant. Regardless of how one feels about the press this is not so much an issue regarding that but more of refusing to do business with someone. If a shopkeeper refuses to do business with a person that is their right, even if they have no reason. So that Craig is banned from Blackpool I have no issue with. The problem is that the Blackpool folks are now working under the banner of FISM who probably doesn't want to be associated with this kind of behavior.

On top of that the question you ask can't be given a one word answer. Many people have reservations about the press today and the incredible power and influence it has, especially as it becomes more and more partisan. Not all questions are cut and dry in the sense that if I say yes it makes me sound like a fascist and if I say no it makes it seem like I don't feel the above mentioned problems are serious (which I do). Of course you already know all this.

Anyway I'm not trying to derail the thread any further but I am interested in how this plays out. I never really considered going overseas for a magic convention but since it is very likely I will be living in Europe in 2012 I was considering looking into FISM. But if this is the way it will be run I would rather not give them any money.

[John McDonald]

Craig,

I am sorry that this has happened to you.
However, I do find your posts here and elsewhere dispiriting and disingenuous.

You are entitled to your views and you have expressed them candidly. That is your democratic right.

You wish FISM was not at Blackpool in 2012. Fair enough. Who decided it would be?

The FISM council, they could have rejected the bid but didn't. The majority voted in favour, this not being the first time that this has happened as Eric Eswin has made clear.
That is democracy. A democratic vote chose Blackpool.

There are lots of positives about Blackpool being the Host and Eric Eswin has stated that himself.

Now, what have you done positively to ensure FISM in Blackpool in 2012 goes well?

Nothing, you have just trash talked Blackpool, set up websites that disparage and condemn and made comments that would have offended the 143,000 people who live there. I notice that you have started to delete these now, "Blackpoo.com" being one of them, "Fism2012" being another. Someone setting up fake twiter accounts etc...etc.....

However, you seem not to feel responsible for any of your comments or actions. You feel entilted under "freedom of speech" to say what the heck you want and when you upset the organizers you cry victim. Shame on them? What?

You feel that your "honesty" is acceptable. You are only giving your opinion. What a world it would be if we could all make negative comments without taking any responsibility? I don't want to live in a world like that and I bet you don't either.

Lets follow your logic. You invite me to your house. Whilst there I say, "I don't like your curtains, nor your kitchen. I don't like the people who come here. It smells funny too." I can't be surprised if you don't allow me back or make me welcome? Surely?

You do not seem to realize that Honesty without responsibility is just plain rudeness. You must see that.

Blackpool Magicians Club hold a convention. You have been banned from what i can make out as your published reports that negate the city of Blackpool and make fun of the hotels the facilities and the BMC convention organizers as well as the convention. It is the right of the BMC to admit who it wants. (However, personally I wouldn't have banned you)

You have not been banned from FISM and I doubt very much whether you will be, or could be.

Now please stop crying foul, take some responsibility for your comments, recognize that there are pros and cons to everything including the choice of Blackpool and accept that brutal honesty can at times be just brutal. If you had sought to be unbiased in your your view of Blackpool you may not have found yourself in this position

Eric Eswin has said that it is really sad that the Convention is still years away and has been talked down already. As I stated earlier I am sorry that you are in this position.