The Genii Forum

Anyone who's ever table hopped at a corporate banquet has met these ladies. They weren't too bad. (In fact they were very sharp - "is that the same card?" etc) Josh handled them extremely well.

He's a terrific performer with a very natural style - and I'm a big fan.

Kathie Lee didn't do anything any ordinary spectator wouldn't do: first, she was suspicious that the dupe signed card was the same card (the Too-Perfect Theory in action?); then she saw him steal the card and add it to the top of the deck and she said something about it. It made noise, his timing was slightly off, and the card was sitting askew on top of the otherwise squared deck. He's got balls, though, because he kept going and with a limited amount of time you can't dawdle. Would it have better to do a Double Lift followed by an immediate KM Move to show that the card on top of the deck was not a dupe of his signed card?

I don't want you to think I'm busting Josh's chops, I'm just pointing out what you can see and hear in the video. And I'm not saying that I could do any better on national TV because I make no claim to being a professional performer. My hands would probably shake so much they would think I was having an attack of epilepsy. However, he did something not as well as he should have and she busted him.

He also did the more impressive trick first: the bottle production. They were more interested in that, even afterward.

Josh was great. Most importantly, he got his book seen and pushed.

The hardest people to fool are fools and these two babbling bimbos are good examples. Kathie Lee didn't see anything -- she was just guessing.

I disagree, Bob. She saw exactly what he did, when he did it.

Bob Farmer wrote:Josh was great. Most importantly, he got his book seen and pushed.

The hardest people to fool are fools and these two babbling bimbos are good examples. Kathie Lee didn't see anything -- she was just guessing.

They weren't fools, even if they may have looked like bimbos. They reacted as women sometimes do when shown magic: cynically. You can actually get a lot of comedy out of messing with women like that in shows, but you have to be careful not to make them become hostile. Then it's all over, red rover.

Don't take this the wrong way guys, but I think some of the posts here are a little over the top. (Unless the meaning of the word "bimbo" has changed drastically over the past 10 years :eek:)

Were the hosts ideal for a magic performer? No. Johnny Carson was the gold standard (for that and many other things).

But (as David and Cugel alluded to) were they all that different from a lot of people you find in the real world of performing in non-TV land? Male or female? No, I don't think so. Of course, tv made it a bigger and different kind of challenge, but nothing Josh couldn't handle.

Excuse me for over stating this, but I get the feeling just because they didn't start genuflecting and chanting "Jo-shu-a, Jo-shu-a" they're being considered less than polite. Were they genteel and completely co-operative? Well, no. Were they rude? Well, I've only watched the tape once, but I'd have to say they were fun and at least sober, which is more than some cocktail party guests are.

And I agree with Richard: KLG nailed it, but Josh handled it very well. Like many of you, I can remember the late, great Doug Henning's hands shaking on the Tonight Show, so that keeps things in perspective for me.

Just my disorganized two cents.

DD

(This and all my posts in the near future are to be read with the understanding I have 3 baby boys in diapers at home)

Josh should have pointed out in return that the makeup doesn't REALLY hide KL's wrinkles...

Jim Maloney wrote:I always have a problem with this kind of argument. While there are a number of parallels between magic and music, there's one important difference: magic, particularly close-up magic, is an interactive performance, whereas music is not.


-Jim

While this is undeniably true, I think it misses the point. It's an honor among thieves thing. Everyone on that studio stage should have one goal in mind - to give a great show. It would be rude for Joshua to comment that Kathy Lee looks a lot older in person than she does on TV (an undeniably interactive moment) just as it would be rude to create a tense performing environment for someone who is working to make you look good.

I would think (perhaps naively) that a host would be aware that their job is to make the talent look good (and vice versa). Now, if he had truly SUCKED or screwed up, that's an elephant in the room that cannot be ignored. But there are enough pressures to playing to the camera, appealing to the audience, and interacting with the hosts (on top of just doing your job) that I do not understand why someone would try and make that more difficult for the performer.

The real world is one thing. But this is not the real world. These are all professionals who should be working together to produce a quality product, no?

Brad

The one parallel in regard to music/magic and interaction, is jazz and blues. In that case you're talking interaction between the musicians.

On a related tangent, what I've never agreed with is the characterization of the analogy drawn between jazz and "jazzing" or "jazz magic". Magicians use jazz as the analogy because (they argue) it has no structure and can go anywhere - just like their magic. But this thinking is inaccurate and flawed. Except in rare (unlistenable) cases, jazz has structure. Interestingly, so too does the best improvised magic.

Sorry. Add music nerd to the list next to magic nerd.

Brad,

Good points. Particularly the "honor among thieves" line

DD

Brad is spot on - the hosts of a program are there to make the guests look good. Carson was the Gold Standard, but others did a good job as well...Dick Cavet comes to mind...another lover of good magic and an excellent host who was respectful of his guests. Steve Allen had plenty of good magic on his various shows over the years.

A gracious host would NEVER make a rude and childish comment at catching Josh's small error. Kathi's responsibility is to make certain her guests show well.

Unfortunately, her ego is far beyond her fading talent and she has to be the center of attention at all times. Josh was interfereing with that process the moment he produced the bottle.

Brad Henderson wrote:
I would think (perhaps naively) that a host would be aware that their job is to make the talent look good (and vice versa)....

[snip]

...the real world is one thing. But this is not the real world. These are all professionals who should be working together to produce a quality product, no?

Brad

I think that is naive in a sense. What you are describing is an older sensibility. It's one I find appealing and wish it would operate. But it doesn't. To expect a TV show host to think that way in the current age is out of step with the zeitgeist. In her mind she's "the star" and in the producers' minds, too. (There are exceptions but they are people of a certain age and class - like Michael Parkinson).

The show would have thought they were doing Josh a huge favor by letting him stand close to their "talent", and that the way she interacted with him is all part of her star power. They would not
have viewed it in the negative way that it has been characterized here. Indeed, they did do him a favor, from a marketing perspective.

This isn't a theater show. It's a modern TV show with all the bad behavior that is expected. (And I still don't think they were in any way bad for real world audience members).

Josh did a great job.

The hosts reacted very typically, like a lot of people do in closeup. They know the magician is out to fool them, they regard magic as something for kids, and they're not going to let this magician get the better of them. So it becomes a battle of wits as you go through the trick. You're trying to keep it on track and they're trying to knock it off the rails. You run into this all the time with adults, especially anyone successful and/or in a position of authority (salespeople, senior execs, etc.) You're entering their space, and it would be fun to mess with this guy and his little card tricks.

They also are quick to pick up on anything inconsistent. Kathy established this at the top - "You're supposed to keep the secrets, but you wrote a book?!"

Tricks that have a longer process, like the signature fusion that Josh used, are vulnerable in those conditions. You need fast, short material that doesn't telegraph where it's going. The longer process bores people who are used to chatting quickly and making a lot of jokes.

This seems to be amplified when someone's on TV; you can always sense the host thinking, "Get on with it!" And then they makes jokes or bust the performer's chops so that there is something entertaining happening. (Remember David Roth on Letterman? Same thing.)

If you're going to do closeup, you have to learn to deal with this. Otherwise you'll be eaten alive by some salesperson in front of his buddies - and he won't even work that hard to do it, the bastard.

Interesting discussion and video clip. All the more so because Josh Jay got busted and called out by Kathy Lee--something that has happened to all of us at one time or another. I understand that she should perhaps have been more polite as her role as TV host is a bit different than that of an ordinary spectator. But isn't it one of our main burdens as magicians to somehow get rid of the "challenge" aspect that is inherent in a fooling art?
It seems to me that Josh did not establish the story or emotional hook that we've all been taught is necessary in turning a trick (to be figured out) into an effect (to be experience). For example, the typical fused card plot (e.g. Doc Eason's version) involves a couple. The magical fusion is the climax of the love story developed along the way. Josh started with an interesting and relevant premise-collecting autographs, but he didn't develop it, and the fusion part wasn't organic to the theme. Obviously part of the problem was the extreme time burden of being on national TV.
Standard disclaimer: I'm not as good a magician as Josh Jay, I'm a fan of Josh Jay, yada yada. I hope this doesn't disqualify me from daring to analyze his performance, and hopefully learning something from it. Josh was exceptionally poised, and he has a real presence and likeability that really shone through the whole segment.

As usual with a clip - it makes good sense to watch with the sound off and see who's looking at who or what and when.

I'm watching for grimaces, sighs and distracted looks for clues to what happened.

Hey, speaking of cougars...That HBO documentary "Dancing with Tigers" is getting rave reviews in the NY press!

David Alexander wrote:Both women are in their mid-40s (or look like it) and Josh is 27...cougars and younger men...
Both of the women behaved like a slightly drunk and frustrated 40-something who is bored with her marriage to a rich, successful husband who is no longer interested in her for very good reasons. I've seen dozens of them in my time doing parties in Beverly Hills and Bel Air.

Actually, Kathy Lee is 55. Hoda is 44. Joshua was lucky to get out of there alive. From what I've seen of her, Kathy Lee always behaves like that.

KL would never have pulled that crap with P&T...but it sure would have been fun to watch her try!

Alrightey, then.

Topic caught my eye so though I would watch the clip under enforced silence.
Bottle production was clumsy, obvious, and handling too contrived, you even see the cork in thumbpalm (well I hope it was the cork?!?), card work was on par. Not impressed.
ps. No axe to grind or hidden agendas here, Ive seen him do a LOT better.
The two 'ladies' didn't help but as a seasoned pro that shouldn't be a problem for him.

Josh did a great job getting the show back on track; however, as an arm chair QB, I wish that he would have used the method that Doc Eason uses of having both cards placed back into the deck for the fusion. Going back to the deck while the supposed signed cards are being held, even if not to do anything tricky, seems to me to be unmotivated and a natural inviting of skepticism. Props to Josh for his well-earned success!

Just to clarify something... In our discussion of the behavior of the hosts on that segment, nobody here has suggested that the only alternative would have been overt cheerleading. Just because some of us thought what we saw from KLG was unnecessary and perhaps a touch unprofessional doesn't imply that we thought she should have been chanting Josh's name. Neither does it suggest we thought it was some unforgivably heinous hosting crime.

Josh did the right thing by not over-reacting. Perhaps we all take that as the best lesson of the event.

It was a real treat watching Josh perform, even if it was just a couple of pieces.
I don't think it was that unpredictable on how these 2 ladies behaved. They are talentless and need to be in the spotlight, David Alexander summed it up when he said:

" Both of the women behaved like a slightly drunk and frustrated 40-something who is bored with her marriage to a rich, successful husband who is no longer interested in her for very good reasons. I've seen dozens of them in my time doing parties in Beverly Hills and Bel Air."

Hoda did seem a little shikker.

On the point made above that Josh needed a better emotional hook, I would have said this to Kathie Lee:

"If you select the right card from this deck, it will tell you exactly what Frank is doing right now with your personal assistant, Veronica."

That would have shut her up.

One thing that was unclear and should have been to sell the book: were the tricks Josh performed in the book? That would seem to be the hook to sell the book.

There are lots of issues to consider here, and KLG is only part of the equation.

First, Joe is right. Cheerleading would come off as fake, and I do not think anyone would suggest that. But there is a difference between being insincere and doing what it takes to work together to produce a succesful show. But as someone pointed out, this isn't a theater troupe, this is TV and the cult of the celebrity.

But I think a little armchair quarterbacking could be beneficial. First, I know Josh and consider him a friend. I also know that he is critical of his own work. So, I see nothing wrong with turning a critical eye to his appearance with the intent of learning from it. While those such as TheDean may confuse criticism with "not getting along" I hope others realize the difference.

The biggest problem I saw was Josh's lack of presence in the moment. It seemed as if he had already worked out what he was going to say and do, and was not willing to LISTEN to the hosts and RESPOND appropriately.

While all performers should have a plan and script, these encounters are about interaction. Josh didn't interact. Occasionally he acknowledged their comments, but he quickly tried to force things back on his own track. You could almost hear him thinking, "Ok, great, but what I was saying was..."

"Magic is like a story." Where did that go? It was forced and out of place. He was rushed. There was something there, but he did not take the time to expound on it. They didn't find it interesting or important, so we have a conversational mishmash with word vomit, not presentation.

When they were introducing him, he was not making ye contact and was not listening. He was playing with the balloon.

He did not acknowledge the post production pat down - a very real moment. "Real" is what people connect to. There was an opportunity here and it was missed.

Likewise, when the first card moment occurred, he should have let it breath. It was stunning. But (and I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing in the moment) he seemed more interested in "getting to the punchline" than allowing this "real" moment to play out.

Now, I do not think this excuses KLG's gaff. But it became clear that there was a power struggle going on. The women had questions, Josh wanted to do tricks.

Would I have done better? Can't say. Hindsight is 20/20 and even more clear when one is looking at someone else's work. In this "magicians helping magicians" [censored] world we have created, people assume that criticism is condemnation. I am not here to condemn Josh, but to learn from him.

I think you're over analyzing things. Josh was nervous and who can blame him? Still and all, he did a great job and I seriously doubt ANYONE here would have done any better.

Why not over analyze things. You kind of have to if you want to ever learn from an experience.

We have an artifact in the form of a video clip. What made it what it was? Would other choices have impacted what it became?

I think these are fascinating questions and ones we can learn from.

Of course, this "brotherhood" nonsense means that any criticism is considered taboo. But to think that a performance couldn't have been better is equally nonsensical. So I don't think Josh needs defending (and it saddens me that we as a community would feel compelled to need to). Of course he was nervous.

But that doesn't mean we can't evaluate his choices and consider others.

Great actors do it.

Maybe that's why they suck less than we do.

B

Over analyze? As if everyone here already knows how to avoid those problems? As if all here know how to handle a situation where one's script delivery has gotten out of sync with their audience?

Okay let's over analyze - how about the way he set down the bottle, should the label have been facing the hosts or the camera?

First a message to Josh - your personality was perfect for TV. Full of energy and expression and not too over the top. I think you have a great future an as on camera performer.

Regards to KLG catching Josh do the move... to some extent, dont we as magicians ENCOURAGE this sort of reaction with sucker effects? Perhaps she thought the move was so obvious Josh wanted her to point it out?

Regarding the pat down - I think that was a potentially much funnier moment because what WERE they looking for? The bottle had been produced and they wanted to feel where it COULD have been? Weird spectator logic.. did they think he'd have more in there?

But yes, the two ladies were behaving exactly as spectators in that situation would:

Where did the bottle come from? Must have been from his sleeve or his jacket.

He won't say how he did the trick, but he wrote a book telling the secrets?

The signed card from his hand is now under our hands... is it the same one?

He dropped a card on the deck, better let him know I saw it!


Alternatively, they could have sat politely and let him do his tricks, plug his book, and clap at the right times. But then it would have been the Joshua Jay show.

An obervation...if Josh (who I think is terrific by the way) who is promoting a book...would of had had a copy in view throughout the appearance or at least had either himself, Kathy or Hoda hold up the book at the end so the TV audience could get a good look at the cover.
It was only flashed for a second right at the beginning.
Are the tricks he performed from the book? Thinking from a layman's POV...I'd like to have seen a few things from the book and get a glimpse at the cover so I could go to Border's and find it easily you know?

We've all encountered audiences like that...I thought he handled her fine just fine...

Back to the book -- here's another idea for future shows:

Josh shows the book and adds an unknown card as a bookmark explaining he's going to do the trick at that page and this way they can find the explanation easily.

He has a card selected and signed -- it vanishes and when they open the book it is the bookmark.

Tim, Tim, Tim... Don't you understand that it's a TV hosts job to sit back and be amazed at the close up magician? :)

That's how Johnny did it. That's how Cavett did it. Apparently TV hosts simply don't know their place these days.

Both Johnny and Dick were amateur magicians themselves.

Philemon wrote:Both Johnny and Dick were amateur magicians themselves.

While this comment is certainly true, its actually immaterial in this aspect of the discussion. Johnny Carson made all of his guests look good no matter what their vocation or avocation. I didnt watch Cavett enough to be able to say the same, but in what I did see he appeared to have the same quality.

What Brad noted were the reasons Johnny always gave for his demeanor with his guests: It was always about putting on a great show.

Too bad this simple conceptone I think should be timelessseems to be out of favor among todays celebrity talk show hosts.

Dustin

First of all, given the circumstances, Josh did a fine job. Could he have done better? Yes, of course. Nearly every show can be better and the performer who forgets that has a problem. Every performance is, or should be, a learning experiencean opportunity to learn and grow. You catch your mistakes, analyze, learn and are better prepared for the next time.

The statement that no one on this board could have done better is absurd as there are people here who have been performing professionally longer than Josh has been alive. There are also performers on this board who, because of experience with people like KLG and her cohort, know how to take control immediately and maintain control throughout their performance. The highly experienced performer does not automatically trust the other person to behave as they should. They control them so they behave as the performer needs them to behave. This comes with experience and practice. The Gold Standard in this being John Calvert. Blackstone Sr (and to a lesser extent Junior) was also a master at controlling his audience.

Of course there is always the high probability that people like that would never get on the show because of their strong personalities. The shows producers understand the talent they work with.

I still think Josh was something of a victim with the age disparity, him dressing young and the two older women deciding to get frisky with him. Its not that they were behaving out of character for women like those many of us have encountered at parties, but since they are professional television hosts they should have held their behavior to a higher standard. They werent even remotely gracious. He was just raw meat to be played with, something Im sure the producers who brought him in well understood.

I cannot imagine either of those women behaving the way they did with Jon Stetson or Docc Hilford or any top performer who has a strong presence and more experience. Josh will be fine and this will be just another growing and learning experience in the development of his career.

Kathy, on the other hand, will just be another day older and more frustrated as she goes home to Frank.

Brad Henderson wrote:Why not over analyze things. You kind of have to if you want to ever learn from an experience.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. I think you over-complicate or overcook your analysis. Analyze as much as you want, but I think the conclusions to be drawn are far simpler.

Of course, this "brotherhood" nonsense means that any criticism is considered taboo. But to think that a performance couldn't have been better is equally nonsensical. So I don't think Josh needs defending (and it saddens me that we as a community would feel compelled to need to). Of course he was nervous.

You misrepresent me. I'm not opposed to criticism, just over-complication where it's unnecessary or not germane. This thread starts with a psycho-analysis of the "Cougars" that beggars belief. That's an example of someone defending the "brotherhood" because the audience didn't stick to the script.

But that doesn't mean we can't evaluate his choices and consider others.

Of course.

Great actors do it.

Maybe that's why they suck less than we do.

No offense, it's too bad that you "suck". But don't assume we all do.

David Alexander wrote:The statement that no one on this board could have done better is absurd as there are people here who have been performing professionally longer than Josh has been alive.

Nonetheless, I don't think there is anyone who has contributed to this thread so far who could have done any better. Considering that several have clearly demonstrated that they find modern TV conditions anathema (the fact that the host is the main talent unless a known celeb appears) would suggest that they would have done far worse. Old fashioned expectations are no match for modern day realities. Deal with it.

I'm not saying Josh's performance couldn't have been better - he was perhaps nervous. But I don't think anyone here would have done any better than Josh under the circumstances.

Dustin Stinett wrote:

Philemon wrote:Both Johnny and Dick were amateur magicians themselves.

While this comment is certainly true, its actually immaterial in this aspect of the discussion. Johnny Carson made all of his guests look good no matter what their vocation or avocation. I didnt watch Cavett enough to be able to say the same, but in what I did see he appeared to have the same quality.

What Brad noted were the reasons Johnny always gave for his demeanor with his guests: It was always about putting on a great show.

Too bad this simple conceptone I think should be timelessseems to be out of favor among todays celebrity talk show hosts.

Dustin,
You couldn't be more wrong. Apparently it needs to be said:
Carson often treated magicians differently than other guests.
He treated magicians the way Leno treats stand up comics. As a fan, and a promoter.

There are plenty of times when Carson said or did something that got a laugh at the expense of a guest, or their dignity. I'm sure you can think of a couple if you try hard enough. I know I can.

Even with magicians, he wasn't the darling people make him out to be when things were unscripted. Go back and watch Michael Ammar's appearance on the show, with Ar-nold, and Billy Crystal. Johnny and the others upstaged Ammar, and interrupted his performance, for the sake of laughs. Michael is notably distracted, and his timing is off, yet pro that he is, the performance is one of the great examples of magic on TV because they behave like real spectators, and he deals with it.

Just as Roth did, on Late Night.

It amazes me that people bitch all the time about the disingenuous L&L audiences but are offended when a TV host acts like a real audience member...

KLG has to have the worst personality of anyone ever to host a TV show. I didn't even know she was back on TV, and I've never seen that other lady; (I use the term loosely.) I'm a GMA man. Anyway, Josh did a superb job of handling a horrible situation. Had I been caught in that situation, I would have probably looked up at Kathy and said something like, "Sweatshop matron says what?" God only knows what I would have said when the lady grabbed me. Good job Josh.

Wow. That'd show them. Those evil... spectators.