Josh Jay

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Bob Farmer
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Bob Farmer » December 18th, 2008, 7:54 pm

Back to the book -- here's another idea for future shows:

Josh shows the book and adds an unknown card as a bookmark explaining he's going to do the trick at that page and this way they can find the explanation easily.

He has a card selected and signed -- it vanishes and when they open the book it is the bookmark.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Bill Duncan » December 18th, 2008, 8:22 pm

Tim, Tim, Tim... Don't you understand that it's a TV hosts job to sit back and be amazed at the close up magician? :)

That's how Johnny did it. That's how Cavett did it. Apparently TV hosts simply don't know their place these days.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Philemon » December 18th, 2008, 9:14 pm

Both Johnny and Dick were amateur magicians themselves.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Dustin Stinett » December 18th, 2008, 9:28 pm

Philemon wrote:Both Johnny and Dick were amateur magicians themselves.


While this comment is certainly true, its actually immaterial in this aspect of the discussion. Johnny Carson made all of his guests look good no matter what their vocation or avocation. I didnt watch Cavett enough to be able to say the same, but in what I did see he appeared to have the same quality.

What Brad noted were the reasons Johnny always gave for his demeanor with his guests: It was always about putting on a great show.

Too bad this simple conceptone I think should be timelessseems to be out of favor among todays celebrity talk show hosts.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby David Alexander » December 18th, 2008, 10:12 pm

First of all, given the circumstances, Josh did a fine job. Could he have done better? Yes, of course. Nearly every show can be better and the performer who forgets that has a problem. Every performance is, or should be, a learning experiencean opportunity to learn and grow. You catch your mistakes, analyze, learn and are better prepared for the next time.

The statement that no one on this board could have done better is absurd as there are people here who have been performing professionally longer than Josh has been alive. There are also performers on this board who, because of experience with people like KLG and her cohort, know how to take control immediately and maintain control throughout their performance. The highly experienced performer does not automatically trust the other person to behave as they should. They control them so they behave as the performer needs them to behave. This comes with experience and practice. The Gold Standard in this being John Calvert. Blackstone Sr (and to a lesser extent Junior) was also a master at controlling his audience.

Of course there is always the high probability that people like that would never get on the show because of their strong personalities. The shows producers understand the talent they work with.

I still think Josh was something of a victim with the age disparity, him dressing young and the two older women deciding to get frisky with him. Its not that they were behaving out of character for women like those many of us have encountered at parties, but since they are professional television hosts they should have held their behavior to a higher standard. They werent even remotely gracious. He was just raw meat to be played with, something Im sure the producers who brought him in well understood.

I cannot imagine either of those women behaving the way they did with Jon Stetson or Docc Hilford or any top performer who has a strong presence and more experience. Josh will be fine and this will be just another growing and learning experience in the development of his career.

Kathy, on the other hand, will just be another day older and more frustrated as she goes home to Frank.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 12:06 am

Brad Henderson wrote:Why not over analyze things. You kind of have to if you want to ever learn from an experience.


Perhaps I should have been clearer. I think you over-complicate or overcook your analysis. Analyze as much as you want, but I think the conclusions to be drawn are far simpler.

Of course, this "brotherhood" nonsense means that any criticism is considered taboo. But to think that a performance couldn't have been better is equally nonsensical. So I don't think Josh needs defending (and it saddens me that we as a community would feel compelled to need to). Of course he was nervous.


You misrepresent me. I'm not opposed to criticism, just over-complication where it's unnecessary or not germane. This thread starts with a psycho-analysis of the "Cougars" that beggars belief. That's an example of someone defending the "brotherhood" because the audience didn't stick to the script.

But that doesn't mean we can't evaluate his choices and consider others.


Of course.

Great actors do it.

Maybe that's why they suck less than we do.


No offense, it's too bad that you "suck". But don't assume we all do.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 12:22 am

David Alexander wrote:The statement that no one on this board could have done better is absurd as there are people here who have been performing professionally longer than Josh has been alive.


Nonetheless, I don't think there is anyone who has contributed to this thread so far who could have done any better. Considering that several have clearly demonstrated that they find modern TV conditions anathema (the fact that the host is the main talent unless a known celeb appears) would suggest that they would have done far worse. Old fashioned expectations are no match for modern day realities. Deal with it.

I'm not saying Josh's performance couldn't have been better - he was perhaps nervous. But I don't think anyone here would have done any better than Josh under the circumstances.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Bill Duncan » December 19th, 2008, 12:45 am

Dustin Stinett wrote:
Philemon wrote:Both Johnny and Dick were amateur magicians themselves.


While this comment is certainly true, its actually immaterial in this aspect of the discussion. Johnny Carson made all of his guests look good no matter what their vocation or avocation. I didnt watch Cavett enough to be able to say the same, but in what I did see he appeared to have the same quality.

What Brad noted were the reasons Johnny always gave for his demeanor with his guests: It was always about putting on a great show.

Too bad this simple conceptone I think should be timelessseems to be out of favor among todays celebrity talk show hosts.

Dustin,
You couldn't be more wrong. Apparently it needs to be said:
Carson often treated magicians differently than other guests.
He treated magicians the way Leno treats stand up comics. As a fan, and a promoter.

There are plenty of times when Carson said or did something that got a laugh at the expense of a guest, or their dignity. I'm sure you can think of a couple if you try hard enough. I know I can.

Even with magicians, he wasn't the darling people make him out to be when things were unscripted. Go back and watch Michael Ammar's appearance on the show, with Ar-nold, and Billy Crystal. Johnny and the others upstaged Ammar, and interrupted his performance, for the sake of laughs. Michael is notably distracted, and his timing is off, yet pro that he is, the performance is one of the great examples of magic on TV because they behave like real spectators, and he deals with it.

Just as Roth did, on Late Night.

It amazes me that people bitch all the time about the disingenuous L&L audiences but are offended when a TV host acts like a real audience member...

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Pepka » December 19th, 2008, 1:23 am

KLG has to have the worst personality of anyone ever to host a TV show. I didn't even know she was back on TV, and I've never seen that other lady; (I use the term loosely.) I'm a GMA man. Anyway, Josh did a superb job of handling a horrible situation. Had I been caught in that situation, I would have probably looked up at Kathy and said something like, "Sweatshop matron says what?" God only knows what I would have said when the lady grabbed me. Good job Josh.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 1:28 am

Wow. That'd show them. Those evil... spectators.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby David Vamer » December 19th, 2008, 3:11 am

Josh biffed the move. He rushed it, and called attention to it AS HE WAS DOING IT. It was a rookie mistake that was egregious enough that even a ditz like KLG caught it.

The bottle production would be a terrific live performance piece, but it was TERRIBLE for TV. A second viewing of the vid, without the need to slow it down, makes the method PAINFULLY obvious. Another rookie mistake, this time in terms of selection of material.

Josh's audience management was simply non-exisitent because HE WASN'T LISTENING. He plowed ahead with his script, even to the point of delivering the "Ebay buyer" joke despite the fact that KLG had just burned the premise. "Magic is a story"?!?! WTH?

Josh is an incredibly well-versed magician. He's an OUTSTANDING advocate for magic, and is clearly ambitious. Unfortunately, at this stage of his development as a performer, he has no business performing magic on live network TV. Who wants to be known to future generations as "The Magician Who Couldn't Fool Kathie Lee Gifford"?

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Joe M. Turner » December 19th, 2008, 5:44 am

Just for more clarity -- I'm not suggesting they "didn't behave like real spectators" or that they were "evil." I am not "offended" by what they did. I thought it was unnecessary and didn't add to their show or their celebrity status. I thought it was a mild-to-mediocre annoyance, perhaps self-inflicted... but that Josh managed it well enough. No, I didn't think they should bow down and moan/chant his name or erect some Greek columns behind him and crown him with a crown of laurel leaves. I'm not sure why the continuing suggestions that the only alternative to what happened was an exaggeratedly positive, idol-worshiping response.

Those ladies were not "real spectators." Some real spectators act like that, yes, but most "real spectators" are not hosting a national television show with millions watching. I think some of their choices did not add to the success of their show or to their own celebrity status. I thought it made them come across as somewhat petty and a bit irritable... not entertaining, not sweet, not actually interested in anything other than themselves. That may, in fact, be the kind of character that they wish to portray and that their producers may want from them... but it didn't make me want to watch them do the same thing to any other guests.

That is all.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Dave Shepherd » December 19th, 2008, 5:47 am

David Vamer wrote:Josh's audience management was simply non-exisitent because HE WASN'T LISTENING. He plowed ahead with his script, even to the point of delivering the "Ebay buyer" joke despite the fact that KLG had just burned the premise. "Magic is a story"?!?! WTH?

I have to agree there. I was kind of surprised at how "tricky" the segment was, with very little actual interaction with the two women.

I realize he was selling a book, which is probably about tricks, but all there was were tricks. It was about the one trick after the other, not about any stories at all. The card fusion, for example, was just about two cards fusing--not about something else, as it is in Anniverary Waltz.

The bottle production was, in fact, screamingly obvious. That was an awful long time to be holding a balloon in front of the open jacket. Naturally the spectators wanted to see inside there.

I'm always glad to see magic on TV, but it's always better when the magic completely dumbfounds the obnoxious hosts (as in Roth on Letterman). That didn't happen here.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Silly Walter » December 19th, 2008, 7:45 am

Bill Duncan wrote:It amazes me that people bitch all the time about the disingenuous L&L audiences but are offended when a TV host acts like a real audience member...


I agree. What makes anyone think that Kathy Lee Gifford would have acted any differently if she were a customer at a restaurant or a guest at a party? She may not be a fan of magic because of a bad experience with one in the past? Maybe she doesn't like magic? Who knows.

Also, you are a guest on their show and they pretty much can decide how they want to treat you. I would hope that magicians and other guests would be treated with courtesy and respect but it doesn't always work that way.

I do think Josh handled it well but he is lucky he wasn't on Letterman. He would have been crucified.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Silly Walter » December 19th, 2008, 7:53 am

Pepka wrote:Had I been caught in that situation, I would have probably looked up at Kathy and said something like, "Sweatshop matron says what?" God only knows what I would have said when the lady grabbed me. Good job Josh.


I like when people make up fictitious scenarios about what they would do if they were in the same situation. Besides the fact that the line you claim you would crack is embarassingly stupid, most people watching wouldn't even get it (assuming that your segment would air). Of course that is assuming you would have been booked for a show like that to begin with.

And if you did make that joke you would do more harm to magic (and get attacked on boards like this) than good.

Josh did the right thing and handled it well.

Lesson learned - if you didn't like how KLG interacted with the magician, don't do her show when you get booked.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 19th, 2008, 7:58 am

When performing on a TV show - does one play to the host(s) or the camera? Does the show permit a discussion of such things beforehand?
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Stan Willis » December 19th, 2008, 8:26 am

I think Joshua Jay did a fantastic job regarding his appearance on National TV and I give him a lot of credit and control especially when continually being flashed by fifty-five(55)year old leg.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Steve Bryant » December 19th, 2008, 10:12 am

Take a look at the current (November 2008) installment of Little Egypt Magic (littleegyptmagic.com/magic.html). Barnes and Noble is giving Josh great placement throughout the Midwest.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby David Alexander » December 19th, 2008, 11:21 am

About no one on this board being able to do better, Ill relate two incidents that happened to me when I was promoting my book some years back. My publishers publicist got a last minute booking on a Washington D.C. radio show with what turned out to be two shock jocks. My media escort and I were able to find them on the car radio as I was driven to the station. I heard two young smart asses who sounded like they were still in junior high school. I was to be on the show for an hour. Lucky me.

After being welcomed to the show the first question thrown at me was Did Gene Roddenberry have herpes? It was a question designed to throw me off my game and rattle me. I smiled and said in a calm voice, No, and thats a nervy question coming from two guys who arent wearing pants.

They laughed and realized they couldnt screw with me and we had a great time after that. They kept me an extra hour.

Then there was the time I was being interview by CNBC for a large documentary on Genes life. Id done quite a bit of consulting with the producer even to the point of arranging an interview with Genes widow, Majel (who died yesterday) at her home. The producer was all light and friendliness until she sat down for the interview. Her first question, asked with a smile, was designed to elicit a negative comment about Rick Berman, then Executive Producer of Star Trek. I smiled back and said, Why does everyone blame Rick Berman for not being Gene Roddenberry? That set her back and the rest of the interview went well.

So, the answer is, there is at least one person on this thread who has had experience with both attack journalists and rude hosts and knows how to handle himself in such situations. There are almost certainly others as well.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Dustin Stinett » December 19th, 2008, 12:33 pm

I dont want to highjack this thread into a Johnny Carson memorial, but since my knowledge of JC has been challenged thus:

Bill Duncan wrote:Dustin,
You couldn't be more wrong. There are plenty of times when Carson said or did something that got a laugh at the expense of a guest, or their dignity.


All I will say is,

Name one. (Not counting practical jokes he played on friends like Buddy Rich, Ed, Doc, and other celebrities who were in on such thingsagain, all part of the show.)

But before you even try, go back and watch it again and note how he dealt with the aftermath of the joke and how he would turn it back onto himself.

Dustin

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby David Alexander » December 19th, 2008, 2:11 pm

Johnny Carson was a genius at what he did. I watched one evening when he continually needled his friend Fernando Lamas who had something of a temper. Johnny took Lamas right up to the point where it looked like he was going to explode and then turned the whole thing back on himself. Lamas broke up as did the audience. It was a brilliant piece of impromptu theater that Carson managed perfectly.

The fact that Carson had no difficulty in getting BIG stars on his show is directly contrasted with Cher's comment to David Letterman when she finally appeared on his show after he'd been trying for years to get her to appear.

Letterman made the observation about the length of time it had taken to get her on and asked something to the effect of "why?" and worked hard to pull it out of her.

Cher finally responded, "Because you're an [censored]."

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby erdnasephile » December 19th, 2008, 2:15 pm

Mr. Jay's experience reminds me of a story Eugene Burger relates in Secrets and Mysteries.

In 1981, Doug Henning chose to perform Phoas Cut and Restored Silk (Tarbell 7) in a close-up setting for a local NBC television personality in Chicago. When Mr. Henning got to the big finish, the host, Jorie Lueloff, asked: Arent you going to open it out? (something that cant be done with this method). When Mr. Henning didnt reply, she proceeded to ask the question a second time. Mr. Henning finally offered: I only open it out when I use it.

What I take from this anecdote and the current performance under discussion is this: For a high stakes situation, select the most appropriate technology for the job. As others have noted, this particular handling of the fusion plot was not the strongest, especially for this setting. Therefore, a suboptimal construction combined with a frisky spectator runs the risk of not coming off that well.

For example, in his original write-up of John Carneys Suicide Match in Genii, Jim Patton notes that Mr. Carney developed the routine specifically for a setting where the spectators were psychologically likely to be courteous to the performer--thereby, significantly decreasing the risk of ending dirty. Mr. Patton went on to suggest that when circumstances are different, one should consider using a different method that would withstand greater scrutiny.

Therefore, when one is dealing with someone already known to be gabby, grabby, and aggressive (KL)taking unnecessary risks probably isnt prudent. Better to do some pre-show research, anticipate what might happen, and choose a method and presentation that suits the scenario.

IMHO, the best way to deal with the KLs of the world starts with fooling them badly via superior, well-chosen methods for that particular performance. If we dont do that as well as we should, thats when the trouble begins...

P.S.: I think in order to be balanced, I should point out that once he got caught out, instead of responding with a snide rejoinder (which would have made him look childish), Mr. Jay just covered, carried on, and completed the effect. He also cleaned up at the end to prevent further damage. He did a professional job of making the best of a situation gone awry, which shows great poise and talent.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 7:37 pm

David Alexander wrote:So, the answer is, there is at least one person on this thread who has had experience with both attack journalists and rude hosts and knows how to handle himself in such situations. There are almost certainly others as well.


Were you performing magic? If you were and you used a steely rejoinder to set them on their ass, then in my view you failed.

David Alexander wrote:The fact that Carson had no difficulty in getting BIG stars on his show is directly contrasted with Cher's comment to David Letterman when she finally appeared on his show after he'd been trying for years to get her to appear.

Letterman made the observation about the length of time it had taken to get her on and asked something to the effect of "why?" and worked hard to pull it out of her.

Cher finally responded, "Because you're an [censored]."


This is all undeniably true. But it also illustrates a generational change. The point is, if you want to appear on Letterman's show to promote your product then you'd better be prepared to deal with his crap. Pining for Johnny Carson's hospitality is a wasted effort.

And when I say dealing with Letterman's crap I don't mean standing toe to toe and putting him on his ass. I am aware from performers who have appeared on Letterman that the show producer lays down the law in the green room to guests who aren't major celebs (i.e., comics, actors, magicians) telling them what they can and can't do and much of it is about not doing anything to get a laugh by belittling Letterman. And let's face it, if you did make some wisecrack along the lines of some of the fantasies that have been aired in this thread then there's several ways it might go, most of them bad for you. You'd either be cut short and/or not aired or completely crushed by Letterman. Forget about a second appearance.

Let's not forget that Josh has cultivated a very warm appealing performance style (based on his own natural personality). If he had hit these people with zingers (totally unwarranted under the circumstances) it would have been totally out of character and hit a bum note.

Anyway, it's been an amusing discussion.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Jim Maloney » December 19th, 2008, 7:56 pm

Cugel wrote:Were you performing magic? If you were and you used a steely rejoinder to set them on their ass, then in my view you failed.


Why would your view be different if he wasn't performing magic? How does that factor into the outcome?

I think David's replies, which he used in actual situations, are far better than some of the ones suggested here hypothetically.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 8:41 pm

Jim Maloney wrote:
Cugel wrote:Were you performing magic? If you were and you used a steely rejoinder to set them on their ass, then in my view you failed.


Why would your view be different if he wasn't performing magic? How does that factor into the outcome?


I just got the sense they were meant to be tough guy put downs. I think that's inappropriate - and certainly wouldn't fit for what Josh was doing and would be poor advice in that context. If I misinterpreted that, then my apologies. Just the way it read, made me get the sense that David Alexander was trying to show how tough he could be - a little menace and steel in there. Maybe that was necessary in his book tour, but I wouldn't want to compromise my performing style to do that in a promotional spot. In a bar with some [censored] spectator, maybe. Again, if that wasn't David's intention, then maybe I'm just reading too much in with all of the "If it was me I woulda" posts that have come into the thread of late.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Dustin Stinett » December 19th, 2008, 9:00 pm

Its not a generational thing; its a talent thing.

Leno, Letterman, OBrian, et al have all admitted that they lack the talents of Carson, and dont even pretend to try. And dont kid yourself: what David and I are talking about is indeed a talentif not a giftthat very few have had; before or after. Without that talent, a talk show host who tries to make everyone appear good just ends up looking like a disingenuous ass-kisser (seen the Bonnie Hunt show yet?).

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 9:16 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:Its not a generational thing; its a talent thing.

Leno, Letterman, OBrian, et al have all admitted that they lack the talents of Carson, and dont even pretend to try. And dont kid yourself: what David and I are talking about is indeed a talentif not a giftthat very few have had; before or after. Without that talent, a talk show host who tries to make everyone appear good just ends up looking like a disingenuous ass-kisser (seen the Bonnie Hunt show yet?).

Dustin


In regard to views in this thread, it's not a talent thing, it's a generational thing.

I meant it's a generational thing in the sense that you are pining for Carson because you don't like what we have now. My point is, we have what we have now, so deal with it on its own terms, not through some nostalgic lens. I wish Carson was still around to showcase magic, but he isn't and the ranges of acceptable behavior on TV have expanded whether we like it or understand it or not.

I'm not arguing over whether Carson had talent or not (he did). That's a different discussion.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Dustin Stinett » December 19th, 2008, 10:19 pm

Nifty argument. A lack of talent can be reasoned away as being "generational" and "what we have now, so deal with it" and having talent is "pining" and "nostalgic."

I give up. You win.

Is there a wall around here? I need to pound my head on something else now.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 19th, 2008, 10:26 pm

What specifically do you mean by talent? Some sort of unconscious competence perhaps? That kind of language prohibits understanding and communication - propagating both a poverty of condition and ignorance for others.

IMHO there are plenty of walls. And also IMHO those who dislike banging into them probably need to stay inside their walls. "Not by the hair on my chinny chin chin" they exclaim - and rightfully so.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 10:29 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:Nifty argument. A lack of talent can be reasoned away as being "generational" and "what we have now, so deal with it" and having talent is "pining" and "nostalgic."

I give up. You win.

Is there a wall around here? I need to pound my head on something else now.


Thanks for dismissing me because you failed to comprehend the distinction I am making. I think you're the one who wants to "win", hence your dismissive response.

My point is that there aren't many Carsons around but there are a bunch of Letterman-style personalities. That's a fact. Pining for Carson isn't going to help you succeed in an appearance on Letterman.

That's all. Don't take it personally. It's just an opinion.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 19th, 2008, 10:39 pm

Cugel, please, the parrot is dead okay? It's not just pining for Carson but for all sorts of things that simply don't exist anymore - like Douglas Adams, disco and a time before "new kids on the block" was an obvious reference to unsavory activities.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Brad Henderson » December 19th, 2008, 11:01 pm

Cugel wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:Great actors do it.

Maybe that's why they suck less than we do.


No offense, it's too bad that you "suck". But don't assume we all do.



Really?

It's come to name calling?

Let's look at the issue. I am lucky. I have seen some of the greatest magicians in the world share their art. I have been, on occasion, moved, inspired and awed. I can count the number of times any of those has happened on one and a half hands. The number of times when I it seemed like I was seeing real magic was once. (well, that's not entirely true.)

I have also had the pleasure of seeing some very good actors work. And I can say - as a rule - when it comes to making something seem like it's happening for the very first time, when it comes to making it seem like an accident really occurred, when it comes to making it seem like something is there - but isn't, when it comes to making it seem like what they are doing is real - when it's not; when it comes to all these things actors (as a lot) tend to do our job a hell of a lot better than we do (as a lot.)

Remember when I said I had only had the experience of seeing what seemed like real magic only once - that's not true. I can think of two other times. Of course, these were magical moments created by actors - NOT magicians. (And I am talking about actual conjuring effects that transcended into magic - not just a profound aesthetic experience from participating in an actor's artwork.)

Maybe that explains why show producers will often hire actors instead of magicians to do a magic show. They (as a rule) do it BETTER THAN WE DO.

So, yes, they suck less than we do.

I have no idea who you are, but I'll wager dollars to donuts that I can teach Geoffrey Rush a trick and he will wipe the floor with your ass.

Cugel, if you cannot see this, then you are blinded either by ignorance or admiration and have no business offering critical comments about anything.

Cugel wrote:Nonetheless, I don't think there is anyone who has contributed to this thread so far who could have done any better.


Really? So now we're a prognosticator?

Think about it.

Given the fact that any of us has had different experiences, different expectations, and different personalities, it's guaranteed we would have made different choices. The different choices would, of course, lead to different outcomes.

It is undeniable that some of these choices would have been led to an experience worse than the one which occurred. That's not to say all of those choices would have to be dumb choices. Sometimes smart choices lead to awful outcomes. (And I agree that a "put down" would probably not have been a good choice here.)

But it is also equally possible that some of these other choices would have lead to better outcomes than the one Josh experienced.

So, simply on the face of it, your claim is utter nonsense.

Now, if you are president of the Josh Jay fan club, I can forgive your enthusiasm, but not your blindness. Josh is a great guy. (Which means in the world of magic no one is supposed to utter a critical word about him, I guess.) But Josh is also a human, and a young one. While he has considerable experience working for magicians, and some experience working for laypeople, he is still young. It shows in his manner, his thinking, and in his choices. No one faults him for being young. That's a good thing. But that doesn't mean that other people, with different assets, couldn't have made other choices that would have led to other - more positive - results.

Brad

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 19th, 2008, 11:18 pm

Really?

It's come to name calling?


Huh? Am I in a parallel universe? You're the one who inferred we all suck. Thread drift - the silent killer.

Look. I don't think anyone here would have done any better than Josh. Maybe no worse, but certainly no better under the circumstances.

I only skimmed the rest of your post but I gather it was some fervently held views about actors being better than magicians, so I won't address any of it or read it in detail. Certainly not until you can avoid drifting too much.

And I'm not a member of a Josh Jay fan club. That sort of comment is the forum equivalent of school yard debating. Is that how you undermine my contributions? Impressive.

I know Josh, but haven't seen or spoken to him for nearly three years. I think he's a fine performer. I've had long experience as a performer and experience in the television industry (in production) and in radio. I think he did a fine job under the circumstances. A pity about getting caught on the move, but [censored] happens. At the end of the day, these are just opinions. Take them or leave them.

Besides, I'm not the one calling women Cougars or speculating on the fidelity of their marriages or making other slurs because they dared to be normal. Let's get some perspective here.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Brad Henderson » December 19th, 2008, 11:40 pm

Cugel wrote:Huh? Am I in a parallel universe? You're the one who inferred we all suck. Thread drift - the silent killer.


If I had said, "you suck" (which I did not) then I would have been name calling. But I think a realistic perspective of our relative merits and abilities as a community is valuable. My glasses are not rose colored.

I am thrilled you have chosen to ignore the entire point of my argument - which has everything to do with the topic. Sure getting caught and her reaction was part of it. But that's not the only lesson we can learn here. You may not want to learn. That's cool. Some of us do.

Josh was not present in the moment. He was not listening. He was not acting, or re-acting. He was plowing ahead. And that led (I think) in a large measure to the outcome. If he is not going to respond in the moment, it makes sense for the host to take charge. That's what she did. She knows her demographic. She tried to elicit responses from him that she felt would be interesting to that group. Did he listen? Did he reply? No - for my next trick!

You may choose to stick your fingers in your ears and go "nah nah nah, not listening" and that is your prerogative. (And I don't feel that to be name calling, it seems that is what you ARE doing.) But isn't that the exact same attitude which has led to the fact that magicians are viewed as they are? "Everything I do is just fine. No one could have done it better. I don't want to think about what I did or what I could have done! I'm a star. A Great Big Shining Star!!!"

If you don't think we as magicians (as a group or individually) can learn from actors then you . . . well, that would be name calling.

You've quacked. You've waddled. The rest follows.

(And for the record, I don't see how calling the host names helps anyone either.)

Brad

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 19th, 2008, 11:42 pm

Cugel wrote: "Look. I don't think anyone here would have done any better than Josh. Maybe no worse, but certainly no better under the circumstances."

You post under a pseudonym, and so do many other people on this Forum. How can you make an absolute statement like that since you don't know who's posting and reading this Forum?

I know for a fact that there are indeed people who would have done better in that situation than Josh, people who read and post on this Forum--simply by virtue of selecting more appropriate material for the situation because of greater experience. Or doing the sleight better, or knowing how to tell a joke at the right second that takes the big-mouthed spectator's mind off the subject INSTANTLY.

And I'll name just one person, who happens to use his real name posting here, who would have done better in that situation: John Archer.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » December 20th, 2008, 12:43 am

I wasn't referring to every person who is a member of the forum. Just those who had posted in the thread to date. Maybe they would have kicked ass. But if they had overreacted in the real world the way (some) indicated they would have in this thread, I suspect they wouldn't have been invited back. But I can only base my opinion on what they state they would or wouldn't do.

In any case we'll probably never know. Josh is on TV pushing a magic book, and we aren't. My opinion is that he did okay, even with a few issues - and that the hostesses were no worse than many women you might get to work for in the real world.

At the end of the day, it's just an opinion.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Ryan Matney » December 20th, 2008, 4:17 am

Dustin Stinett wrote:Nifty argument. A lack of talent can be reasoned away as being "generational" and "what we have now, so deal with it" and having talent is "pining" and "nostalgic."

I give up. You win.

Is there a wall around here? I need to pound my head on something else now.


Actually Dustin, if you remember the argument I was involved in. It seems that Leno and others lack of talent, or 'gift' as you say, to compare with Carson is simply because they havn't worked hard enough or wre not trained as small children. I've accepted this and I think you should too.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Dustin Stinett » December 20th, 2008, 4:41 am

Soy un perdedor.
--Beck

:)

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Silly Walter » December 20th, 2008, 8:56 am

Brad Henderson wrote:...I have no idea who you are, but I'll wager dollars to donuts that I can teach Geoffrey Rush a trick and he will wipe the floor with your ass...

Brad


LOL.

That's funny on so many levels.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Kurt Ruckman » December 20th, 2008, 11:59 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Cugel wrote: "Look. I don't think anyone here would have done any better than Josh. Maybe no worse, but certainly no better under the circumstances."

You post under a pseudonym, and so do many other people on this Forum. How can you make an absolute statement like that since you don't know who's posting and reading this Forum?

I know for a fact that there are indeed people who would have done better in that situation than Josh, people who read and post on this Forum--simply by virtue of selecting more appropriate material for the situation because of greater experience. Or doing the sleight better, or knowing how to tell a joke at the right second that takes the big-mouthed spectator's mind off the subject INSTANTLY.

And I'll name just one person, who happens to use his real name posting here, who would have done better in that situation: John Archer.


Some thoughts:
Regarding who could do better, I seem to recall on an early David Williamson video a TV clip where a little boy "ruined" his trick by reaching over and revealing the gaff. David Williamson, without missing a beat, turned the incident in a hysterically funny event. How would he have handled Kathy Lee?

Regarding the "magic is story" theme that Josh was ostensibly illustrating--different audiences respond to different stories. Perhaps Josh could have chosen a story that would have resonated with the ladies on the show in such a way that they wouldn't have been focused only on catching him out.

Regarding the specific handling of the effect, it's an interesting discussion whether Josh's handling of the Anniversary Waltz (which he sells as an "Instant Download" on a prominent internet magic seller site) is an improvement over the original (presumably the one Doc sells). Doesn't seem to be in this case.

Regarding his choice of tricks--shouldn't he have been doing tricks FROM the book he's promoting?


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