CLOSURE OF SAMTALKING

[Jonathan Townsend]

The very notion that the guy does not have a working email address, a phone number, a home address...

Anyway if you know who to ask now it's really a matter of asking in a way that promotes a dialog and some good will - right?

[opie]

Here 'tis: samtalkbruce@cox.net .........Bruce Kalver...

Good luck.......opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

Opie, that's not HIS email address, HIS phone number (home) or HIS address.

When you want to talk to someone - go direct.

[opie]

I have all three of the above, but I have never been able to communicate with him, except for a short conversation we had when he called me late one night and yelled at me....I responded in kind....

So, if you think you can help, do so. If not, let us call for somebody who might be able to reverse the illegal decision to close the SAMtalking web....

opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

Get to someone he respects and make your case.

The word "illegal" is not going to help too much at the start of your intended discussion IMHO.

Best of luck

[opie]

I guess I just don't know how to go about dealing with somebody who has a bit of power and uses it....


How is that? Would that be a good approach?.........hmmmmmmmmm

Maybe I should let somebody else chat with him....

opie

[opie]

PS:

Please allow me to add a Post Script to the last post:

I do not wish to make this issue personal with anyone. My mission here was/is clear. At the risk of repeating myself, let me reiterate the mission/goals and ask a few questions:

I want SAMtalking re-opened, with Neil Tobin as Moderator. This man is the most-capable moderator of any forum that I have been a part of...Sorry Richard, but you are trying to make a living, and Neil was not, and that makes all the difference.

Who are the members of the so-called Executive Committee of SAM? This is not a tough question; it could be answered by a team of knowledgeable first graders.

I want the so-called Executive Committee of SAM to come aboard and explain how they could illegally close SAMtalking, a project that was approved by the National Council and which could only be shut down, after a discussion and vote by the National Council. This is not a tough issue that cannot be addressed by some ivy-league members of the Council; I look forward to that, being a not-so-ivy-league grad of three different universities.

I want to know how and why this Executive Committee has the right to disregard the SAM Constitution and By Laws, and totally ignore the wishes of several hundred SAMtalking members, by shutting down an almost no-cost project in which those members enjoyed both posting and just reading. Is it because they cannot stand any hint of criticism that might be posted on an open Town-Hall forum? Easy answerYES or NO.

Why have at least two (that I know of) members of SAM been threatened with Ethics charges and expulsion from SAM by one or more members of this Executive Committee or their appointed watchdogs, simply because they have questioned the actions of at least one or two of the folks believed to be members of this phantom committee? I am personally aware of one and have been told of two more threats.

So, here is a short response to Matt, Jonathan, and anyone else who has questions about why a few of us are here to get some answers, regarding our rights to question things that we do not understand from our leadership. Frankly, I do not feel like jokes, but I do have a few management jokes that apply to this situation....I will not muddy the issues by posting them, unless someone insists that they might be good for a laugh or two....Please don't ask; they are almost too ironic and telling....

I, as an old retired Military Officer and College English teacher, know that I am not supposed to bring in new material at the conclusion of a little spiel, but I cannot help but conclude with the simple statement that SOMEBODY NEEDS TO RESPOND TO THE GENERAL MEMBERS OF SAM, WHEN THEY ASK SIMPLE QUESTIONS.

opie

[Dave Andrews]

And I thought only God was physically/telecommunically/e-mail'y' out of reach.
I've been reading all this thread and if this one man has all this power, but not the guts to respond, explain,discuss; something smells.
I'm not involved, not being a member, but it smells strange anyway. Consequently, I feel for you all.
Magic is about enjoyment, communication, and a whole bunch of other things - imposed elitism and superiority it is not about.
So, from someone who is not involved in this, the powers that be (Bruce Kalver?) get your finger out from wherever it is, and speak to people. After all, it is only a sign of respect.
One post a day, one post a week, it doesn't matter - answers are needed, obviously, from someone.
So, someone who is directly involved should give some answers.

Dave

[opie]

Dave,

Thank you....If you ever decide to become a SAM member, please allow me to sign your application........if I have not been thrown out for asking questions.......

opie

[mormonyoyoman]

The word I've received tells me that the Exec Committee consists of the Pres, VP, Secretary, & Treasurer. I've also been told that the National Council never approved SAMtalking in the first place, and that's why the Execs could wipe it out. Is this true?

I know - you'll tell me I could look it up. My issues of M-U-M, which would be my reference on these, are all in storage in Indiana somewhere.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet

[opie]

Let us let members of the National Council answer that question. I resigned from it in June.

Here is, once again, the web page, from the horse's mouth (so to speak):

http://74.125.45d%3D6b6d23ec96c06807a01 ... =firefox-a

It is not working any more....too bad...But, if you will look back at some posts above by our immediate Past President, Maria Ibanez, you can get the straight scoop...


opie

[Chris Aguilar]

Wow, 10 pages of this.

Opie, if you decide to stop futzing around demanding things of people who evidently don't want to talk to you, talk to me and I'll be more than happy to guide you in setting up a new forum that you completely control.

You'll need to purchase hosting first (around $5-10/month for a small/medium sized forum) and I'll be glad to donate my time to set that up for you and designate whoever you want as admin/moderator etc.

[opie]

Thanks Chris....I want what we had, nothing more, nothing less....a voice in what we do in the organization...

Man, I do appreciate the offer....If Neil needs help, which he probably does not, he may go for opening an ex-patriot SAMtalking web, but that is not something that he and I have discussed in depth. It was just a passing comment that neither of us took too seriously at the time...But you might want to talk to him for his opinion...

There are more than 2000 hits on this thread, so the word is getting out that there are some unhappy people out here...

opie

[opie]

PS: To Chris and other site owners/moderators, from whom I am getting offers of an open forum to state my case, thanks....As I said before, I am not on a slam quest; I just want SAMtalking back...


However, if you desire to contact the "Committee" members and ask them to write up their defenses relating to this matter, feel free to do so. I just love two-sided communications, when I am right....

opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

It's good to be right with yourself and not so good to insist on being right with others as they may prefer you be right by yourself.

[opie]

Being right is a subjective thing, isn't it? Of course it is. Thanks for playing...

opie

[opie]

Somebody just sent me this link to the page of SAMtalking which shows that it is a benefit of membership. Hope the link works...

http://tinyurl.com/5ju9qd

Don't you hate a "bait and switch" promise?

Many Assembly officers were down-right thrilled to have a medium of exchange of ideas between their members and the National Council. Here is an example of material regarding SAMtalking that went out shortly after SAMtalking opened up:

http://www.mystic13.com/home.html

opie

[Matthew Field]

Opie,

I'm sure you realize that SAMTalk (admittedly not SAMTalking)is still active -- I get an annoying email from them every day which I instantly delete.

Doesn't this fill the bill? Were you very active on SAMTalking? Lots o'posts?

I'm sure you realize that Bruce Kalver just took office and he might be a tad busy. Cut the guy some slack. He cares about the SAM and technology issues.

Matt Field

[opie]

It does not fill the bill, and does not explain why SAMtalking was illegally closed.

When SAMtalking is re-opened and a legitimate reason give for its closure, I will back away.

Here are a number of possible responses I could have given you...Pick a few:

http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_leadership.html

opie

[Matthew Field]

Thanks for the link, Opie.

Here's the one I pick:

Adlai Stevenson:
It's hard to lead a cavalry charge if you think you look funny on a horse.

Matt Field

[opie]

I kind of like that too, but it probably does not apply.

I was trying to figure out your avatar....You are hanging over a cliff that says, "DANGER". Would you care to share how that relates to a Herne Bay boy?

PS: Yes, I made many posts on SAMtalking and was really trying to get everybody involved in using it more for leadership and management activities.....

How would you feel if management announced that there would no longer be a Magic Circular?

opie

[Roger M.]

You've been successful at getting your point across opie, and many here are supportive of your efforts.

However, I think at some point you have to acknowledge that making your point over and over again on the Genii forum is not the best course of action.

I don't think any regular readers of this forum have any answers for the questions you're asking, and the folks you're needing to ask the questions of (SAM Board) obviously aren't visitors to this forum.

The record (in the form of this thread) is firmly established, and your next course of action needs to direct your obvious passion for this topic more directly at SAM as an organization, as opposed to a bunch of Genii forum regulars that are largely supportive of your statements and questions anyway.

A person less discreet than I might say something like, "we hear you and we agree with you, can you please stop now".

[opie]

Roger........

Thank you. There are some folks at conventions right now that I would like to hear from. They should state their opinions about this issue within the next day or so. After that, I'll have to agree with you that most magicians are probably supportive of my statements and questions, and I will shortly rest my case.

I do appreciate that the thread has been allowed to remain open, in the interest of free speech and to point out a big concern. I only ask for another day or two, because there should be some important information forthcoming from some folks who are in turn waiting for some data.

Thank you all for your patience and inputs, and, to those who have simply looked in and raised the Viewed number to way over 2000, I especially thank.

.....opie

[Merlina]

Greetings,

seems there have been quite a few posts since I was last on the forum. I'm just returning from a GREAT convention -- the Midwest Magic Jubilee, the talent was super, the camaraderie was terrific and the weekend was superb! More importantly, nobody missed their tech rehearsal cues and everything went off without a hitch. I've already registered Jay and myself for next year's convention.

Roger, thank you for pointing out that Opie has made his point and that making it over and over on the Genii forum may not necessarily be the best course of action. To be honest, I'm not sure there is a best course of action other than to just sit back and see what turn the events take.

The complaining and voicing of opinions has not been about SAMtalking, but rather about one of the benefits of membership being taken away from the members without them having a voice about it.

The situation has been worsened by the non-responsiveness of those who are the powers that be.

Is it a benefit of membership? Yes, SAMtalking was voted for at a National Council Meeting and received the blessings of both the Legal Advisor and the Ethics Advisors. The closing of it by an "executive committee" still is of concern since this was a program voted for by the National Council, and therefore it would take a vote from the Council to remove it.

It will be interesting to see, as I am sure so many will keep their eye on this and other situations this year, what happens with SAMtalking. Will it be re-opened? Will it be what it was meant to be, an open forum where members could express themselves freely and exchange ideas, with freedom of expression? Will Neil Tobin be assigned as moderator since he did such an outstanding job before? Or will it be reopened much as the other forum of the society where there is moderation and with a new moderator?

Only time will tell. . .

Keep a dream in the making for you create your tomorrows by what you dream today

Maria Ibanez

[opie]

Well, I guess I can take a break....

Please EVERYBODY who has an interest our organization, send a note to each other and to the so-called Executive Committee, even if it might bounce, and let all members know that the leadership is not leading but pushing things that are not in the best interests of the membership.......

Pushing things under the rug is not sanitary....

HOWEVER, in the immortal words of the California Governor, "I'll be back......if a voice is needed."

opie

[opie]

Hey, I am still on break, but I thought I would share some things I have been missing.

Some of the things I miss about SAMtalking are the videos which illustrated the tricks explained in the Asianastonish articles of M-U-M. Imagine how happy I was to find them on You Tube. Here are four of them:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9iWyi0o2D8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbVJbFe9 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6kWKgPulpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrcMsqiw ... re=related

opie

[opie]

Well, it has been a while now since the "Committee" promised some word about the Closure of SAMtalking. There is no word yet.

How long does it take to click a button that will re-open something that was illegally closed?

How much faith are we supposed to place in a "leadership" that would do that to its members?

opie

[Jeffrey Korst]

Opie-
I may regret asking, but in all seriousness, in what way is the closure an illegal act?

Jeffrey

[opie]

The National SAM is governed by the National Council, which consists of more than just a few of the elected officers. Yet a few officers, who call themselves the Executive Committee closed SAMtalking, a forum which was approved by the National Council.

The CLOSURE of SAMtalking, since it WAS created and approved by the National Council, would HAVE TO BE APPROVED by the National Council. Such approvals require discussion and a vote at a Council meeting before being acted upon. No discussion was done at the National Council meeting in Louisville, but the SAMtalking forum was simply shut down by new incoming officers who were installed at the convention. To add insult to injury, the new group of officers shut down the web immediately while the convention was still going on.

A little group in an organization cannot be allowed to destroy something which has been set up Constitutionally by the supreme governing power. That is illegal, yet that is what has been done. To compound the problem, the little group refuses to respond to our inquiries, except to send an auto email which says that they are considering the problem. That e mail is signed the committee.

Maria Ibanez, the immediate Past President, has explained how even getting the new officers to explain their actions has become an issue, and I quote, in part, her post from above:

QUOTE: Greetings and good morning,

Jack, you are posing an interesting question... "Or do the powers that be just don't want to hear and consider it dead?"

The fact is that none of the officers have responded either here or on the Magic Cafe although both the President Elect and the 1st Vice President have had other posts on that forum in the past 3 days which means that they are in fact reading the forum.

There was a mass e-mail to all subscribers of SAMtalking letting them know that it was being shut down and providing a gmail address for people to write to, the only problem is that all mail going there is being returned to the senders. I, myself, tried to copy them on an email received from a concerned member along with my response to him. I've copied at the bottom of this e-mail the "bounce of e-mail" which I received when sending the "Executive Officers" a copy of the correspondence.

One of the questions that has been raised to me, by the many members who have contacted me, is since SAMtalking was, as is SAMtalk and many other things, a benefit of membership and since the SAM already has a website and server, why is the National President using a free address of gmail which is a google address, for official correspondence with the concerns of shutting down a newsgroup of the Society would be?

Several have asked exactly what executive officers are since the governing of the Society is by constition and by-laws up to the National Council?

As the immediate past president, those of you who have written and phoned feel that I have the answers; I must apologize because I do not. I've been on the board first as an RVP then up the chairs for at least 8 or 9 years now, and never heard of the "executive officers" (assuming this is the President, Pres-elect, 1st VP and 2nd VP. Making a decision on this type without going to the National Council for approval since it was the National Council who originally passed and voted on the approval of the forum and since it is the National Council that is the governing body of the Society is something I've never heard of.

Who is the National Council? It is comprised of the officers - President, President elect, 1st VP, 2nd VP, Past National Presidents, Secretary, Treasurer, RVPs....in other words, those who were elected to office by the membership.

Some have expressed a concern about not receiving a reply from the "powers that be"....I again apologize as I cannot speak as to why other than the address provided in the e-mail sent by Most Illustrious President Bruce Kalver, signed on behalf of the Executive Officers, is an address which has correspondence bounce back from.

Neil Tobin has provided above a list of whom to contact in addition to the address provided by the e-mail blast, here is the list Neil provided once again with the exception that I've added the name of the individual whose e-mail address it is in parenthesis next to the it.

PRESIDENT AND COUNCIL MEMBERS
samexecutiveofficers@gmail.com (???)
samtalkbruce@cox.net (Bruce Kalver)
presidentelect@magicsam.com (Mike Miller)
firstvp@magicsam.com (Mark Weidhaas)
secondvp@magicsam.com (Vinny Grosso)
treasurer@magicsam.com (Mary Ann Blowers)
secretary@magicsam.com (Marlene Clark)
samadministrator@magicsam.com (Manon Rodriguez)
dean@magicsam.com (George Schindler)
lifemembers@aol.com (Clem Kinnicutt)
bravesjann@comcast.net (Jann Goodsell)

IMMEDIATE PAST NATIONAL PRESIDENT
merlina17@aol.com (Maria Ibanez)

ETHICS AND LEGAL
fkaps@aol.com (Marc de Sousa)
kapsmagic@verizon.net (Warren Kaps)
stuarts1031@erols.com (Stuart Schneider)

My best to everyone and always remember to keep a dream in the making.

Maria Ibanez

. . .

END QUOTE

So..........ILLEGAL?????........You can bet your other benefits that it is an illegal action...In fact, if everyone remains silent and allows that committee to get away with the closure of SAMtalking, they are betting any other benefits that the committee elects to discontinue.

opie

[mrgoat]

Is a forum that had one visitor a day STILL being talked about?

Just imagine if all the energy spent bitching about an unused forum was used to - say - post on the forum initially! Maybe it would still be going.

[opie]

There was more than one post per day.....The post count of 400 made way back should have read 1400......but the real count should be data that we do not have--how many people looked in on the web. For example, there have been more than 3000 hits on this thread, which indicates that a lot of people are interested in the topic.

The "bitching" is about abuse of power and the hope that it will stop....

Thank you for playing and helping to keep this thread up front....

opie

[mrgoat]

Simple. Set up your own forum. Invite all the people you know. Run it as you wish.

Vbulletin is widely regarded as the best forum software.

Problem solved.

[opie]

No, then we would have a separate forum from our beloved SAM and further lose member control over the organization.

We are talking member rights here, sort of like our folks did in 1776......

opie

[mrgoat]

No, then we would have a separate forum from our beloved SAM

Well currently there is no SAM one. So what would your great www.notSAMtalking.com be separate from?

[opie]

Sad but true...

opie

"We fired our cannon till the barrel melted down, so we grabbed an alligator and we fired another round....."

[Adrian Kuiper]

opie

"We fired our cannon till the barrel melted down, so we grabbed an alligator and we fired another round....."

Dontcha just love those Intellectual songs!!! <grin>

(One of my favorites)

Adrian

[opie]

tsk tsk.........

opie

[Jim Roberts]

What amazes me is the opposition to even raising the question of, "why?". If you regard what those who are questioning the action as a waste of time, well it's our time to waste. Since those complaining are dues paying members of SAM they are well within their rights to question that action. If SAMTalking never returns I will probably not sleep any worse at night. However, the membership of any organization has every right to expect transparent governance on the part of its leadership. Dismissing honest reasonable questions as "unsolicited tripe", or threatening ethics charges does not fulfill that duty of leadership. I expect things to be shrouded in mystery in a magic performance, not from organizational leadership.

[opie]

Well, we finally have what is posted as the total National Council elected officers and appointed Chairs, etc. I don't think it is a secret, so here is the list, as posted on the SAM web:

Officers

* Dean of American Magicians- George Schindler
* National President - Bruce Kalver
* National President Elect - Mike Miller
* National First Vice President - Mark Weidhaas
* National Second Vice President - Vinny Grosso
* National Treasurer - Mary Ann Blowers
* Treasurer Emeritus - John F. Connelly
* National Secretary - Marlene Clark
* Secretary Emeritus - Joyce Zachary jezacharys@msn.com
* National Administrator - Manon Rodriguez

Past National Presidents

* Past National President - Maria Ibanez, 2007-2008
* Past National President - Andy Dallas, 2006-2007
* Past National President - Richard Dooley, 2005-2006
* Past National President - John Apperson, 2004-2005
* Past National President - Jay Gorham, 2003-2004
* Past National President - Ed Thomas, 2002-2003
* Past National President - Warren Kaps, 2001-2002
* Past National President - Jann Goodsell, 2000-2001
* Past National President - Harry Monti, 1999-2000
* Past National President - Gary Hughes, 1998-1999
* Past National President - Loren Lind, 1997-1998
* Past National President - Craig R. Dickson, 1996-1997
* Past National President - Don Oltz, 1995-1996
* Past National President - Dan Garrett, 1994-1995
* Past National President - Dan Rodriguez, 1993-1994
* Past National President - George Schindler, 1992-1993
* Past National President - Michael Douglass, 1991-1992
* Past National President - Father Cyprian Murray, 1989-1990
* Past National President - Robert A. Steiner, 1988-1989
* Past National President - William E. Andrews, 1987-1988
* Past National President - David R. Goodsell, 1986-1987
* Past National President - Cesareo Pelaez, 1985-1986
* Past National President - Hank Moorehouse, 1981-1982
* Past National President - Frank Dailey, 1983-1984
* Past National President - Jim Zachary, 1980-1981
* Past National President - Roy Snyder, 1978-1979
* Past National President - Roy Kupsinel, 1975-1976
* Past National President - Richard (Dick) Gustafson, 1973-1974
* Past National President - Brad Jacobs, 1970-1971

Chairs, Moderators, Coordinators:

* Magic Center President - Phil Milstead
* Magic Center Liason - Dan Rodriguez
* Hall of Fame President - John Engman
* Parliamentarian - Dick Blowers
* National Deputy - Deaf Community - Simon J. Carmel
* SAMTalk - Online Newsgroup Moderator - Vinny Grosso
* New Assembly Promotion - Loren Lind
* Special Assemblies Co-Chair- Harry Monti
* Special Assemblies Co-Chair- Thomas W. Stone
* Special Assemblies Co-Chair- Trudi Monti
* Assembly Visit Coordinator- Thomas Gentile
* Ethics Chair - Marc DeSouza
* FISM Liason - Brad Jacobs
* Good and Welfare - Fred Schlossauer
* SYM Director - Jann Goodsell
* Young Members Program Director - Jann Goodsell
* Houdini Hospital Fund - George Schindler
* Houdini Historical Advisor - Frank Dailey
* S.A.M. Historical Advisor - Frank Dailey
* Electronic Archives - David Xanatos
* Gift & Insignia - Joe Goode
* Life Membership Chairman - Clem Kinnicutt
* Occult Investigation Committee- Andy Dallas
* Public Relations and Publicity - George Schindler
* New Assembly Promotion - Loren Lind
* Honorary Membership Committee Chair - Ray Goulet
* Membership Development Chair - Mark Weidhaas
* Membership Service Awards - Jean Kinnicutt
* National Magic Week Chair - Vinny Grosso
* National Magic Week Registrar - Barbara Dallas
* Elections Chair - Ed Thomas
* Freedom From Drugs Program Chair - Robert A. Steiner
* Young Member Program, National Director - Jann Goodsell

Convention Related Positions

* Convention Dealer Chairman - Rob Stewart
* National Convention Contests - Paul Critelli
* Convention Registrar - Anne and Mark Weidhaas
* Convention Show Producer - R.G. Smith
* Convention Publicity - George Schindler
* Convention Souvenier Program- David Goodsell
* Convention Treasurer - Rich Dooley
* Conference Budget - Rich Dooley
* Convention Talent Coordinator - R. G. Smith
* Convention Young Members - Jann Goodsell
* SYM Convention Activities- Jann Goodsell
* Convention Young Member Show Producer - Stars of Tommorrow - Hope Anderson

Other Important Functionaries

* M.U.M. Editor - John C. Moehring
* MUM Spotlight Program - Barbara Dallas
* M-U-M Editor Emeritus - David Goodsell
* SYMbol Editor - Michael Raymer
* Film and Tape Library - Ken Grady
* Film and Tape Library Emeritus- Richard A. Petrashek
* Ambassador of Magic- Lance Burton
* Ambassador of Magic- David Copperfield
* Ambassador of Magic- Bradley Jacobs
* National Council Archivist/Interview Coordinator - Phil Milstead
* Veteran's Program - Vinny Grosso
* National Historian - Michael Douglass
* Chaplin - Father Cyprian Murray
* Budget Chairman - Maryann Blowers
* Investment Committee Chairman - Richard Dooley
* Insurance Chairman - Hull Youngblood
* Magic Endowment Fund Chair- Bradley Jacobs
* Legal Counsel - Stuart Schneider, Esq.
* Webmaster - David Xanatos

Yep, I am no longer on there........opie

[Ray Banks]

Sad but true...

opie

"We fired our cannon till the barrel melted down, so we grabbed an alligator and we fired another round....."

You left out the "powdered its behind" part