Banned from Blackpool for my "Safety"

[Tim Ellis]

And the Blackpool Gazette brings us Part 3 of the Daniels saga http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/black ... 5705069.jp

[Ian Kendall]

That's the same Darren Day who walked out on his newborn son saying 'I don't do family'...

http://showbiz.sky.com/Darren-Day-I-Dont-Do-Family

Take care, Ian

[mrgoat]

That's the same Darren Day who walked out on his newborn son saying 'I don't do family'...

http://showbiz.sky.com/Darren-Day-I-Dont-Do-Family

Take care, Ian

Yeah, but he did get to play with Anna Friel's rude bit. I am jealous of that.

[Tim Ellis]

There seem to be a lot of UK celebrities getting involved in FISM 2012.. ;)

Darren Day is a fascinating character http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Day

[CraigMitchell]

One of Paul Daniels' booking agents posted this cryptic message on another forum:

"I hear whispers......Eric Eswin is now been made aware now of Levers antics........will FISM care?

outcomes...
1. Lever gets the boot (!)
2. Fism is moved (!)
3 Nothing happens (!)

I would vote for outcome......."

How strange.

[Francesca Moffet]

Darren Day certainly isn't what I would call a 'star'. Far from it.

[Tim Ellis]

Hes just a C-list celebrity and wont be invited."

[CraigMitchell]

Things get even better.

If you wish to enter the imaginary "FISM World Championships for Childrens Entertainers" ( in case you are just joining us - this is the contest which Derek Lever dreamed up without the knowledge or approval of the FISM General Assembly ... who would possibly need their approval ? Those pesky statutes just get in the way ) Derek Lever decides who enters & who doesn't.

A "FISM World Championships" that Derek decides the contestants ?

Wow ... they certainly do things differently in Blackpool.

[danata]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all the Blackpool Magic Convention Competitions in the past have been by "Invitation" so maybe this will be the way with FISM as well, now that it is going to be in Blackpool...............

Mike Danata

[David Alexander]

Ah, the marketing possibilities...


I can see the ads now: World Champion of Magic - Lance Burton at the Monte Carlo - ten year contract - $110 million.

World Champion Childrens Entertainer at your child's birthday party: $150.

Just kind of takes your breath away...

[Master Payne]

I think everyone who decides to go to this Convention should register under the name Paul Daniels.

That would make it a sure fire Electric Hair Raising event!

[Brad Henderson]

I have never been to a FISM (interferes with my performance schedule) and have no feelings one way or the other toward Blackpool. Having read this thread, I ask myself, at this point, is FISM Blackpool salvageable?

It seems to me that this situation cannot result in a positive outcome. With the expectations, scrutiny, and animosity I don't know if any organization could pull off what will be remembered as a positive event.

It would have to be a flawless production - and given the concerns about the town, and with the antagonism from other parties - I don't know if it would be possible at this point to control all the pieces needed to make this a flawless production.

I fear FISM may be in a loose/loose situation.

[Tim Ellis]

Just visited the Magic Woods forum and saw a banner ad for FISM Beijing... sounds good! ;)

[Dave V]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all the Blackpool Magic Convention Competitions in the past have been by "Invitation" so maybe this will be the way with FISM as well, now that it is going to be in Blackpool...............

Mike Danata

I can't imagine two distinctly separate organizations doing such a thing. As far as I'm concerned, the only connection FISM has to the Blackpool Convention is that both are being held in the same city. One should have NO influence over the operation of the other, although this thread indicates that's not the case, and that's not good for anyone involved.

[Tim Ellis]

And the PR machine for Blackpool FISM 2012 just keeps on going with this piece in the Mirror.co.uk

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists ... -21731806/

"I've never really got magic. I've often wanted to saw an assistant in half (especially in River Island) but a conman pretending he's doing it to his rictus-grinning wife on stage doesn't grab me.

But I'm changing my mind after Blackpool's Magicians' Club banned Paul Daniels from the town because: "He's a has-been. We don't want him. He's done the same electric hair routine for 40 years."

Now that, my friends, is magic."

[Tim Ellis]

And in yet another piece here, http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/black ... 5689564.jp

a tourism guru responds to Paul Daniels claims by making the suggestion to Blackpool council that they reduce the size of their "Illuminations" in order to increase the quality.

"The Illuminations is stretched over five miles delivering mediocre stuff over a wide area. But if you focused it over two miles there is potential for getting much better value for money.

"You could give the display much greater impact and you would be supporting the Tower, the Pleasure Beach and the piers, and the main part of the Promenade. You could put more resources towards enticing people out of their cars."

Blackpool Council responded:


Coun Maxine Callow, cabinet member for tourism and regeneration at Blackpool Council, said: "I have never heard anything as ridiculous in all my life.

"Would Mr Etches like to explain to those hotels and traders outside the two miles he proposes, when there are no longer any Illuminations outside their businesses?

"It would send out completely the wrong message if we were to reduce the Illuminations. We want people to get as far as Red Bank Road and feel they have had good value and will contribute to the Illuminations fund."

Peter Taylor, secretary of hoteliers group StayBlackpool added: "Reducing the Illuminations show is a ludicrous idea, which I hope will be dismissed outright.

"The Illuminations is famous for being the biggest free light show on earth and if we lost this title its popularity would no doubt be damaged. Blackpool is enjoying its best season in years, we should be looking for ways to improve our light show not reduce it."

[Tim Ellis]

The Magic Bunny forum has deleted it's thread on the Blackpool banning Paul Daniels topic and replaced it with one headed "What positive things can we say about FISM coming to the UK?".

Reasons stated by the site owner:

"I am aware that one recent particular thread in this forum has become a prolonged and vindictive attack on one named specific individual someone who is well known and holds high rank in the magic community but someone who is not a member of this site.

Although I do not wish to lend support to the actions of this individual in the petty banning and unbanning of a number of different magicians from major national conventions, I cannot allow this site to be used to publicly attack someone in the manner that has been done here nor can I allow the principle of free speech to be abused in this way.

Although I am happy for members to discuss the FISM and the policy of banning (and unbanning) various magicians, I cannot allow the discussion to degrade into a hateful attack on any named individual. Please respect my wishes in this matter."

[CraigMitchell]

What is fascinating about the censorship of the thread on The Magic Bunny - is that rather than just 'edit' or remove the offending post ( which they had been doing previously as a good moderator should in order to ensure open discussion ) they erased ALL discussion on the matter as if it never happened ... which I am sure is exactly what Mr Lever was hoping for. In fact - nearly every discussion concerning the issue of bannings / FISM / Blackpool on The Magic Bunny website tends to get removed or shut down.

Lest we forget - Mr Lever attempted to have Dodd Vickers censor his Magic Newswire website because he did not agree with the contents ... so it seems to be a developing trend.

The mention of his 'high rank' may explain his militant outlook to magic ;-)

[Richard Kaufman]

I guess Mr. Magic Bunny really wants to go to Blackpool. :)

[David Alexander]

Mr. Magic Bunny works next to Winston Smith in the Ministry of Truth.

[Michael Jay]

Mr. Magic Bunny, or Nigel Shelton the site owner, did not delete the thread as is being mistakenly stated above. Just as with the thread on Magic Bunny, it would do everyone well to get their facts straight before they just go in with guns blazing.

In the thread that was removed from the main forums, there was a great deal of unsubstansiated accusations that were on the edge of libel, if not specifically libel in and of themselves.

Let me quote a forum member, who expresses himself much better than I can:

"Free speech is the freedom of an individual to say or write what they wish and take the consequences. When those views are published, however (and here, Magic Bunny is the medium of publication just as a newspaper or magazine would be such a medium in print), then the publisher takes the responsibility in addition to the writer. What may have started as an individual's 'free speech' may now be regarded as libel or defamation of character (or, frankly, just not the sort of thing that the publisher wishes to see in his pages). That is why newspapers absolutely do not allow their writers freedom to say whatever they wish to say. Every newspaper refuses to publish certain items, cuts certain passages and edits the original phrasing of some articles. Occasionally some publications omit to do so, are taken to court and may eventually be closed down.

"So the plain fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as 'free speech' in the sense that 'you can say or write whatever you want to without any restriction'. Every responsible publication platform (both on the web and in print) imposes limits on what may or may not be said by its contributors."

If the Genii forum wishes to allow this gasoline to be thrown on the fire, then more power to them. At Magic Bunny, we require a higher standard. Sorry if that offends.

Mike.

[CraigMitchell]

Mike - the question thus remains ... why not delete or just edit the offending posts ( as you have suggested publishers should do ) rather than delete the entire thread which consisted of some 6 pages in which there was indeed legitimate discussion.

The thread had in fact been active for a good period of time ( I must thus assume that the moderators were happy with the discussion ) and then suddenly the *entire* thread is removed because it is now considered 'libellous'

Included in that thread was also Tony Galvin's first hand account of his unlawful detention at Blackpool after being accused of being a thief by the organiser.

The reasoning for the full deletion doesn't unfortunately appear sound.

Can you find out whether any correspondence was received from Mr Lever requesting or demanding the deletion of the thread ? If this was the case - the sudden deletion could be better explained.

[Michael Jay]

I am the site director at Magic Bunny. There was no communication between Lever and our site.

If you read what the site owner stated on the thread that explaines the situation, then you know that we are not stopping discussion on the topic:

"Although I am happy for members to discuss the FISM and the policy of banning (and unbanning) various magicians, I cannot allow the discussion to degrade into a hateful attack on any named individual."

The thread that was removed became a vicious and libelous attack against Derek Lever. An immediate stop was put to it.

Could it have been handled differently? Maybe. Still, it is what it is.

Please, though, if you wish to indict our forums as being someone's lapdog, get your facts straight.

Thank you.

Michael Jay
Director
Magic Bunny

[opie]

Be careful how you talk to Michael Jay, or you might get banned from the Magic Bunny forever....(sigh).....opie

[Michael Jay]

:tired:

This is just silly.

[Jonathan Townsend]

:tired:

This is just silly.

that's "loose/loose" or Lose and FAIL

[Michael Jay]

You will please pardon my ignorance, Mr. Townsend, but I honestly don't understand what you mean.

It is tiresome that I must now feel the need to get into personal histories with Opie here on these forums to defend my point of view on a completely unrelated topic. Opie's ban from the MB forum has nothing to do with this topic and his history on our forums dictates as to why he was banned.

Please accept the fact that his ban had nothing to do with me, but rather his constant attacks against another member of those forums, who is also banned because of equal vitriol and poor manners.

I'm sorry, but all the members here can believe anything that they please. I've had my say and I'm sorry that it has gone on this long.

I shall not bore your folks anymore and allow you to draw your own conclusions in all of this, for right or wrong.

Peace.

Mike.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Personal invective ... IMHO unseemly and reflects on those who offer such.

Censorship where it affects the record of an issue or its resolution doubleplus ungood IMHO.

Loose with the public record -> lose with the public trust (FAIL)

I wish both FISM and the Blackpool magic environment the best and would like to find that things have been settled productively.

[opie]

Sensitivities did get severe when my old buddy from Canada, who shall remain nameless on this post, used to get crosswise with me. Some folks just don't understand humor. Folks who comment on my bunny lapel pin do not know that it is not a magician symbol; it is actually a combat campaign medal...haha

Please accept my apology, if I nudged anybody's sensitivity...and for leaning slightly off topic....

I love this thread.....

opie

[mrgoat]

Be careful how you talk to Michael Jay, or you might get banned from the Magic Bunny forever....(sigh).....opie

I've been banned 6 or maybe 7 times forever from there.

I've stopped trolling them now. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

[Tim Ellis]

Michael Jay said "Mr. Magic Bunny, or Nigel Shelton the site owner, did not delete the thread as is being mistakenly stated above. Just as with the thread on Magic Bunny, it would do everyone well to get their facts straight before they just go in with guns blazing.

In the thread that was removed from the main forums, there was a great deal of unsubstansiated accusations that were on the edge of libel, if not specifically libel in and of themselves."


So the thread was not "deleted" it was "removed"... isn't that the same thing?

[mrgoat]

If the Genii forum wishes to allow this gasoline to be thrown on the fire, then more power to them. At Magic Bunny, we require a higher standard.

This entire Derek Lever Debacle is most, most amusing.

And now it escalates to inter-forum battles with the brave Mr Jay attending this forum and berating us for not having the high standards he demands over at Shelton Towers.

Very amusing.

[Q. Kumber]

I have never been to a FISM (interferes with my performance schedule) and have no feelings one way or the other toward Blackpool. Having read this thread, I ask myself, at this point, is FISM Blackpool salvageable?

It seems to me that this situation cannot result in a positive outcome. With the expectations, scrutiny, and animosity I don't know if any organization could pull off what will be remembered as a positive event.

It would have to be a flawless production - and given the concerns about the town, and with the antagonism from other parties - I don't know if it would be possible at this point to control all the pieces needed to make this a flawless production.

I fear FISM may be in a loose/loose situation.

Brad, On the face of it your concerns seem valid but for a number of reasons, I don't think your conclusion is correct.

When reading this thread (or any other on the magic internet) an automatic assumption is that everyone, or at least a high percentage of people in magic are aware of it. And mostly through the efforts of two people, this topic has been and is being aired on many magic internet forums.

I've asked a lot of magicians both here in England and abroad what they thought of the topic. Most of them are totally unaware of it.

Of those who are aware of it, half had come to pretty much the same conclusion that I have done. That the two people fanning the flames - each with the perceived intention of acting in FISM's best interests and keeping people informed of the "loose cannon" Derek Lever - have each their own personal agenda.

When people start to realise what's going on, the posters begin to lose credibility. It's like the bore at your local club who always has a pet grievance to air. He might even be perfectly right but after a while the reaction is, "Oh, he's off again," and he gets ignored.

Every year 3,000+ people come to the Blackpool convention. Because they know they have a helluva good time. And regardless of where you sit in the Opera House Theatre you have a full and unrestricted view of the stage.

All of these 3,000 people know exactly what the town is like. They really don't care. They keep coming back. There is a long waiting list of dealers vying to have a stall.

It's exactly the opposite of Yogi Bearra's quote, "If they don't want to come there's nothing going to keep them from not coming."

"If they want to come, all the bleatings of the begrudgers will not keep them from coming."

Every three years a different club organises FISM. I suspect that most of them do not have any prior experience of hosting such a large convention. Yet overall they do a terrific job. Doesn't it stand to reason that in 2012, Blackpool, who have years of experience of hosting a major convention, will be well able to add at least a little bit extra than the norm?

The Blackpool committee are only too well aware that FISM has a totally different feel, style and ambiance than their annual Convention.

Yes, there will be those who will go to FISM 2012 for the sole purpose of finding things to criticise. And we already know who they are.

The registrants for FISM 2012 aren't going for the sightseeing, they are going for the magic. Even if Derek Lever were the arsehole that the majority of posters on here are trying to make out, his track record (doubling the attendance since taking over from previous organisers Tom Owen and Bill Lamb, and extending it from one day to almost three full days)shows he delivers year after year. And that's not just my view, it is the view of 3,000 other magicians.

So Brad, in my opinion, the bottom line for 99% of all potential registrants for FISM 2012 is not whether Paul Daniels thinks Blackpool is a dump, or whether there will be a section for kidshow magicians or how far is the nearest four star hotel but will they have a hell of a good time magically.

[Richard Kaufman]

Quentin has many good points, but the larger question is why would people who pays less than $100 for registration at a normal Blackpool convention pay over $600 for registration to FISM (after just having come to Blackpool less than six months earlier!) when the line-up in talent will probably be on par with what is usually at the Blackpool convention? So they can see better at the close-up? Because there's a contest?

Quentin's view seems to be that because Derek Lever runs a yearly convention he's a better choice to run a FISM that most other past FISM hosts, because they've never run a convention before. But suppose exactly the opposite is true ...

[JanCulshaw]

Storm in a teacup, anyone? What a lot of nonsense is being spouted about this.

Paul Daniels. A very pleasant and generous professional, ironically I first met him at a Blackpool Convention the year he was given the Murray award.

Derek Lever cannot stand PD - Why? Simple professional jealousy.

Blackpool. It's a dump, and has been for years.

Effect all this will have on attendance at FISM 2012? None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Niente. Zero. They'll still sell every available ticket.

[Richard Kaufman]

One of the reasons there are so many dealers fighting over the tables at a Blackpool convention is because the conventioneers spend so freely. Why do they spend so much? Because the convention costs so little (registration, crap hotels, cheap flights in the winter, or driving, or taking the train).

Now imagine those same two rooms full of 150 dealers (or however many it is) when the conventioneers have paid five times the Blackpool registration fee, at least double for their airline tickets (because it's high season), and more for their hotels. Conventioneers will deduct all of that extra expense from the money they will have to potentially spend in the dealers room.

Here's where you can clearly see the psychology of why having FISM in Blackpool may backfire completely--because it will inevitably be compared to the normal Blackpool convention with all of its attendant expenses.

In having two enormous conventions in Blackpool within six months of one another, which one will suffer: the expensive one or the cheap one? Is FISM going to draw an entirely different group of people than normally attend Blackpool, or will most folks simply skip the normal Blackpool convention that year?

[opie]

If you really want to attend a convention, where every magician is considered important and a guest of TEXAS, sign up for TAOM 2010 NOW, because more than half the registrations have been sold and no more than 500 registrations will be sold...(There were more magicians than that at the TAOM 2009 TAOM in Houston...

Your reservation is a seat at Austin City Limits studio.....)

http://www.taom.org/cms/

Hey, we do it right in Texas.....Check out Southwest Airlines fares and ninety-nine dollar rooms.....Do that every year, between now and FISM Blackpool, and you can count the savings in Margarittas....tsk tsk...Texas!!!! Whoa!!!!

opie

[CraigMitchell]

Hi Quentin

You raise some very good points but no where do I see your view on whether you agree with the conduct of the organiser.

What I continue to see coming out of the UK ( not you specifically ) is a general belief that because someone holds a "high rank" or in our little world organises a convention annually - is beyond reproach ... or "so long as it doesn't impact my life, I don't really care" ...

[Q. Kumber]

Quentin's view seems to be that because Derek Lever runs a yearly convention he's a better choice to run a FISM that most other past FISM hosts, because they've never run a convention before. But suppose exactly the opposite is true ...

My point was that because Blackpool have certain structures already in place they don't have to spend the same amount of time sorting them out and can use the same time and energy focusing on making a better overall experience.

As for Blackpool and FISM being in the same town within six months of each other. I have no idea whether either will suffer. However if one did I would guess the February one, as I believe FISM 2012 will attract a lot of people who have never been to a FISM and will probably never go to another, and given the choice between the two they will save for the "once in a lifetime".

Regarding the Lever/Daniels business. I think Paul was silly to post it and Derek was just as silly to respond. But the more interesting question is, "Does anyone really think The Stage newspaper trawls through the Genii forum or were they tipped off and if so by whom?"

[mrgoat]

Quentin's view seems to be that because Derek Lever runs a yearly convention he's a better choice to run a FISM that most other past FISM hosts, because they've never run a convention before. But suppose exactly the opposite is true ...

My point was that because Blackpool have certain structures already in place they don't have to spend the same amount of time sorting them out and can use the same time and energy focusing on making a better overall experience.

Sorry, lost me here.

What structures does Blackpool have in place that other places don't that will allow Lever to spend time making more money? Sorry, I mean making the experience better.