Josh Jay

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Ryan Matney
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Ryan Matney » December 25th, 2008, 4:48 am

Well, NONE of what you gave as examples would help you at all with nerves in front of an audience. So...an infinite enumber of years?
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Paul Gordon » December 25th, 2008, 6:13 am

I think Josh Jay did very well in the face of two egocentric presenters. Yes, his "move" was jerky, and yes - maybe he could have "got out" of it in a different way. Although he's 27, he looks much younger and "game" for a couple of old birds! But, well done Josh Jay! Well done because he came over better than they tried to make him look; and they came over a tad churlish!

I have "done" only a few T.V shows over the years and if I've learnt only one thing, it's this: ONLY do sure-fire stuff that's not angly or misdirection-prone. The camera doesn't react like a live punter and T.V hosts usually bait magicians and "look out" for "moves" and so on. (If it was me [working for a churlish host], I'd have done a trick that allowed them to shuffle the deck at the start. It kind of takes the wind out of their sails and frustrates them further when you come to a rip-roaring conclusion.)

Anyway, again - well done Josh Jay.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Philippe Noël » December 25th, 2008, 2:21 pm


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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 25th, 2008, 2:38 pm

000 wrote: "Serious question: How many years of daily tinkering with the pasteboards, writing instructional books and tapes does one require before one can do a friggin card trick on TV without shaking like a leaf or flashing (part of) the method?"

It's not the technical aspect: I could go on TV and do The Phoenix Aces without breaking a sweat. It's the presentational aspect, and your question leads directly to that: all of the activies you cite are things one does alone. I used to perform card magic a lot for laymen as both a kid and, and later, hanging out in singles' bars in Manhattan for years. I got a lot of experience performing for men and women in their late teens (remember when it was legal to drink at 18?) through early 30s. While they were drinking and socializing. I didn't approach anyone, just sat at the bar fiddling with the deck. They approached me. I learned the real lesson: that with nothing more than a deck of cards, you can kill laymen repeatedly, over and over, and that women DO love card tricks when you have the right personality and presentation.

But all of that was many decades ago in my life. It doesn't matter how much you think about magic, or practice, in isolation: nothing makes you a performer but working for real people on a regular basis. Something that, as the editor of Genii, and with a family and young daughter, I don't have the time or energy (at middle age) to do.

I studied acting at the Adler Conservatory through NYU for several years. I'd been performing in plays and talent shows at school and camp since age 6 or 7. But the more I studied, and the older I got, the worse my nerves would get before a performance. I eventually decided that it wasn't worth it. I don't get nervous before lectures for magicians, or when I do a card trick for laymen on the spur of the moment, however doing a TV spot in front of millions would definitely jangle my nerves to the point that the discomfort isn't worth it.

If I were going to write a book for the public and go on a publicity tour, I would find some way to do a lot of magic for real people and start performing for them as far in advance as possible--months if I could--in order to get back into the swing. I would still be nervous on TV, but I would be prepared.

Josh Jay is a professional magician, and I bet he does tricks for people many times a week. But his experience performing on TV is not nearly as extensive as his live performing experience. One thing that you can learn from watching David Copperfield is not to take chances on TV. You really can't rely on misdirection at all--that's one of the reasons TV sucks the life out of magic. The version of the Fusion trick that Josh did relies on misdirection to ditch a card--not a good idea on TV, it would seem, since not only could we see and hear it, but Kathy Lee saw it as well. It was a poor choice, but Josh is young and he learns from that sort of thing--as we all do.

Once thing I've noticed is that magicians who aren't used to being closely miked don't understand what things can be heard when the volume is turned up and the mike is on your body. All sorts of small sounds that are never heard when there's ambient noise in a room (such as the sound a Pass might make) are plainly audible on TV depending on how you're miked.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Joelgiv » December 26th, 2008, 12:42 am

Hey guys,

Josh is a friend and I simply can't agree with what a select few are
saying about him. Many people on the board recognized, as I do, just
how tough the Today Show situation was. Here's another example of Josh
handling himself well, this time with a more supportive host. It's a
cool little segment.

http://www.onlinemagicclub.com/2008/11/ ... -new-book/

Joel Givens

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Leonard Hevia » December 26th, 2008, 4:19 pm

Josh's experience with Kathy Lee reminded me of what I recently read in Aaron Fisher's new Genii column "Tension, Focus, and Design in Card Magic: "As Erdnase wrote in 1902, even a hint of suspicion will spoil the ruse. If your spectator senses even the barest touch of impropriety, you're busted."

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Mark M Walsh » January 7th, 2009, 11:09 pm

I have been reading this thread with interest, sorry to join the discussion so late, but it was a link on another forum which brought me here.

On that particular discussion board someone made the observation that (I'm paraphrasing here) the purpose behind Josh's appearance on the show was to promote a new book that teaches magic.

What seems missing on this thread is any discussion about how this position may have squewed Kathy and Hooda's reactions towards Joshua Jay as a guest on the show.

I've read the comments above about them being coogars and trite and all that, but I imagine they may have interacted with him differently if his purpose was solely to entertain rather than to promote the sale of a book which offers non-magicians a chance to learn magic.

Remember that chapter in Strong Magic about Prestige?

I am sure they would have treated him differently had they be told that he was only there to entertain.

He would have had an easier time performing and he would have been much more entertaining had he checked the pitchman at the door.

Hopefully they will have him back on we will all get to see how much better he will be (and he is very good) when he just comes to be "josh in the raw" and without the pretenses (real or imagined?) of, "remember the secrets are for sale." The psychology is all wrong.

Still overall KLG and Hooda weren't that bad and neither was Josh.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 8th, 2009, 2:01 pm

I don't think they would have behaved any differently if the purpose of his appearance was not to sell something. (Most of the appearances on most shows are promotional in nature.)

As for your comment about Strong Magic, I would take most of what you read in there with a grain of salt. It's a book for amateurs.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Joe M. Turner » January 8th, 2009, 2:05 pm

FYI -- Josh announced via his Facebook status today that he will be on Good Morning America on Monday and "this time he ain't takin no [censored]."

There you have it!

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby flynn » January 8th, 2009, 2:37 pm

He should have done one of his card to impossible locations. I've seen him do several and it frys the lay people. His Think of a Card using the pass would have been good too.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Mark M Walsh » January 8th, 2009, 3:00 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:
As for your comment about Strong Magic, I would take most of what you read in there with a grain of salt. It's a book for amateurs.


Richard, are you serious?

There is a difference in appearing on a show for the purpose of selling a book vs. doing a segment to promote one's appearance at bla bla bla venue in NYC or what have you.

The hosts can only react to the guest based on their perception of his purpose and stature. Coming on the show with the idea of selling a book that "reveals secrets" (against the magicians code) and doing a few tricks is very different from giving the audience a taste of your magic for the sheer purpose of entertaining them.

I think this goes along loosely with what Brad Henderson re: "doing material" vs. reacting to the hosts.

But overall I think Josh did a good job handling himself on the show, and dealing with some of the challenges it presented, his book is very good too.

Best of luck to Josh on the next segment!

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Silly Walter » January 8th, 2009, 6:35 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:...

As for your comment about Strong Magic, I would take most of what you read in there with a grain of salt. It's a book for amateurs.


What book would you recommend for professionals like you and I?
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 8th, 2009, 7:12 pm

Very funny, Walter!

What I would recommend is avoiding tripe like Strong Magic and watching good magicians perform, either live or recorded. Then performing yourself and developing a personal style. It's not that difficult, it's not brain surgery, and you don't have to read crap about Alfred Hitchcock movies to do it.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Disparity1 » January 8th, 2009, 9:02 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Very funny, Walter!

What I would recommend is avoiding tripe like Strong Magic and watching good magicians perform, either live or recorded. Then performing yourself and developing a personal style. It's not that difficult, it's not brain surgery, and you don't have to read crap about Alfred Hitchcock movies to do it.


Now, wait a minute. You didn't say it was tripe and for amateurs while you were happily taking my check for it. I wouldn't have bought it had you properly informed me, instead of advertising it like it was one of the best things ever. Since you clearly misrepresented the book back then, can I have my damn money back now?

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Mark M Walsh » January 8th, 2009, 10:45 pm

I don't want to be responsible for derailing what was a good thread about Josh Jay's appearance on Good Morning Amemerica.

I am very surprised to hear that Richard Kaufman feels that Ortiz's book is "tripe" (especially since he published it) but, he is intitled to his oppinion. I brought up the general issue of "prestige" and would have expeceted a response relivant to that particular variable rather than a response that seems to be none other than a spring-board for negative criticism regarding Strong Magic and/or Darwin Ortiz.

Anyway Josh Jay is a class act and can't wait to see him again on T.V.

-Mark

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 8th, 2009, 11:40 pm

The only reason I published Strong Magic was because I wanted the "trick" book: Card Shark (it was a package deal). As it turned out, Card Shark--a very good book--sold only so-so, while Strong Magic sold well. Who could predict it?

Sorry, Disparity1, there are no refunds. All publishers, at one time or another, for contractual reasons or otherwise, publish books whose final product they are not happy with. Strong Magic might have been a good book, but it didn't turn out that way.

Many other people disagree with my assessment and they're very pleased with it. Many think it is a great book. For them, it was money well spent. If most people shared my opinion, the book would have sold poorly and lost money (and as the publisher, publishing a bad book, I would have paid the price--which was to get to publish Card Shark). I have published lousy books that have sold very well, and superb books that have sold poorly. You really can't tell what people are going to buy.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Disparity1 » January 8th, 2009, 11:55 pm

Hey, I didn't question your motives for publishing the book, just the fact that you sold it to us one way and now tell us that was all a lie.

Besides, you don't recognize ironic humor?

As for not being able to tell what people are going to buy, that's not true. Everyone knew Sexy Magic was going to stink.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby flynn » January 9th, 2009, 1:41 am

I guess disparity can't formulate his own opinions or thought for himself deciding wether the book was good or not. Somebody on a thread on the internet had to tell him. Just because someone does'nt like a certain product don't mean others do. Even if its the person pushing the product.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 9th, 2009, 11:00 am

I didn't know what anyone's opinion of Sexy Magic was going to be. I think Hodges is a great illustrator, and the original French edition is highly collectible. Perhaps my written instructions for the tricks were too literal for your taste.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby CraigMitchell » January 9th, 2009, 11:31 am

Richard, don't know if you've ever discussed it else where - but perhaps you could start a new post on Strong Magic and what aspects you didn't agree with ?

I think the readers of the forum appreciate your honesty ...

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Disparity1 » January 9th, 2009, 11:33 am

flynn wrote:I guess disparity can't formulate his own opinions or thought for himself deciding wether the book was good or not. Somebody on a thread on the internet had to tell him. Just because someone does'nt like a certain product don't mean others do. Even if its the person pushing the product.


I can and have, and thanks for being beside the point. If the subtle and dry humor in this situation flies over your head, try standing up.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Doug Brewer » January 9th, 2009, 12:00 pm

If I may, briefly, get back on topic about Josh Jay: I think Josh has handled himself greatly in these environments. This is a tough gig and there are no "re-takes" if you screw up.

Regarding getting nervous: I find that I get nervous in just about any new type of venue I haven't performed in. For example, I've performed in front of 1,000 people on stage (one of my largest crowds, and a venue I've done many times - that is, a stage) and not even had the least bit of shakes. No doubt, I'm focused, but not "nervous". This Christmas I performed in front of a large group of family members I hadn't seen in a long time. You wouldn't think it would be an issue, but I found myself actually getting nervous - like, shaky nerves. I couldn't believe it. 100's of strangers - no problem. Family - I shake. Go figure.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Ryan Matney » January 9th, 2009, 12:15 pm

That's understandable. At some level with family, you probably feel judged.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 9th, 2009, 12:17 pm

One day I'll write a long piece critiquing Strong Magic called "Weak Magic." Until then, I've said plenty.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Silly Walter » January 9th, 2009, 1:16 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:One day I'll write a long piece critiquing Strong Magic called "Weak Magic." Until then, I've said plenty.


Is it going to be called "The Magic Of Jamy Ian Swiss"?
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 9th, 2009, 1:28 pm

Tut, tut, Walter. That was silly ... even for a bear.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Disparity1 » January 9th, 2009, 2:16 pm

Ooh, ooh, a better title: Reversal of Fortune.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby David Acer » January 9th, 2009, 2:37 pm

I found Josh to be uniquely poised on his Today Show appearance, and that's something you can't learn from a magic book. I'm a fan, and his legion is growing.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Tom Frame » January 12th, 2009, 11:39 pm

Joe M. Turner wrote:FYI -- Josh announced via his Facebook status today that he will be on Good Morning America on Monday and "this time he ain't takin no [censored]."

There you have it!



I watched Good Morning America today and didn't see Josh. Does anyone know what happended? Perhaps he got bumped by the Golden Globe coverage?

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cerberus » January 13th, 2009, 12:25 am

If I understand his posts correctly, I think Mr. Kaufman has nailed it on the head:

1) Hosts of live TV shows are so comfortable in that environment, that they're going to act just like any other spectator.

2) Josh could have chosen better, less risky effects.

3) He's a young performer who made a mistake because he did not know how to handle the situation when it came up.

Additionally, the "Up The Sleeve" comment should have set off all kinds of alarms in his head-- saying "Frisk Me" actually encouraged the behaviour.

C

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » January 13th, 2009, 4:22 am

Cerberus wrote:3) He's a young performer who made a mistake because he did not know how to handle the situation when it came up.


I think you'll find Josh has had more 'real world' experience than many of the armchair pundits who inhabit magic forums.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 13th, 2009, 10:23 am

And so he may, however he does not have a lot of television experience.
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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cerberus » January 13th, 2009, 5:52 pm

Cugel wrote: I think you'll find Josh has had more 'real world' experience than many of the armchair pundits who inhabit magic forums.


Many? Yes.
All? No.

c

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » January 14th, 2009, 1:11 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:And so he may, however he does not have a lot of television experience.


Perhaps. Certainly compared to some.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » January 14th, 2009, 1:11 am

Cerberus wrote:
Cugel wrote: I think you'll find Josh has had more 'real world' experience than many of the armchair pundits who inhabit magic forums.


Many? Yes.
All? No.

c


Your comment is undoubtedly true.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cerberus » January 14th, 2009, 1:36 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:What I would recommend is avoiding tripe like Strong Magic and watching good magicians perform, either live or recorded. Then performing yourself and developing a personal style. It's not that difficult, it's not brain surgery, and you don't have to read crap about Alfred Hitchcock movies to do it.


This is confusing to me. You said you only published Strong Magic so you could get another book. Does that mean that you published, marketed and promoted what you thought was "Tripe"?

Because in order to do that, wouldn't you have to "pretend" it's a good book? And if that's what you did, isn't that dishonest?

Maybe I misunderstood....

c

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cugel » January 14th, 2009, 2:00 am

I'm with Richard on this. The last thing magic needs is a comprehensive text book on the techniques of showmanship, when you can watch Eugene Burger's Magical Voyages DVDs and see how it should be done.

Jokes aside, I couldn't care less whether Richard likes the books he publishes or even knows whether they are a work of genius or not. We owe him a huge debt for a legacy of great magic books, publisher savant or not.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cerberus » January 14th, 2009, 5:57 am

I am neither for or against Richard on this until I understand his reasoning on what he did..

c

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Don Knox » January 14th, 2009, 12:15 pm

Cerberus wrote:This is confusing to me. You said you only published Strong Magic so you could get another book. Does that mean that you published, marketed and promoted what you thought was "Tripe"?

Because in order to do that, wouldn't you have to "pretend" it's a good book? And if that's what you did, isn't that dishonest?

Maybe I misunderstood....



Consider that this is a very common practice in the publishing and entertainment industry and has gone on for many years and never been considered dishonest.

Well-known actors will use their audience-appeal to negotiate for a pet movie project in exchange for a performance in the latest episode of a movie series that the studio thinks will be a hit. The studio may not put the same amount of backing in the actor's pet project - but again - the studio is putting up the money and resources.

The same goes for publishing - many contracts have been signed for literally hundreds of years for authors to have a new novel published in exchange for another three book contract for a sequel of the same characters the author been writing about (and selling) for 20 years.

I don't think that is dishonest - it is just negotiation.

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Re: Josh Jay

Postby Cerberus » January 14th, 2009, 2:16 pm

Don Knox wrote:I don't think that is dishonest - it is just negotiation.


I understand. I don't agree, but I understand your opinion.

c


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