Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

[Richard Kaufman]

I would call it Judgment Day--when the machines take over. It already happened and no one noticed.

[Matt Sedlak]

Goat & Matt -

One moment, you're arguing that piracy is unstoppable - the implication being that pirates are offering their rabid "customers" something of significant value. The next minute, you're intimating that commercial damage is unproven - and by extension that this value is minimal. WELL, WHICH IS IT? You can't have your cake and eat it too - unless self-delusion strikes your fancy.

Take one look at the music industry and you have your answer. This isn't rocket science, yet explaining it to you feels like teaching calculus to kindergartners.

John

Although me and mrgoat do seem to agree on our fundamental point (that piracy is here to stay) I don't think I ever said that piracy doesn't cost people money although goat has mentioned the possibility. In this case you are trying to teach calculus to someone who already knows it very well! As I said before, feel free to disagree with me but make sure you are actually arguing against a point I have made and not something you put in my mouth.

Regarding the actual issue I don't have an opinion on it. Both sides make compelling arguements and both sides can toss numbers and statistics back at you. Both sides are heavily biased so taking anything they say blindly as fact is a bit foolish. It is possible that it costs the producers very little in the end and it is possible that it costs them a ton.

Finally I don't think that saying piracy is unstoppable and that the commercial damage is minimal are contradictory. What I think mrgoat is saying (and he can correct me if I am wrong) is that in most cases the people who pirate something wouldn't have bought the product anyway, even if it wasn't available for a free download. I think this almost certainly has to have some ring of truth to it if only due to sheer magnitude. If you downloaded all of the DVDs that were mentioned at the top of this thread, about 220 if I recall, then it would cost over $6500 to purchase them all, if you could find them. Some people love to collect and buy everything in sight but I don't know too many people who would buy that many magic DVDs. And that is probably only a small number of those available out there. So I think it is safe to assume that many of those may be downloaded by people who wouldn't have bought the original anyway. Before people jump down my throat on this I am not saying it is a justification or anything but just one can see how this line of reasoning could be following to end up at what mrgoat has been saying.

[Dave V]

They may not buy it, but these people or their friends, or their friend's friends may someday be in your audience. You'll know who they are. They'll the ones loudly bragging to their friends "I know how he did that..."

[Dave V]

When publishing a book or DVD - are there business reasons to get as much sold as quickly as possible?

I would think it has a lot to do with what we're talking about. Even manufacturers have to contend with that. I talked to James Clark of Black's Magic about this. According to him, he put out a bunch of cash having molds made in all the sizes for his line of PK rings only to have the Chinese factory reuse the molds to make more after his contract was fulfilled and "back door" them to discount wholesalers around the world. Rather than fight a losing battle, he factored this into his business model and priced his product to recoup his expenses before the knockoffs hit the market, which they did, right on schedule. Rather than gripe about a problem he couldn't stop, he planned to have other products to hit the market when that one quit selling.

[Jonathan Townsend]

They may not buy it, but these people or their friends, or their friend's friends may someday be in your audience. You'll know who they are. They'll the ones loudly bragging to their friends "I know how he did that..."

And that sir is exactly one of the obvious reasons an open market for magic items is itself not in the interests of our craft.

"Hey isn't that just like the trick we bought Elmer and he was so happy to show his friends at school and ..."

[Dave V]

Sounds like we're stuck in a "Catch 22"

[Jonathan Townsend]

Sounds like we're stuck in a "Catch 22"

No Dave, only those who can't let go of what is obviously not real.

When you find a contradiction - look for two parties who both profit from those who need not to escape. Then, if you are an adult, you might need to make a choice regarding what to condone, what to become complicit about and just how much hypocrisy you can rationalize to yourself.

BTW, if you did read the book, look for the answers that evolved by the time the next generation faced the dilemma. Fragged if you do eh?

[Matt Sedlak]

Wait.....huh?

How did we get to exposure from illegally trading DVDs? I really don't see the connection. I suppose there might be one or two people who, while trying to find a secret, end up downloading a non-Ellusionist DVD and if they aren't utterly confused from the beginning they probably end up becoming magicians. Seriously though, the exposure-type videos and the explanation for magicians videos are very different. People who are just looking for a secret want to see how the lady is sawed in half. They don't want to see, "Well do an Elmsley Count here, followed by a Gemini Count, then a double lift, finally a Zarrow shuffle." Those that do end up having an interest in the more technical details don't have to look far anyway in order to find it. I don't think that the illegal filesharing of magic books and DVDs (which most laymen have no clue about) amounts to much, if any, exposure.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Wait.....huh?

How did we get to exposure from illegally trading DVDs? I really don't see the connection. ...

Yeah, since when is it illegal to trade DVDs?

[Dave V]

I think the connection is that the end result of DVD uploads is exposure. Material being exposed to people who have no legal right to it. I think you're right though. If the "secret seekers" see a dry description of "do an Elmsley..." they'll probably seek their entertainment elsewhere. Maybe that's part of the solution? Take away the entertainment portion of the DVDs and turn them into "textbooks" of instructions.

And, no it's not illegal to trade DVDs. However, it is illegal to trade *copies* of those DVDs.

[Richard Kaufman]

I don't think exposure factors into this very much. Sure, there are some numbnuts putting stuff up on YouTube, but those are not illegal copies (because YouTube takes down illegal copies), just kids messing around. The exposure part is the least of it.

[Matt Sedlak]

Sorry...I was speaking in shorthand since I figured it would be obvious from the discussion what I meant and since I later said "the illegal filesharing of magic books and DVDs" but yes, I meant illegally trading copies of DVDs. Sorry for the confusion that I didn't cause.

[Cain]

Another thing: The argument (in the U.S.) justifying copyright is utilitarian: "to promote the progress of the arts and sciences." You write a novel, make a film, produce a melody, and the government grants you a temporary(!) monopoly in order to incentivize the production of more novels, films, and melodies.

It's rather difficult to make this argument in the domain of magic because how many people not named Jay Sankey make their living creating material for this community? If you're a professional magician, then presumably you produce a DVD or book based on the magic you created to perform for paying audiences. If you're a hobbyist, then your reasons for creating and performing are probably not financial. Now, it could be argued that a hobbyist or professional would lose the incentive to publish material they create. And what's wrong with that? Keep secrets secret.

[mrgoat]

Goat & Matt -

One moment, you're arguing that piracy is unstoppable The next minute, you're intimating that commercial damage is unproven You can't have your cake and eat it too - unless self-delusion strikes your fancy.

I fail to see how those things are contradictory at all.

Treat me like an idiot for a second and explain in layman's terms why something that is unstoppable needs to have proven commercial damage...

I fail to see the point you are making.

a) Piracy is unstoppable. Yes. Obviously.

b) Piracy has an unknown monetary effect (as it's immeasurable due to a lack of data) and anti-piracy people are quoting guesses said off the record as fact. Yes. Obviously.

Sorry, don't really see why this annoyed you enough to be quite as patronising as you were. Could you walk me through why these two points are even related, let alone contradictory. It'd be appreciated.

[mrgoat]

Mr Goat "I am just trying to politely point out that the time and energy they waste moaning about piracy and sending DCMA notices could be better spent trying to work out ways to make their content undownloadable."

You've already argued that there is no way of stopping piracy, yet you think we should come up with different ways of downloading our product?

Why?

Yes, because what we are currently offering isn't what consumers seem to want.

If you cast your mind back, the music industry was up in arms about Napster and other file sharing. Then, they offered individual tracks priced suitably and lo! legal digital sales went through the roof.

Now you are up in arms about piracy, yet are still offering only the old fashioned 'album' the music industry was.

I also have been suggesting that material is made 'undownloadable'.

Offer something that is impossible to digitise and share.

As soon as one pirate buys our content, they'll simply crack it and upload it to sharers.

Why spend the time, money and effort coming up with new ways if the future is ruled by pirates?

Because it worked for the music industry beautifully. Maybe it would work for us too.

My point is to try to change their attitudes - try to recreate the "old school" respect.

And you *honestly* think that the folk you PM having a pop at them will not stop sharing files because one magician has told them it's bad?

I love your optimism and hope you are right.

But I guess that just shows how I'm not adapting with the changing times.

It does show that, but your very aggressive tone also shows that you don't even want to discuss what that actually means. Which is a shame. I mean, the minds on this board have to be about the most creative in magic. No one else seems to have offered any practical ideas on how to make a downloaded DVD not an option.

What else?

Let's think outside the box, crazy thoughts and see what happens?

a) 1 person that buys the DVD will get the author personally coming round to teach them the effects for a weekend.

b) 10 people that buy it will get an hour video tutorial from the author via skype

c) 100 people that buy it will become members of an elite list that will once a month for a year get an email with x in it

What else could we do for 1, 10 and 100 people?

[Richard Kaufman]

Cain, I guess you haven't enjoyed reading any of my books, or other magical literature, that's been published in the last 100 years.

[JHostler]

I fail to see how those things are contradictory at all.

That's because you edited out a couple of important nuances and misquoted me.

1) Go back and re-read my original post three or four times.
2) Read the following three or four times: You, like most other piracy apologists, ASSUME the material absence of sales cannibalism and CRITICIZE others for not adopting the same assumption.
3) Now re-read my original post again.

Get it???

[mrgoat]

I fail to see how those things are contradictory at all.

That's because you... misquoted me.

That's quite a serious accusation. Can you point out where I quoted something you didn't say?

[Dave V]

John,
It seems you've fallen to the mrgoat trap where he derails the subject by rewriting the question.

We all know you wrote

One moment, you're arguing that piracy is unstoppable - the implication being that pirates are offering their rabid "customers" something of significant value. The next minute, you're intimating that commercial damage is unproven - and by extension that this value is minimal. WELL, WHICH IS IT? You can't have your cake and eat it too - unless self-delusion strikes your fancy.

mrgoat conveniently quotes only

One moment, you're arguing that piracy is unstoppable[s]- the implication being that pirates are offering their rabid "customers" something of significant value. [/s] The next minute, you're intimating that commercial damage is unproven[s] - and by extension that this value is minimal.[/s]You can't have your cake and eat it too - unless self-delusion strikes your fancy.

and challenges you to point out his error.

I know you bolded some of the text for a reason, but he decided to conveniently ignore your meaning and took only part of your words. I think that qualifies as "misquoting." (meaning "to quote incorrectly")

I'd rather stick to the intended subject than succumb to his style of word games. It's a game where he thinks he wins but in truth everybody loses.

[Tim Ellis]

Mr Goat: "Offer something that is impossible to digitise and share. Because it worked for the music industry beautifully. Maybe it would work for us too."

1 - Since iTunes and other digital music stores have come onto the scene, music piracy has not stopped or even slowed down.

2 - Yes, you pay to download a song in iTunes format and it goes onto your computer where you can only upload it onto your iPod. But you can burn it onto a CD, rip the CD, and upload it back onto the net and share it with everyone. (Or are you referring to some other unpiratable system the music industry is using I'm not aware of?)


Mr Goat: "And you *honestly* think that the folk you PM having a pop at them will not stop sharing files because one magician has told them it's bad?"

Yes. Earlier this year James Clark and I targeted a pirate who was running a massive file sharing site. He was attacked by many name magicians who wrote to him explaining what he did wrong. He didn't get it. He was visited by the FBI who closed him down. He was angry. A few months later he emailed us apologising for his behaviour and he's restarted his site the RIGHT way without illegal files and torrent sharing.

It's like the campaign against drugs. Users think drugs are great and what they're doing isn't hurting anyone. But the government doesn't just throw it's arms in the air and say "This is a hopeless battle, nothing is changing!" They keep trying to re-educate the users and stop the dealers. Sure, drugs (like piracy) may now be a part of our culture that's here to stay... but we don't have to accept it and "adapt" to it.


The sad part is, that instead of getting out there with the full support of the magic community to try to stop piracy, we're stuck in here debating pedantics with other magicians.

[Dave V]

Tim,
It sounds like we both were working on targeting the same site. I got the "heads up" by a misstatement of one of our Penguin members that subsequently got him banned from the site. Following what he said, I found the site and started emailing the copyright owners as well as the site host and his ISP. The rest of your story matches what happened to that site perfectly. I never got an apology though. :(

That's why I'm anxious to get my magicpiracy.org membership approved soon so I can see what some of my other forum members are up to when they think we're not looking.

[Cain]

Cain, I guess you haven't enjoyed reading any of my books, or other magical literature, that's been published in the last 100 years.

I enjoyed Strong Magic. :) I appreciate "magical literature" (books, magazines/journals, DVDs), but I don't think we'd suffer if there was less stuff. I just think people should publish more reluctantly.

[Richard Kaufman]

Ah, a wise guy. Should've guessed.

[mrgoat]

Mr Goat: "Offer something that is impossible to digitise and share. Because it worked for the music industry beautifully. Maybe it would work for us too."

1 - Since iTunes and other digital music stores have come onto the scene, music piracy has not stopped or even slowed down.

Who said iTunes stopped piracy?

What it did do was massively increase LEGAL digital downloads. OK?

It's like the campaign against drugs. Users think drugs are great and what they're doing isn't hurting anyone. But the government doesn't just throw it's arms in the air and say "This is a hopeless battle, nothing is changing!" They keep trying to re-educate the users and stop the dealers. Sure, drugs (like piracy) may now be a part of our culture that's here to stay... but we don't have to accept it and "adapt" to it.

The War On Drugs has been a catastrophic failure that has cost the tax payer $100 billion a year. Every president since Nixon has fought a war on drugs. Every single one has failed. Legalisation would reduce drug use more than any war would. Holland proves that. Possibly not the best example to cite.

The sad part is, that instead of getting out there with the full support of the magic community to try to stop piracy, we're stuck in here debating pedantics with other magicians.

I am the (seemingly) the only person on this thread posting positive suggestions for how we can adapt. You seem to just be unable to argue the points I make and continue citing made up numbers and now the war on drugs.

Make a positive point, as I have and maybe this thread can go somewhere interesting.

[mrgoat]

I fail to see how those things are contradictory at all.

That's because you edited out a couple of important nuances and misquoted me.

1) Go back and re-read my original post three or four times.
2) Read the following three or four times: You, like most other piracy apologists, ASSUME the material absence of sales cannibalism and CRITICIZE others for not adopting the same assumption.
3) Now re-read my original post again.

Get it???

Sigh.

Now you send me Private Messages insulting the name my parents gave me and calling me "a little prick"?

Deary me. That *really* is pathetic, Sir.

It's what happens on the playground.

There's no point discussing anything with someone who cannot politely and calmly debate something, is there?

However, if you really want me to point out the futility of it all, then I shall, just to help you out.

This has clearly really annoyed you, for reasons I can't fathom. So. let's go. I'll put to one side your childish insults and try and explain things.

And you are assuming I am assuming things. I base my POV on research and facts that I link to. There is no proven cannibalization of sales due to piracy. In fact, the opposite is true and the RIAA's OWN RESEARCH shows that piracy increases sales. I have linked to this also.

What are you linking to in order to back up your claims?

I criticise people for thinking they can halt piracy and for not trying to learn from the failures of the music, software, film and tv industries. Not because they don't agree with any assumptions you accuse me of making.

And do try and remember, this is a discussion. If you make a point then use insults suitable for an 8 year old it removes weight from your points. Many of which I am sure have value, it's just hard to see beyond you calling my name "freakish" and calling me "a little prick".

By all means, take apart the research I link to. By all means, disagree with that research. By all means post other research to back up your claims. But please don't call me names. It's just, well, below you.

[mrgoat]

Another positive thing we could look at doing is 'live cam' stuff.

Now, this is taken from the adult market, but could be adapted.

In adult, when someone likes a girl, they can join her site, or steal her content. But if they REALLY like her, the one thing they can't steal is live interaction with her on webcam.

So, could magic publishers offer a once a week/month/whatever live cam show where the author is on hand to demonstrate, teach and answer questions on subtleties and finesses?

So if you buy the content legitimately, you gain access to the webchat.

[SteveP]

The sad part is, that instead of getting out there with the full support of the magic community to try to stop piracy, we're stuck in here debating pedantics with other magicians.

That's what I said on my last post!

...the one thing they can't steal is live interaction with her on webcam.

You sure can! It's very easy to capture content from a streaming webcam. A simple shareware program can do it.

[mrgoat]

...the one thing they can't steal is live interaction with her on webcam.

You sure can! It's very easy to capture content from a streaming webcam. A simple shareware program can do it.

I said INTERACTION.

You cannot capture that, with any software. It is personal, live interaction with the star of the content. Be that a pornstar or Dan and Dave.

This is why so many adult sites now offer or upsell to live services. It's the *interaction* that is what is working for adult.

Maybe it would work for us.

[Tim Ellis]

Mr Goat - Interaction in a magic tutorial or even lecture! How innovative (and out of touch) are you? Ask Hobson how that went with 'The Lecture Network'.

You may be up with your porn, but magic's not your strong point.


You stated "Who said iTunes stopped piracy? What it did do was massively increase LEGAL digital downloads. OK?"

Yes, you're right - you didn't say it stopped piracy.. exactly. You played with words again saying

"If you cast your mind back, the music industry was up in arms about Napster and other file sharing. Then, they offered individual tracks priced suitably and lo! legal digital sales went through the roof. "

You pointed out how the music industry was up in arms against file sharing - then you pointed out they started selling individual tracks and then (instead of saying "the piracy problem stopped" or "slowed down") you said that digital sales went through the roof.

You didn't address the question as to how to stop piracy.

Nor did you mention that CD sales dropped dramatically as digital sales increased... and have been on a steady decline ever since.

Yes, the customers love just buying one track at a time for $1.69 instead of a whole CD for $20.

(The musicians aren't thrilled, many I know simply don't bother recording anymore)

The only thing the customers love even more is getting one track at a time for free.



Mr Goat you seem to think the problem is that we, the magic community are not offering what the consumers want.

Really?

THEN WHY ARE THEY STEALING IT???

[mrgoat]

Mr Goat - Interaction in a magic tutorial or even lecture! How innovative (and out of touch) are you? Ask Hobson how that went with 'The Lecture Network'.

Sorry, I've never seen a DVD sold and as part of that sale you get one hour live webcam tutorial from the inventor.

Can you post a link to a product like that so I can have a look please?

You may be up with your porn, but magic's not your strong point.

That's helpful.

You stated "Who said iTunes stopped piracy? What it did do was massively increase LEGAL digital downloads. OK?"

Yes, you're right - you didn't say it stopped piracy.. exactly. You played with words again saying

How is me pointing out that I didn't say something you insinuated I said playing with words exactly? I am clearly being stupid here. You said I said something I didn't say, I corrected you, you accuse me of playing with words. Not sure what you are on about?

"If you cast your mind back, the music industry was up in arms about Napster and other file sharing. Then, they offered individual tracks priced suitably and lo! legal digital sales went through the roof. "

You pointed out how the music industry was up in arms against file sharing - then you pointed out they started selling individual tracks and then (instead of saying "the piracy problem stopped" or "slowed down") you said that digital sales went through the roof.

You didn't address the question as to how to stop piracy.

YOU CANNOT STOP PIRACY.

Sorry for the shouting, but I haven't addressed that because it IS IMPOSSIBLE TO STOP.

The music industry has failed. The software industry has failed. The movie industry has failed. The TV industry has failed.

Why on earth do you think the magic industry will succeed where these giants have all, totally and utterly failed? Please explain.

Nor did you mention that CD sales dropped dramatically as digital sales increased... and have been on a steady decline ever since.

Um, I linked to an article discussing exactly that. Did you miss it? I can repost. Let me know.

Yes, the customers love just buying one track at a time for $1.69 instead of a whole CD for $20.

Well done! You've got it!

(The musicians aren't thrilled, many I know simply don't bother recording anymore)

Citation needed. I know dozens of artists delighted with sales they get from iTunes.

The only thing the customers love even more is getting one track at a time for free.

Citation needed. Are you saying all consumers love piracy? Seems like it, and that is clearly utter nonsense.

Mr Goat you seem to think the problem is that we, the magic community are not offering what the consumers want.

Oh gosh, this is tiresome Tim. It would be much better if you went through my posts and actually quoted me, then responded to that quote. At the moment you are saying what you think I mean, and then arguing against that.

I didn't say we are not offering the magic community content they don't want. Please quote me saying that.

I said, once more for the hard of thinking, that we are not offering them the content in the way they want it.

Why should I have to buy a whole DVD to get one move/trick/routine? Why not sell that one move/trick/routine?

I said we are not selling them content they want in the WAY THEY WANT IT.

THEN WHY ARE THEY STEALING IT???

Because you are not providing it in the way they want it.

That being said, there will always be piracy. And you won't stop it.

So why not join in my posts in this thread where I suggest things that can be done instead? Why not come up with some of your own ideas.

Please, for your own sanity, accept the fact you won't stop it, and concentrate your seemingly endless energy into working out what you can do about that. How you can differentiate your product, how you can make it undownloadable, how you can offer tangible things which are undownloadable, how you can create a compelling user experience etc etc.

Be much more meaningful and interesting than you wrongly saying I said something and me pointing out how I didn't say it ad nauseum, doncha think?

Clearly, no one here thinks piracy is good. No one here condones piracy. So having pointless discussions about that will get us no where. People pirate stuff. They always have, they always will.

So, what next?

[Tim Ellis]

Goat said: "I said, once more for the hard of thinking, that we are not offering them the content in the way they want it. Why should I have to buy a whole DVD to get one move/trick/routine? Why not sell that one move/trick/routine?"


I AM offering the contents of ELLIS IN WONDERLAND on line, as downloadable files, one trick at a time on my website. (Giving the customers content the way they want it - as you say - I hope I'm quoting you correctly).

Yet this same DVD is the one offered as a torrent on Demonoid.




My point in this thread was to try to ask "Why do people think it's okay to upload DVDs?"

It would appear that the argument that we're not giving the customers content the way the want it, may not be the answer to that question.


You clearly state that piracy is unstoppable and it's here to stay.

You SEEM to be saying it's pointless trying to stop it, and instead we should find new ways to attract customers to our products... am I correct so far?

So we attract more people to our products.. but we also attract more pirates.. we work harder but do we sell more?

Plus, you seem to think it's possible to make our products "undownloadable"... somehow... which would (in essence) stop piracy... which you say can't be done.


I don't find your comments helpful at all.

[Tim Ellis]

Mr Goat - you want citations...

Look at how well the music industry has adapted to "giving the consumer what they want" As we know they've given them the ability to buy a track at a time.

And how has this worked out for them?

According to this report http://musicbizacademy.blogspot.com/200 ... round.html despite a record year of digital sales in 2008 - they made a net loss.


"For digital sales, it was the best year yet. Tracks posted a 27% gain to more than a billion units sold in 2008, and digital albums grew 32% to 65.8 million units, both new highs.

But the record highs in digital music sales didn't make up financially for the decline in PHYSICAL album sales. Combined sales of albums on CD, cassette and vinyl were down 18% from 2007. When you add in the boost from digital album sales, album sales in total were down 14%.

So while digital sales are hitting record highs in terms of "units", it's still a net loss financially."


NBC Universals Jeff Zucker sums it up nicely, calling the transition trading analog dollars for digital pennies.


That's their way of adapting and trying to work around the unstoppable pirates.


In this article from the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/ja ... sic-piracy they claim that 95% of music downloads are illegal.

They also say:

"Governments are beginning to accept that, in the debate over 'free content' and engaging internet service providers in protecting intellectual property rights, doing nothing is not an option if there is to be a future for commercial digital content."


Yes, they are trying lots of different ways to deliver content in a more appealing format - but they are losing money and piracy is increasing.

They are starting to realising the only way to stop it is to enforce the law.

If you don't mind, I think that's where I'm going to focus my endless energy - protecting intellectual property rights.

Let me know how you go with your fully interactive magic DVD project where each consumer gets a free online tutorial from you and no-one ever pirates it.

[Naphtalia]

I agree we will never stop piracy, neither do we have expectations of wiping out other crimes.

We need to have laws with teeth and then find ways to give those charged with enforcing the laws and prosecuting the criminals the ability to do so.

In my estimation, more important is to educate people about the costs and consequences of piracy. I know plenty of folks who wouldn't dare consider shoplifting a CD or even burning a copy of a friend's CD, but who will illegally download a CD.

Damian, I know you're right that we won't stop the situation. I do believe it's in our benefit to work on ways to reduce the problem.

[Bill Mullins]

1. Using the porn industry as a model for the magic industry is probably not a good thing.

2. Mrgoat continues to focus on sales, lost or otherwise. For music, porn, and other IP industries, that may be the model. For magic, however, controlling the access to secrets is of some importance, though. The copyright owner has the right to control distribution of his works. If he can increas his sales at the cost of increased piracy, that may not be in his best interest -- his goal may be minimizing piracy even at the cost of somewhat reduced sales.

At any rate, the decision is his to make. Even if digital distribution (with attendant piracy) is prove to increase sales, the magic creator still has the absolute right to control distribution, and limit it in ways that may seem short-sighted to the average porn distributor.

In other words, continuing to tell Tim Ellis he can make more money if he'd just get with Mrgoat's program may be ignoring Tim's point -- he doesn't want people sharing his stuff.

[Richard Kaufman]

Unfortunately, because the magic industry is so small compared to every other industry being discussed here, piracy (like discounting the retail price of a product--which has now become the norm and forced virtually everyone to discount in order to move product), we are hit in a much harder way by these issues. I don't see that changing.

[Jonathan Townsend]

This thread is about copyright enforcment being lax in some places on the internet.

Bill, IMHO secrecy is not so much an issue in the market for conjuring as evidenced by our open market and long history of folks taking other peoples works into print without permission.

The question Tim asked up in his original post is what motivates the sentiments he found in the reply he got from a person who put hundreds of magic items on the internet.

[mrgoat]

Goat said: "I said, once more for the hard of thinking, that we are not offering them the content in the way they want it. Why should I have to buy a whole DVD to get one move/trick/routine? Why not sell that one move/trick/routine?"


I AM offering the contents of ELLIS IN WONDERLAND on line, as downloadable files, one trick at a time on my website. (Giving the customers content the way they want it - as you say - I hope I'm quoting you correctly).

Yet this same DVD is the one offered as a torrent on Demonoid.

Oh I see why you are getting confused. You are confusing yourself with a massive aggregator of content, such as iTunes Music Store.

It's not JUST about offering individual chapters/tricks. It's about having a very simple one click system that is ingrained and has critical mass. It's about traction, it's about a tipping point.

Loads of legal digital download sites failed before iTunes got it right.

I admire you offering the tracks separately, and that is a step in the right direction. Have you got a link so I can see the site? How are you doing the credit card processing? How are you pricing it? How are you distributing it? Is it DVD quality or even HD? etc

I tried for a while on google but could only find your corporate magic site.

People could learn a thing or two from you I'm sure - if they could find your site.

My point in this thread was to try to ask "Why do people think it's okay to upload DVDs?"

It would appear that the argument that we're not giving the customers content the way the want it, may not be the answer to that question.

It is one answer.

You clearly state that piracy is unstoppable and it's here to stay.

Yes I do.

You SEEM to be saying it's pointless trying to stop it, and instead we should find new ways to attract customers to our products... am I correct so far?

No. Gosh this is tricky.

What I am saying is that you should find ways to make your product undownloadable.

Once again, although I think I've said this about 1239824 times on this thread...

You make a DVD and effectively give it away free. Then you make collector's items versions. 500 get x 100 get y 5 get z and 1 gets x+y+z AND something else.

Make the product UNPIRATEABLE by offering non-digital, non-tangible, non-shareable goods with it. Does that make sense now? This is what Trent Reznor did and made 750k in 3 days. So it works.

It is pointless. I keep asking you, and you keep ignoring, why you think you can do something that the software, games, music, TV and film industry have utterly failed to do.

So we attract more people to our products.. but we also attract more pirates.. we work harder but do we sell more?

Here you go again, arguing against something I didn't say. This is tiresome. Use the quote feature. Take the points I make, argue against them. Please stop assuming, or saying what you think I am saying. Just quote me. Make's life much easier.

Plus, you seem to think it's possible to make our products "undownloadable"... somehow... which would (in essence) stop piracy... which you say can't be done.

Tim, it seems you are being deliberately slow here.

I said to offer items with your product that are undownloadable. I can draw a picture if that will help?

I don't find your comments helpful at all.

Yet you continue to read them, and them reply to them.

Do feel free to stop doing both those things, then you can ignore how unhelpful my practical suggestions are being.

Isn't choice a wonderful thing?

[Dave V]

We still have the puzzle of "if we're not providing something of value, why are they so eager to steal it?" or put another way "If it's not what they want, why do they want it so bad?"


BTW, Penguin has offered live tutorials with at least one (maybe more) of their recent offerings. I think it was a test, and I think it went over very well. It wasn't for every purchaser, I think it was a "But wait, there's more..." sort of thing for early orders.

Sure, they can screen cap the live session as it might have limited appeal to others, but the real value is in the interaction, not just recording the download.

It may not be the full answer, but at least they're trying something.

[mrgoat]

Mr Goat - you want citations...

According to this report http://musicbizacademy.blogspot.com/200 ... round.html despite a record year of digital sales in 2008 - they made a net loss.

"For digital sales, it was the best year yet. Tracks posted a 27% gain to more than a billion units sold in 2008, and digital albums grew 32% to 65.8 million units, both new highs.

But the record highs in digital music sales didn't make up financially for the decline in PHYSICAL album sales. Combined sales of albums on CD, cassette and vinyl were down 18% from 2007. When you add in the boost from digital album sales, album sales in total were down 14%.

Um, not sure how this is helping your argument. Seems this proves that people are not buying physical CDs and vinyl, and are buying digital downloads instead. No?


In this article from the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/ja ... sic-piracy they claim that 95% of music downloads are illegal.

What's the source of the data in the article Tim?

OH! It's look! Already tackled that a while ago

http://boingboing.net/2009/06/06/bad-sc ... sus-t.html

Specifically:

"I asked what steps they took to notify journalists of their error, which exaggerated their findings by a factor of ten and were widely reported in news outlets around the world. SABIP refused to answer my questions in emails, insisted on a phone call (always a warning sign), told me that they had taken steps but wouldn't say what, explained something about how they couldn't be held responsible for lazy journalism, then, bizarrely, after ten minutes, tried to tell me retrospectively that the whole call was actually off the record, that I wasn't allowed to use the information in my piece, but that they had answered my questions, and so they didn't need to answer on the record, but I wasn't allowed to use the answers, and I couldn't say they hadn't answered, I just couldn't say what the answers were. Then the PR man from SABIP demanded that I acknowledge, in our phone call, formally, for reasons I still don't fully understand, that he had been helpful."


[quote=Tim Ellis
They also say:

"Governments are beginning to accept that, in the debate over 'free content' and engaging internet service providers in protecting intellectual property rights, doing nothing is not an option if there is to be a future for commercial digital content."[/quote]

Yup, we've also gone over this.

The *only* way to do this, is to pay the ISPs to monitor EVERY SINGLE packet of data you receive or send over the internet. For them to then reassemble any file you up or download, and to prove it was you.

But then, all THAT proves is that someone using your IP has up or downloaded that file.

This is why none of the MPAA or RIAA cases have gone to court. There is no actual proof possible.

[quote=Tim Ellis
Yes, they are trying lots of different ways to deliver content in a more appealing format - but they are losing money and piracy is increasing.[/quote]

a) They are losing money COMPARED to what they were making in a period when everyone was replacing vinyl and cassettes with CDs. Does this really seem a surprise to you.

b) Who says piracy is increasing?

They are starting to realising the only way to stop it is to enforce the law.

Who is?

[quote=Tim Ellis
If you don't mind, I think that's where I'm going to focus my endless energy - protecting intellectual property rights.[/quote]

I don't mind at all. If you think, on your own, you are mightier than the combined war chests and legal skills of the software, movie, music and TV industries combined I do nothing but salute you and wish you luck.

[quote=Tim Ellis
Let me know how you go with your fully interactive magic DVD project where each consumer gets a free online tutorial from you and no-one ever pirates it.
[/quote]

Now I'm sure you are just being deliberately difficult.

a) I didn't suggest an interactive DVD anywhere.
b) I didn't suggest every purchaser got a free online tutorial.
c) I didn't suggest no one would pirate it.

I said that if you put out a DVD and offered a SELECT number of people a live web cam where you could ask questions, jam, interact with the developer then that would be offering a tangible, non-downloadable addition to your content.

No wonder you don't find my comments helpful. You seem to not understand them. Or are deliberately not understanding them and putting words into my mouth to try and score points or something.

[mrgoat]

Damian, I know you're right that we won't stop the situation. I do believe it's in our benefit to work on ways to reduce the problem.

Absolutely, that's why I am trying to suggest that we learn from others who are succeeding in this field and throwing out practical examples, and methods that would reduce piracy.

Seems somehow this means people get awfully annoyed with me and call me a prick. Hey ho!

Pearls before swine and all that.

;)

Sorry I missed you at the castle last week! :(