CLOSURE OF SAMTALKING

[opie]

ScrumMage said: "I do hope they are more forthcoming in the future. "

....or better yet NOW!

Over at SAMtalk, there is a discussion related to this topic regarding Human Nature.

Human nature is the fundamental nature and substance of humans, and as such is extremely PERSONAL. This fundamental truth is very evident when somebody says, Well, it's not personal. In those instances, one can be fairly certain that the fundamental nature and substance of the individuals are tossing up smoke and mirrors. We, as magicians, are pretty well trained so that, when we see smoke and mirrors, we know there is some concealed secret.

Thanks to Mandy and Bob for boiling this topic down to the simple explanation of Human Nature...It should help us all get a better understanding of what is happening.



opie

[Richard Kaufman]

I'm trying to figure out why we have a five page thread on this in the Genii Forum if only 1 or two people a day actually bothered to utilize this. Of course they shut it down! If no one comes to the party, you close the door.

It might not have been costing them anything, but anything on the Internet needs to be maintained--and that's a pain in the ass.

[Necromancer]

Hi Richard,

Three points:

1. In a democratic organization, that decision-making power might not rightfully belong to a single individual.

2. Postings do not equal utilization. The number of people who utilized the forum as readers of postings or as senders of PMs to other members are not included in that figure. And who's to say those aren't equally valid uses for the mechanism?

3. I have never considered the maintenance of SAMtalking.com a pain. It has been an honor.

Sincerely,
Neil

Neil Tobin
2007-8 Administrator of SAMtalking.com
President, Chicago Assembly No. 3
Society of American Magicians

[CardioloJest]

Yes, opie--Human nature is the fundamental nature and substance of humans, and as such is extremely PERSONAL.

For a look at your personal human nature, and how your mind works, there are many interesting personality tests you can take at this new WebSite: http://youniverse.com/ -- a LOT of fun, too!

[opie]

Jest....I know; I am an old Counselor and English teacher....

Thanks for the link...One of my old hobbies was collecting psychological tests and measurements....Maybe that is why I expect more from elected officials....

opie

[Magic Newswire]

If it helps calm the storm, I have been told that it is not closed, but rather is on hiatus while how best to utilize the resource can be explored. Expect an interview with parties involved in the near future..

[opie]

Dodd,

What that translates to is: The "Committee" will present the best way to utilize the site at the next quarterly Council Meeting (November???)....

Since the Council has already voted to have the site, they should not have closed it until the Council votes to close it....

I do know about what I speak.....

opie (old Council Member)....

[CardioloJest]

"Maybe that is why I expect more from elected officials..."

opie -- maybe you'll get more from elected officials if you show them all the $$$ tricks in your repertoire --you know,of course, they WILL keep the $$$.

[opie]

I don't have any $$$ tricks in my repertoire ....all of mine are $ tricks....hehe.........

..keep on playing......opie

[Magic Newswire]

Just sharing what I have been told. Don't shoot the messenger...
;-)

[opie]

Hey Man....no shots being fired from this end....I hope you get the truth....and print it....Thanks for that....

opie (old military man who has read The Art of War)

(Psychic sound: Alright you guys! Who the hell is telling Opie what we are talking about?)

[Merlina]

Greetings, thank you all for your posts and comments with regards to the closing of SAMtalking.

This morning's digest of SAMtalk has a post by Bruce Kalver stating that he is stepping down for a year while he serves as National President. He has appointed Vinny Grosso to serve as moderator in his stead for a year.

While Vinny is, to quote Mr. Kalver, a "computer geek" and uses a Mac, I am saddened that Neil Tobin was not considered for the position since he had served as co-moderator with Mr. Kalver on SAMtalk just as Mr. Kalver had served as co-moderator on SAMtalking.

I echo the voice of those who say that Neil did an admirable job for a year and can only hope that he will moderate a newsgroup in the future.

Maria Ibanez

[opie]

Maria,

Is there any way that we can get some idea of just when the "committee" plans to re-open SAMtalking?

I simply do not place any faith in an email that says the committee is considering whatever?????????? and which is simply signed, "The Committee"...

That is not the way elected officials are supposed to respond to members...

opie

[opie]

Well, well....The word over at SAMtalk (not SAMtalking, which is still closed down) is:

"(Message archives are not currently available)

Gee, that's what happened at SAMtalking, when it was closed down.

I hope this "Slam bam, closed down" management system is not a prelude for the next year's "leadership" by the new "Executive Committee", whatever that is...(we still have not been told who that is)...

Hey, I just want some simple answers to easy questions, but it looks like they are not forthcoming.

(WELL, THANK GOODNESS!!! IT IS BACK OPEN)...

opie

[Merlina]

Greetings, my guess would be that you went to yahoogroups to try to read the 3 or 4 messages that are seen which will be in the digest tomorrow morning. Getting that message is often times a temporary glitch with Yahoo and is quite common, in fact sometimes it has been down a day or two.

I also hope we get SAMtalking back although I am not sure what is going on with that, especially in view of the deafening round of silence by the elected officers in responding to the questions being asked by the membership.

I received today's digest of SAMtalk and read, all the way at the bottom that SAMtalk is moderated by a team of S.A.M. Executives: Andy Dallas, Ed Thomas, and Hull Youngblood. The team is headed by Vinny Grosso. The caption at the bottom also states that address changes and problems should be sent to: SAMtalkBruce@cox.net, so I can only surmise that Vinny is serving as "Chairman" of the committee but that moderation is still being overseen and that Bruce is still involved.

Pre-moderation and the limiting of the number of messages a day is one of the things that I didn't particularly like about SAMtalk but preferred about SAMtalking. I also liked the fact that it was in real time and messages went up as soon as you hit send. Neil was a non-biased, impartial and very fair moderator and it is a shame that the newsgroup was shut down, and that Neil who had served as co-chair of SAMtalk as Bruce had served as Co-chair of SAMtalking was not considered for the moderator's position -- especially in light of the fact that the members love him and the work he did for SAMtalking. Hard working? I can not think of any member who is more hard working on last year's appointment list. I can only hope that he will agree to moderate another magic forum in the future.

Keep a dream in the making - remember you create your tomorrows by what you dream today.

Maria Ibanez

[opie]

Thanks Maria...

I should have figured that one out myself....

..."deafening round of silence by the elected officers " I like that...

opie

[opie]

Well, it has been a couple of days, but there is still no response from the "committee", despite the fact that there have been more than 1400 views of this topic. One would think that those folks would ask somebody directly, rather than accept an automatic-response message from somebody called the "committee"...

Here is one response over at the Cafe to the "mishandling of the SAMtalking affair" and to the silence: (used with permission) :

QUOTE FROM MAGIC CAFE:

Then again, the current mishandling of the SAMtalking affair and the appointment of officers to Too Many Things At Once has many of us questioning whether we want to stay with S.A.M. If we'd chosen a Lifetime Membership, we'd be locked in - and stuck with a S.A.M. which might seem to no longer be concerned with us little people

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet (END QUOTE)

Thank you Chet....I hope you don't decide to leave SAM, but you do make a good point or two...

opie

[Hugh Castell]

As a dues paying, card carrying member of SAM I am concerned that SAMtalking was summarily closed and even more concerned that there has been no clarifying communication from any of the current officers.To broaden this thread a bit, this high handed action by the "executive committee" makes me question if I will renew my membership. I had already started to question the "benefits of membership" when I saw the dues had gone up to $65 a year. I am beginning to doubt, in this internet age where there is amazing access to everything related to magic, that there is any real benefit to SAM membership. I mean SAMtalking couldn't hold a candle to The Genii Forum, MUM is a pale imitation of Genni and the reviews I have read of recent SAM conventions suggest there are many yearly conventions that are better than SAM's. Come to think of it, the only thing I would miss if I was not a member would be the fellowship of our monthly assembly meeting. So a bigger question then the fate of SAMtalking, is SAM even relevant today when it offers nothing that is not readily available elsewhere in a better, cheaper or even free version?

Hugh

[Jim Roberts]

I think this year's retention rate is going to be very interesting to follow.
Jim

[opie]

Hey Scrum,

Let us not blame SAM for a few management glitches. They are always going to happen, sometimes accidentally. Imagine my surprise yesterday, when I received a SAM dues notice that showed my membership expires on 1 September 08; that's four weeks away.

Well, I checked my dues card, and it showed an expiration of 0209. Then I looked at my checkbook, and, sure enough, I paid my dues on 7 January 08. Gee, there must have been some sort of a computer glitch.

I called the National Administrator, and, between us, we could not figure out how the glitch happened, but she said she would take care of it. Minon is a nice lady and is working hard to keep up with SAM business.

So, you see, Scrum? Glitches can happen........I just hope I don't miss any issues of M-U-M, because of this glitch.

I do love the magazine and the organization, despite a few glitches.

opie

[Merlina]

Greetings,

thank you Opie for pointing out that the SAM is bigger than any one individual.

Thank you also for pointing out that Manon is a hard worker and that she is trying to get all the files updated and organized.

Keep a dream in the making

Maria Ibanez

[mormonyoyoman]

The closing of SAMtalking probably wouldn't have caused quite the fuss if there had been any prior notice. Or if members had been petitioned for their opinions. As it is, I greatly fear that many S.A.M. members, feeling disenfranchised, will "vote with their feet" when it comes time to renew membership.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet (forgot to add my signature)

[opie]

Come on Chet....Let us not blame SAM for the actions of a few misguided officers.

I know you have some questions about how members can voice their concerns. How about listing your questions here, and let us see if our elected officials respond. If they don't it will speak volumes about their leadership.

I would suggest that you contact your Regional Vice President, but I notice that the officers who have actually been elected by Assembly members are not listed on the SAM Nation web; only these "executives"??? are listed:

* Dean of American Magicians George Schindler
* National President Bruce Kalver
* National President Elect Mike Miller
* National First Vice President Mark Weidhaas
* National Second Vice President Vinny Grosso
* National Treasurer Mary Ann Blowers
* National Secretary Marlene Clark
* National Administrator Manon Rodriguez
* M.U.M. Editor John C. Moehring
* Film and Tape Library Ken Grady
* Convention Registrar Anne and Mark Weidhaas
* SYM Director Jann Goodsell
* Life Membership Clem Kinnicutt
* Public Relations and Publicity George Schindler
* Webmaster David Xanatos

Before you ask, please read the Constitution and By Laws of SAM, so that you will know how the system is supposed to work...I think you can access it here:

http://www.magicsam.com/admin.asp

opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

Come on Chet....Let us not blame SAM for the actions of a few misguided officers. ...opie

Is the forum still down? Remember when our host suddenly closed the genii BBS without notice - and the HUGE flight over to the magiccafe?

Quaint quickly becomes irrelevant in the twenty first century when it does not maintain good communication with its community.

Do we really want to get relegated to trivia?
Sam - the green eggs and ham guy?
IBM - the folks who used to make typewriters?

[mormonyoyoman]

Jonathan: Yep, the forum is still down. The earliest it MIGHT re-open would be in October or November. I guess the concern is that if one benefit could be abruptly taken away, what else might be taken?

Opie: The Regional VPs are there -- They're in a drop-down search menu on the same page as the assembly locator.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet

[Merlina]

Greetings Mr. Townsend,

to reply to your question, yes, the forum is still down.

The biggest part of the questions being raised are because it was closed at the end of the combined I.B.M./S.A.M. Convention and although the S.A.M. National Council was convened in Louisville, they were not consulted with regards to the closing.

The only words, during the National Council Meeting were by Most Illustrious National President, Bruce Kalver, who addressed Neil Tobin, SAMtalking Moderator, and told him "we'll talk". No talk took place and the forum was then shut down.

There has been no response from any of the "Executive Committee" which signed the letter. E-mails addressed to the g-mail address that was provided in the blast mail that went out have bounced back as undeliverable.

The loss of a benefit of membership, which SAMtalking had quickly become, is terrible.

Keep a dream in the making for we create our tomorrows by what we dream today.

Maria Ibanez
Past National President
Society of American Magicians

[opie]

Jonathan,

If trivia will help get SAMtalking back open, after its illegal closure, by all means, let us do it...

opie

[opie]

"Opie: The Regional VPs are there -- They're in a drop-down search menu on the same page as the assembly locator." Chet

Cool, but I wonder why they are not listed with the other ELECTED officers....I would think that all ELECTED officers would be listed with the National Council on line list...

....This is very strange..........

opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

Opie,

People make mistakes - and pressing the button to shut down something folks are enjoying might have been a mistake.

It's not pressing that restart button to bring it back and open a dialog about what's going on that I find awkward.

I'm all for preserving our history, honoring our elders and making our published knowledge available to those who will be left to imagine what the world was like before the internet and before we modeling/graphic language to teach our findings or when social taboo was a useful component of attention management.

But here we are - ever so slowly getting some resources into transmittable form and not doing too well at communicating with each other.

So how many of these SAD muckymucks does it take to say oops and get the dialog started again? Maybe if we all do the Raccoon salute the great waterbufalo will open the magic computer thingie again?

Please (yes - that's the secret word - hope you'll forgive the exposure)

Jon

[opie]

Thank you Jonathan...

I stand before all and salute the elected and appointed members of the National Council and, with a loud military-type voice, exclaim,

PLEASE!!! RE-OPEN OUR BELOVED SAMTALKING WEB AND ALLOW US TO RESUME OUR INTERNAL COMMUNICATIONS, UNDER THE CAPABLE LEADERSHIP OF MODERATOR NEIL TOBIN. THIS IS UTTERED MOST HUMBLY AND RESPECTFULLY,

Opie R. Houston, Past Regional Vice President, The Society of American Magicians

[Mark Paulson]

I hope they reconsider this closure. Whoever 'they' are, I think SAMTalking was an asset for the organization. It would have been nice to have had a little warning. What's next? Only time will tell.

[Matthew Field]

They got ONE POST A DAY on the site.

Jeez. Give it a rest.

Matt Field
SAM Member

[opie]

Actually, Neil had a typo in his post above. There were more than 1400 actual posts, instead of 400. That does not include the number of members who just came on to read.

But, even if there were only one member per day looking in, it would, for that member fulfill the promise of the forum, where he or she could drop in and browse.

At virtually no cost to SAM, the forum was a success, in that it was a place where we could visit and exchange ideas in REAL TIME. Now, we have been deprived of that benefit.

My quest is NOT PERSONAL.......It is an effort to re-open the forum and to put out the message that some of us loyal SAM members will not stand for too much diddling with our member rights.

On a side note, it would be nice if ALL Council members were shown plainly on the SAM web. The ELECTED Regional Vice Presidents are hidden in a menu, and the Past Presidents are not there any more for contact and consultation. (Why else would they have a lifetime vote on the Council?)...Anyway, it is startling not to see that which is important to a democratic organization.

opie

[opie]

PS: Here was the promise:

http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:HZj ... =firefox-a

And here is what we got.........Shut down without the vote of the National Council or even any warning to members who were enjoying the family atmosphere on the forum...

opie (IT'S NOT PERSONAL......REALLY!!!!!)

[opie]

Jonathan, Jonathan,

What do we, the general members of SAM, do now?

When we ask, Please, humbly and respectfully, it gets us only silence from those elected to protect and defend the Constitution and By Laws of our beloved SAM.

Constitutions and By Laws are written to protect the members of the group from the governing bodies, but, by this governing body's silence, I have some problems. Have you ever read the SAM Constitution and By Laws. Most of one of them deals with how to eject a member who does not fit in with the leadership's idea of Unity. Read for yourself:

http://www.magicsam.com/admin.asp

I just resigned as the National Council Chair of Publications Review Committee. Well, to be totally open about the resignation, I probably would not have been re-appointed by the new leadership anyway.... In my final report to the July Council meeting in Louisville, I made a couple of suggestions that will probably be ignored. SAM members can read my report in the Blue Book at:

http://www.magicsam.com/sam/index.asp

So Jonathan, do you (or anyone else in SAM) have any suggestions about how to get the National Council responsive to our members? It appears that the problems may be more serious than just the phobia against a forum that might criticize the leadership.

I will say this up front: This discussion would be best done on our own private SAMtalking web....but, alas, the powers that be have pushed us to this public forum......

opie

[mormonyoyoman]

Matt, the concern isn't how many posts were made per day (There was a large number of lurkers who kept hitting the site.) but whether it is good or bad to take away an inexpensive benefit with no prior notice, nor any input from membership.

If one benefit can be taken away without reason, so can any other.

It is by small degrees that freedoms are lost. There is a wonderful quote from Pastor Martin Niemoller: "When (they) came for the Communists, I did nothing, because I was not a Communist. When they came for the Social Democrats, I did nothing, because I wasn't a Social Democrat. When they came for the trade unionists, I did nothing because I was not a trade unionist. When they came for the Jews, I did nothing because I was not a Jew.

"And when they came for me, there was no one left to protest."

[opie]

Hooah.........

opie

[Matthew Field]

Mormonyoyoman -- spewing forth the Niemoller quote for something like this is most inappropriate. The SAM is not a democracy -- it's a society whose leaders, elected, make the decisions. You are free to voice your objections to those leaders and vote for others (or run yourself!) next time around.

There is an SAM section of the Magic Cafe if you want to reach other members. I'm a member of the SAM and never went on SAMtalking.

The SAM leaders have to decide how to apportion their resources. They don't do this by asking members' opinions or having them vote on every decision. To do so would make the organization grind to a halt.

Write to the leaders, to Bruce Kalver, the new president, and ask for the reason you so deeply desire.

One post a day! Yikes!!

Matt Field

[Jonathan Townsend]

... but when they took away the sweet&low and left us only splenda I knew our days were numbered - next thing you know we won't be able to smoke at the office and then...

Humor aside, who specifically is in charge of the SAM forum and how can one address the issue directly rather than going out to this (genii) BBS to make a public spectacle?

[opie]

Yeaaaaa............Jonathan, maybe you can get Most Illustrious Bruce Kalver, President, The Society of American Magicians, to come on here and explain why he closed SAMtalking, without addressing it at a Council Meeting and without even consulting the web Moderator, Neil Tobin, before shutting it down....

Good luck.....opie