Attention Magic Castle Members

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 25th, 2004, 3:33 pm

Ms. Diamond, I have never met you, and I don't mean to be rude either but...

Why is it that you have a book written for every one-line-comment to other posts?

BTW I heard all of the superfluous on the BoD were re-elected... what a suprise...

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 25th, 2004, 3:35 pm

oh... and please hold off on picking apart my post, one line at a time, with long paragraphs of useless information that I won't read...

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Dustin Stinett » February 25th, 2004, 7:21 pm

The issues involved with this topic are divisive enough without resorting to dissecting how other members choose to share their thoughts on the matter. Several days ago Kym Diamond chose to ask you to stay away from a particular content within this thread, which of course was the wrong thing to do. You have elected to criticize Kyms style: By the power vested in me as banana #3 of these forums, I declare you even. Lets please try to stay on topic and not add to the size of this thread with posts unrelated to the actual subject.

Thanks,
Dustin

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 25th, 2004, 9:01 pm

Dustin is now officially the No.1 banana here at the Forum. The rest of us take a backseat.
And would someone please tell me who the hell is Kym Diamond--a man or a woman, and where did he/she come from? Never heard the name mentioned in any of my visits to L.A. and the Magic Castle. Has anyone actually met this person?
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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 25th, 2004, 9:31 pm

Kym is a very nice lady, a magician, and a member of both the Magic Castle and this forum.

I think she has as much right to spirited, opinionated and long-winded posts on this topic as anyone.

I'm afraid I have been guilty of the same thing.

At least she has bothered to join the organization that she has so vigorously sought to protect.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 25th, 2004, 10:41 pm

Originally posted by Kym Diamond:
...The discussion was on how to present and word the resolution, and, whether or not that resolution should be made. In the middle of that discussion and the desire to draw it to a vote, the CPLLC crew interjected they wanted a moment to submit facts on their stance. Clearly, "views on their stance" is in no way related to whether or not the resolution is worded correctly, whether or not the resolution was made....
The resolution was on whether to support Milt no matter what. CPLLC's approach and views are pertinent in the extreme to that question.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 25th, 2004, 10:52 pm

DAVID - Then, on that matter, we can agree to disagree.

All the best -

Kym

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 25th, 2004, 11:02 pm

Whit: Aw, shucks. Thanks much. (blush)

Richard - Well now, who the dickens am I? I am, as Whit stated, a magicienne and a member of the AMA for six years running. I was working thematic stand up routines for several years, nothing major and nowhere that gets a name in the known bracket. Leastwises, not yet. Right now I am somewhat "non-performing status" due to lack of a working vehicle...hope to get that remedied and back out in the mix soon. It has taken me out of performing for FAR too long.

I have been low-key and in the shadows (for the most part, not one who was heavy on socializing and getting involved in the AMA activities at the clubhouse, primarily for the matter of not having a car.) This situation arose, hit far too close to my heart and home with the organization I am proud of, and, brought me out of the woodwork.

There are many changes happening on my homefront, and I hope to soon be more active at the clubhouse than before. There are many things about being there and being a functioning part of that embodiment that have worth.

There's a lot more I could tell you - but, that would take up another soapbox and space here that is better saved for someone else's dime. ;)

But, yes, I am quite real and alive and on the planet (as Whit pointed out...) so y'all don't have to worry if I am merely some figment of a creative mind sent here to belabor you. ;)

All the best for a great day and time -

Kym

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 26th, 2004, 10:26 am

Okey-dokey!
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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 27th, 2004, 12:54 pm

This is my final post. I don't see any use in trying to bring a point of view of looking at alternatives into the mix, when the approach to anyone who does, is just to accuse them of being a Castle Partner.

Just consider this: the focus has been on CP approaching the Glovers "behind the back". That is almost certainly NOT what happened. If you think about it, that CP is almost certainly controlled by the Glovers, my vision is that the Glovers created CP, and invited in people they thought could make the company work. If you think that people send in a resume to be on Disney's board, you've got a good bottle.

So many of you continue to bash CP, in spite of the fact that Milt publically stated they are not the demons that they are made out to be. Who is making that case? YOU. And Milt disagrees with you. Fairly respectful treatment of Milt, I'd say.

Milt continues to negotiate with CP. He must consider that remaining at Lane is a preferable option....he's stated so! People have stated that he's looked for a long time for an alternative...if there is, why aren't we moving right now? No lease to tie us up! Because Milt want to find a way to stay that works for everyone, obviously.

Milt's negotiating partner, Michael Flint, is treated with contempt and disrespect by many posters on the Castle forums, and here. He is NOT treated that way by Milt. I dunno...if I had a bunch of people attacking me, I'd find it difficult not to respond in kind to the provocations.

It is interesting that CP, clearly controlled by the Glovers, decided to involve people with superior business skills that are also magicians. They could have asked, say, Richard Cowley, a bit of a rebel....but what special business skill does he have? I do not think it is accidental that the magicians are business-savy folk, do you?
These people were not known to be particular friends, so how did they get together in CP....how about they were asked?

So, it is clear that the majority of the membership is not interested in other opinions. I imagine that there will be a "purge" of "disloyal" members, if you can figure out who they are, after this settles out. Note that 10% of the people present voted AGAINST the resolution at the meeting, the one that Milt didn't want.

So, I imagine that Flint and Zimmerman will be attacked and prodded and insulted by you folk until they get fed up sufficiently that they quit CP. So now the management company will have NO magician representation. Clearly THAT is a better situation for us! Or make them bitter and disgusted. Can you say "Clarence Thomas?"

You guys would accomplish a lot more if you ACTUALLY supported Milt, instead of TALKED ABOUT supporting Milt.

The Magic Castle is now gone, as we know it, as of the resolution of this matter....at least Milt says so, if you believe him. That being said, the ONLY thing the membership can do at this time is to figure out how to make the AMA work well, as it moves into the future. There is NOTHING that the membership can do otherwise at this time, other than to continue to undermine Milt. It might be more productive to shut up about CP, and let Milt work, *if you trust him*, *if you support him*, and *if you want him to lead us*. Spend the energy on making the AMA a better organization, not just made up of people who can do one trick.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 27th, 2004, 1:57 pm

has there been any new news? Any meetings? Castle gone as we know it?

explain..

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 27th, 2004, 2:55 pm

There is no news, and it is unlikely that there will be any for some time.
The Magic Castle is operating, and it's business as usual for the time being.
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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 27th, 2004, 4:32 pm

AceTwo I'd much prefer to send this to an email address and NOT post it here, but you won't give me one...

>You guys would accomplish a lot more if you ACTUALLY supported Milt, instead of TALKED ABOUT supporting Milt. The Magic Castle is now gone, as we know it, as of the resolution of this matter....at least Milt says so, if you believe him. That being said, the ONLY thing the membership can do at this time is to figure out how to make the AMA work well, as it moves into the future. There is NOTHING that the membership can do otherwise at this time, other than to continue to undermine Milt. It might be more productive to shut up about CP, and let Milt work, *if you trust him*, *if you support him*, and *if you want him to lead us*. Spend the energy on making the AMA a better organization, not just made up of people who can do one trick.

Throwing the Milt card is unfair, especially from someone anonymous. If Milt sent me an email (magiccastle@Cox.net) to shut up because I was hurting his negations, youd never hear another word from me. Until then you expect this member to challenge everything that Castle Partners have stated if it is misinformation or half truths. No I am not going to sit back and watch the coup take place without saying a word.

Besides, was it not Zimmerman who showed the ultimate disrespect by calling out lies, lies, lies, at the general meeting? Real good negotiation tactics, reminds me of Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table at the UN.

There is NOTHING that Castle Partners can do to shut me up, and stop me from posting. Only ONE man can, and that is Milt. By either telling me to shut up or were moving. The AMA will NOT work in the same building as Castle Partners. Too many differences to work out, too many conflicts of interest, a bad marriage in my opinion. By not allowing Castle Partners to take over our building we ARE looking into the future to make the AMA better. If it is on Franklin or elsewhere.

>>>This is my final post. I don't see any use in trying to bring a point of view of looking at alternatives into the mix, when the approach to anyone who does, is just to accuse them of being a Castle Partner.

WHAT alternatives? All I have heard from Castle Partners is what I have read in Genii and the NY Sun Times. Mr. Flint has brought nothing new to the members to hang our hats on. I have heard of NO specific plans, just generalized promises. Oh, yea, thats right secret and confidential. Id rather be accused of being a loyal member of the AMA than a Castle Partner.

Finally your logic for staying anonymous is flawed. You are worried about repercussions. It sounds to me like you are not all that convinced Castle Partners is going to win this coup. If they do you will have NO problems as your loyalty to them will be rewarded (a hypothesis). It is hard to follow the advice of someone who is not 100% behind either Castle Partners or the AMA. The folks who are on the fence, Ill use your figure of 10%, pretty much are waiting to see what happens. I have no problem with this at all. Sounds like a good smart safe move. Sad to see you go Acetwo. If you believe it is the best solution for your club, I cant really fault you for that opinion.

You should stay and give us reasons to believe. Based on the limited info from Castle Partners, no plan and no ideas published, I simply cant buy into it. Sounds too much like an Enron Investment to me..HELP me to understand WHY this is the best deal? Send ME private email mail and you have my word it will be only between you and I. If you know me you know that is all you need. If you and I have spoken in the past, then I will try and convince you that you are being pulled to the dark side. When I was on the BoD many members and employees came to me in confidance. I never let them down.

Castle Partners wants to let us know AFTER the deal is done. Does that not bother you? Please dont throw the Milt card again unless you can truly speak for him.


John

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 27th, 2004, 7:17 pm

John you say: "I will try and convince you that you are being pulled to the dark side"

yet in the very same post you admit:

"I have heard of NO specific plans" and... "Based on the limited info from Castle Partners, no plan and no ideas published"


So... let me get this straight... you claim that Acetwo is getting sucked into something that you haven't any clue about.

I rest my case. You know nothing...

My suggestion would be that you stop trying to light the fire under something that hasn't fully come to light on it's own.. Just because YOU don't have any clue as to what CP's plans are, doesn't mean they're evil and you should have nothing to do with them.

You would be more the fool to bash down with a snap judgment base on your limited knowledge of the group without giving them time to present themselves. They don't have to do it by your schedule either, but I'm sure you will fault them for not being as fast and upfront as YOU would prefer it.

Even still you don't sound like the kind of guy to gave anyone a fair enough chance. What you're doing instead, is spiking the drinking water of the viewing audience before the result of a horse race are out. So like you said, you haven't a clue as to What the CP's are planning, so stop portraying them as the bad guys. They may be the best thing to ever happen to the place if you gave them a chance to present there case... not by your time, but by the Glovers stop watch..

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 27th, 2004, 10:08 pm

Hello kind friends,

I don't agree with everything Brian has siad or in the manner in which he has said things here but, it is a little odd that everyone on this forum seems to be yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when it comes to these CP people.

The last I've heard, there was no need for fearing these CP people based on what we know as of now. I to know nothing about them and who at this point can come to any logical conclusion. It suprizes me even more to hear people say they don't even want to hear anything from these people, which indicates a pure lack of common sense.

I'd hate to join a club where everyone is opinionated without having at least rumors backing up there hatred lol

I guess I'm just hoping for some positive moral and professionalism here, which isn't to much to ask. Lets all wait and see what happens.

All things can work out if both sides are heard and both sides considered with open minds. Besides, it doesn't sound like we really have much choice in the outcome to begin with.

What may come to pass is however that we realize in the end that we were all on the same side to begin with and it is only because of a handful of those that are scared of change, that anything is given a fair chance.

**let's let this thread cool down a bit, and lets wait for some real info. for example better facts that we can't debate with personal attacks.

Cheers
Joel Payne
Dream Best Dreams

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 27th, 2004, 10:21 pm

one more thing..

I will be joining the AMA come April Yippee!!, and I'm looking forward to being a part of the AMA and a **fun** club (no matter what happens)

Let's all keep our spirits up.. Me, being a new member, I won't know about all of your rumored pasts. lol

Peace.
-JP

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 27th, 2004, 11:32 pm

"Brian_D"

The problem is only one of trust. CP won't tell us anything until AFTER the new lease has been signed. Call me funny, but that does not set well with me. Call me silly, but I have to go with the side I believe in and trust.

John

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Pete McCabe » February 28th, 2004, 12:09 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Maybe close on Mondays (like many restaurants to cut expenses) and have Tuesday/Wednesdays for MEMBERS ONLY and have a buffet, or a fixed menu,no ordering from a menu, at a member-friendly price.
This plan has been green-lighted! Here's the menu for the new member's only night:

Fruit Cups and Meatballs
Strat-o-salad
Ambitious Cod
Sawing a Lady in Half and Half
Run, Welsh Rarebit, Run
Frog Princes Legs
Hot Scrod

For desert:
Cone Zero

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2004, 10:29 am

John Scanlan

that's understandable, it's hard to trust what you don't yet understand, this is why nightmare on elmstreet one was scary while once you saw what he looked like, you started to find it funny..

We should really wait and see what these people have to offer. Like I said, we may all be on the same side after all.

I know we all want whats best for the group.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2004, 12:05 pm

Several of you are correct. We seem to be down to debating minor insignificant points of little consequence. . So much compost has been piled on both sides; it is impossible to sort out just what is the real issue. So I am going to ratchet it way back and just stick to what I want.

I want the club and Magic Castle to remain in complete control of Milt and the AMA.
Thats it.

Do you recall when you were a kid and your Mom was going to come in a clean up your room because it was a mess? You know she could do a better job & much faster than anyone cleaning it up. But darn it, it was YOUR room and stay the heck out Mom, Ill clean it my self. No different here. Same scenario here.

This is NOT about money, door counts, profit or who books the entertainment. It is not about more benefits for the members or better shows, or a fresh coat of paint in the kitchen. It is simply about the club. The club IS defined as everything inside the building including the F&B. I dont care if Castle Partners will do a better job. It simply is NOT in the equation for me to allow them to do it. Not logical? Not good business sense? Well I am the first to admit it is not. But that is my passion and my choice. If Glovers are not happy with us, then the best solution is to send us on our way. We all must leave the nest someday. Now sounds like a good time.

Im through bickering, name calling and fighting on line. If someone needs to be taken down a notch I will do it as it should be done, in private. I may not post any more on Genii because I find myself getting into arguments with NON members and phantoms. What is the point in that?

I apologize to any of you I may have insulted in my posts. I just dont see any need to drag AMA or MC family business to an entity outside of that family. Poor judgment on my part to have done so.

Our job at the AMA/Castle is to provide you, the magicians whom are not members an organization you would want to join. Based on the many post I and others have made, we have not portrayed an organization you would be proud to join. I recall the IBM wars of a few years ago. Please accept my profound apologies. Passion and pride sometimes gets in the way of judgment.


John Scanlan
magiccastle@cox.net
626-664-3597 (c)

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2004, 4:36 pm

John Scanlan "Do you remember when you were a kid and your Mom was going to come in a clean up your room because it was a mess? You know she could do a better job & much faster. But darn it, it was YOUR room and stay the heck out, Ill clean it my self. No different here. Same scenario."

You are right John, same scenario. Your mom and/or your dad owned the house, and if she told you for 3 years to clean your room and you didn't, she would clean it for you, no matter how many times in the last 3 years you told her you would. Great analogy!

John, "I dont care if Castle Partners will do a better job, they probably can." (This quote is from your Castle Forum post. My apologies if I have committed any copyright infringement.)

Thanks John, coming from you that means alot.

John " If Glovers are not happy with us there, then the best solution is to send us on our way. We all must leave the nest someday."

So, you believe that instead of trying to work out something that works for CP, the Glovers, the AMA & Milt Larsen, we should just have handed Milt a 30 day notice on January 1, 2004?

WOW, that's really cold and very telling. I know that Milt has had 3 years to find a new location, but that really is cold.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2004, 5:25 pm

Well, as John says, there is no new information, and people are arguing minor points and (I say, not John), deconstructing posts with the verve of Stalinist trial. I personally think its impossible to have a productive discussion when people use every opportunity to take parts of statements out of context and provide interpretations that are clearly not what the writer intended. People aren't really discussing at this stage, but playing to the audience, I would say. (BTW, as a disclaimer, I have no horse in this race - I live in the bay area, do not belong to the magic castle, and have no personal knowledge of, or relationship to any of the principals or other posters.)

It does seem to me, though, that there are two incompatible points of view being expressed, and one side (CP) does everything in its power to not directly address this, but instead tries to push the discussion elsewhere. John Scanlan said this very clearly in his last post, as many other posters have said in earlier posts - if Milt/AMA have to give up control of their clubhouse, then it is not worth staying - end of discussion. CP never addresses this issue, at least in their posts here. The discussion is always changed to how they could run things better, or the Glovers have the right to step in, or the AMA will realize how financially beneficial it would be to let CP run things, etc. or various forms of ad hominem attacks. These things (with the exception of the ad-hominem attacks) may be true, but are beside the point.

As far as I can tell people are shooting at the target they want to hit, not addressing the key issue - should the AMA give up control of their clubhouse and become guests, in return for stability and financial security? I would assume that is what the negotiations are about - is it a little loss of autonomy and control, or would the AMA members feel like second class citizens in a commercial establishment?

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Pete Biro » February 28th, 2004, 6:24 pm

Maybe the CP should open their own place and see how easy it isn't.
Stay tooned.

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Steve Bryant » February 28th, 2004, 6:38 pm

So, you believe that instead of trying to work out something that works for CP, the Glovers, the AMA & Milt Larsen, we should just have handed Milt a 30 day notice on January 1, 2004?
What's cold is you guys insinuating yourselves into a position to do this. You just don't get it. You guys are the bad guys in this sad turn of events.

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Steve V » February 28th, 2004, 10:15 pm

I was on the fence about this whole thing, I just didn't want to see Milt hurt as he heads into his senior years. Michael convinced me in his last post that the AMA and Milt is the party under attack and being hurt. It is very sad what is happening and I hope that at the end Milt and company wins, meaning the AMA wins, be it at the Castle or elsewhere. As for John Scanlon, I appreciate his passion and his presence.
Steve V
Steve V

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2004, 11:18 pm

Here's another vote for Mr. Scanlon's passion and presence. Thanks! :)

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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Nicholas Carifo » February 29th, 2004, 12:02 am

Saw this posted today in Alan Watson's NZ Magic Newsletter. Thought all those in this thread would be interested since I have not seen it reprinted here yet....


---------------------------------------------
FROM ALAN WATSONS NZ NEWSLETTER 2/28/04:

The Castle Partners And Their Vision For The Magic Castle In Hollywood
-----------------
Message from Diana Zimmerman (US)

My apologies for the delay. We were hoping to have something more
solid to provide you with, but it has not yet been forthcoming. I
can, however, tell you the following..

Castle Partners, LLC has made the AMA a ten point offer. Peter
Reveen and Andy Ulloa (Tom Glover's Stepson) presented it to the
Academy Board at their last meeting. Amazingly, we were only given
ten minutes to present such an important issue. We did, however,
meet a few days later with Lew Horowitz, Dale Hindman and Milt
Larsen to discuss and clarify the offer. They asked dozens of
questions regarding it, all of which we seemed to be able to answer
to their satisfaction. Naturally, there are many, many details to be
worked out. We are awaiting a response from the AMA's new Board of
Directors. The anticipated time frame is the 15th of March.

The details of the offer are still confidential. However, I can tell
you that instead of the approximately 104K that the AMA reported as
profit last year (2003), Castle Partners, LLC's offer will put up to
a million dollars in its pocket each year - naturally, to do with as
it likes. With these type of funds, there should be no reason to
ever increase member dues again - but that will, of course, be up to
that AMA. CPLLC's offer will greatly increase member benefits in the
areas that many members have been asking for such as better access
to shows, a members only area, special "members only" dinners and
pricing, increase in magicians pay, plus so much more.

Absolutely NO member benefits will be taken away and members will
have the same access, (or better) etc., as always. I think that is
very important to reiterate.. Absolutely NO member benefits will be
taken away and members will have the same access, etc., (or better)
as always. It will also provide the AMA with a long-term lease.
Under CP's offer, the Castle will be run by an Operational Board
that we hope will include: the AMA, CP, the Glovers, Irene and Milt.
We have also insisted that any deal include restoring Irene Larsen
with equity, something that was taken away from her when Bill died.

Additionally, CPLLC has made Milt Larsen a very lucrative offer. He
is in the process of reviewing it. Milt has stated that he will get
back to us by the first week in March. We very much want Milt to
stay involved and support him 100%. Milt, like Walt Disney, is a
great visionary. But even Walt realized that he needed a great
business person with him to carry on his legacy - and by Milt's own
admission, he is not a business man.

There have been a lot of mis-truths and un-substantiated rumors
stated about CPLLC. Unfortunately, the story broke long before it
should have, and that started all of the "silliness." Let me clarify
a few of the more well-touted misconceptions.

It all started when, having heard all of the rumors that the Glovers
were not happy with the AMA and Milt, and that they wanted to "turn
the Castle into a disco," Peter Reveen, Bob Rossi, Michael Flint and
myself approached the Glovers through a third party, Bill Rose,
about buying the property to give the AMA a permanent home. Our
offer was flatly turned down. We did, however, learn that the
Glovers had no intention of making it a "disco" and that this was
just another bit of propaganda to make them look like the bad guys!

It was ONLY after negotiations with Milt had completely fallen apart
(the Glovers negotiated for 21/2 years with him to no avail) that we
stepped up to the plate. This was also ONLY after being assured by
the Glovers that neither Milt, nor the AMA would be given a new
lease at all if we didn't get involved. And that if we did get
involved, that Milt, the AMA and the original intent of the Castle,
i.e. to keep the Magic Castle a private club for Magicians would be
upheld. With this in place, we decided to intervene.

If I can leave your readers with just one thought, it is this. All
of the people involved with CPLLC are visionary builders - not
destroyers. We all love the Castle. Peter has been there since its
very founding. I started the Junior program, which is now thirty
years old. Michael served on the Marketing committee for eight
years. It is in honor of Bill and Irene Larsen, their father,
William Larsen, Sr. and of course Milt, that we have worked so very
hard to provide a solution that will enable the Castle to flourish
for the next forty years.

I hope this helps to clarify a few issues.

Sincerely,

Diana Zimmerman
----------------------------------------
THIS ABOVE POST BY DIANA ZIMMERMAN REPOSTED HERE FROM ALAN WATSON'S NZ E-ZINE 2/28/04
--nc

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 9:46 am

Nicholas - thank you for posting this article...how strange it had to appear in New Zealand first...and then work its way here. Oh well.

The following is from the article:
"The details of the offer are still confidential. However, I can tell you that instead of the approximately 104K that the AMA reported as
profit last year (2003), Castle Partners, LLC's offer will put up to a million dollars in its pocket each year - naturally, to do with as
it likes.

KD: Okay - but whose pockets will that "up to a million dollars" go into? CPLLC is placing itself as the owner of the operation in all of this...and, usually, the profits go to the operation of the establishment...or, to the landlord, or, to the owner. I don't foresee a direct link to the membership in theory or in the mis-leading statement given above.

CP: With these type of funds, there should be no reason to ever increase member dues again - but that will, of course, be up to that AMA. CPLLC's offer will greatly increase member benefits in the areas that many members have been asking for such as better access to shows, a members only area, special "members only" dinners and pricing, increase in magicians pay, plus so much more."

KD: What is the "members only area" Is it the lower level of the basement? Will the "members only food" be served there? And, if the new owners need that space for their functions, will the "members only" be asked not to appear for that night? As far as I see it, the whole dang clubhouse right now is "members only" - except that we invite guests and other corporate entities into our setting. The matters listed are very easily encompassed by our own organization - without any loss of control from our own organization upon our own organization - by expansion or relocation of our clubhouse.

CP: Absolutely NO member benefits will be taken away and members will have the same access, (or better) etc., as always. I think that is
very important to reiterate.. Absolutely NO member benefits will be taken away and members will have the same access, etc., (or better)
as always.


KD: The minute we lose the control of the food and beverage and entertainment operations of our clubhouse we have been compromised. These are a part of our membership as well...whether conceivable as "benefits" or not....it is important to acknowledge the "Benefit" of self-operation control...and not falling prey to an outside directive operating our club and clubhouse for the best of their interests.


Just a couple of quick thoughts before I grab a cup of coffee and really study this thing further.

Thanks again for posting this here.

An action that the CPLLC could have done (posting this article here) at any point in these given forums in our country. I guess it served them better to publish their interests half way around the planet. I didn't know that the embodiment of the AMA was on holiday in New Zealand and planning to move our club there.

Geesh.

Kd

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 10:03 am

KD: Okay - but whose pockets will that "up to a million dollars" go into?

if I read it correctly it looks to be handed over to the AMA?

I would'nt speculate beyond what has been written Kym. It looks like we'll know all about it in a few short weeks.

See you all Tuesday at the Castle.
Best.
Joel Payne

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 12:08 pm

The million dollars will be surplus AMA money from dues, initiation fees, swap meet, magic class revenue. The surplus will come from not paying all employees which will be CP's responsibility, not paying maintenance, utilities, workers comp, etc.

Overly simplified, this will be a gigantic surplus of AMA dues money. The surplus will be there because the AMA is no longer responsible for paying all of the bills that they are paying now. By design, this surplus will never be touched by CP. It will be moneys collected by the AMA from it's members. It is money that will be handled only by the AMA, again to do with as the AMA pleases.

The members only area will be determined by an operations board which will include AMA reps, Milt & Irene. Kym, where would you like it to be?

A few days ago, I suggested that anyone with an interest in this issue, recalculate the AMA 2003 financial statement, removing the costs of operating the club.

That is what we did to calculate the surplus of up to one million dollars for the AMA.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 12:29 pm

Hi Mike - you ask: "The members only area will be determined by an operations board which will include AMA reps, Milt & Irene. Kym, where would you like it to be?"

KD: In a clubhouse location that is under the direct control of the AMA and not that of an outside firm. ;)

All the best -

Kd
:cool;

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 12:44 pm

To Kym and all others that want to control the future and destiny of the AMA:

A few of the problems that the AMA has today stem from not being tax exempt, and not having a war chest.

Try this on for size: Stay at the Lane mansion for as short a period of time as possible (3 to 5 years?). During that time, trade total control for an active role and an extra million dollars per year (3 to 5 million dollars). Get tax exempt (501c3) status so that no taxes are paid on the millions. This would be a slam dunk to do without a food and beverage operation.

While building a war chest at the present location, see what it is like to enjoy the club with none of the current headaches. During that time, the AMA board and Scanlan could fix and improve any or all of the issues (large & small) that members complain about on this forum & others.

If you like "living" with CP, then stay longer and if you don't.....well with millions of dollars saved up, you could move into a building that you could own.

In the big picture, looking at the future of the AMA as being at least another 40 years, wouldn't a few years now better allow you and the AMA to really control their destiny forever?

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 2:06 pm

Michael - you show appetizing bait. It is merely speculation.

Here is reality.

Your organization made an unethical and under the rug approach to take control of the Lane Mansion and, in effect, the AMA.

As representative of that organization, you have never given direct facts, proof, evidence, or otherwise of any matter requested of you. You have taken to heart the ability to point out our errors and difficulties, all the time stating you have an answer. Even now, that "answer" is speculation in an attempt to sway the concept in your direction. Your actions, and those of your group are point enough for me that I do not wish your organization controlling my clubhouse.

You have taken great care in baiting individuals on these forums and elsewheres, interjecting material in other threads, all done in "divide and conquer" strategies, hidden manipulations worthy of the magician you are, and otherwise. Even this "rosey picture" you offer is still a "divide and conquer" tactic..."See how great it would be, see how wonderful it is, see how green the grass is on the other side. Sorry, I don't take apples from snakes. Even if they are in "greener grass" than on a tree limb.

You and your organization came into an AMA membership meeting on your AMA membership cards. You were not there as AMA members, you were there as CPLLC to present yourselves and your views. This is a falsified use of your membership and, in my book, highly unethical...which holds true to the pattern you have shown and established in this attempted takeover since the start. In this last point, you used your AMA membership to garner you an inside position at OUR meeting - not a CPLLC meeting - which you are. Oh! Wait...using your memberships to gain your leverage is what you have done all along the route. Shame on you. And yet you still state you respect this organization and care for it. Sorry, Michael, I do not trust you or feel that is exactly what this is about.

Your track record speaks louder to me than any baited promise of "green grass growing and blue water flowing". I like my grass and water fine as they are just now, thank you. And, if those meadows and streams need attending to and care, I wish it by the hands of the AMA and our organization only, not a pack of wolves who have donned sheeps clothing in order to gain better entry into that flock.

Respectfully back to you...

KD

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 2:52 pm

Kym, I think you fail to grasp the true fact. That Milt has no lease, the CP are offering a good deal (in my opinion being to kind) and it doesn't look as if the AMA has a choice but to except it or move..

Since the AMA hasn't made the announcement that they are moving, my guess is that the AMA should be happy with whatever good graces they are offered by the Glovers who could pull the plug and sell the land alone for 50 million. The writing is on the wall... there doesn't seem to be any AMA bargaining chip because it makes no sense to me, that if Milt had a war chest of sorts, why he would put up with CP running the club at all. The thought alone would have been move us months ago.

Obviously he doesn't have this option to move, or he would been moved years ago while the lease up. My educated guess, is that he is trying his best to hold on to what he has now by trying to keep the AMA calm. specifically by not making any crazy statements like the ones you seem to be fond of. Don't you think it a little odd that the BoD remained the same? That fact only backs up what I had said before about them. My vote in the AMA means nothing...and THAT is FACT you can hang your that on. Good luck on changing thing, it would seem THAT'S impossible.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 3:01 pm

and for the record and to all of you old and new passioniate AMA'rs.. if this debate is'nt about a damn Clubhouse(Building) then what REALLY IS the problem with CP running the (structure).. If the AMA is still the AMA then why hold so much anger over another group of people running The Lane mansion.

I'm confused now... this debate is still about the AMA right?? or is it..

I don't know about you folks.. but I don't claim to be a member of the "magic Castle" I'm a member of the "AMA" so... I guess you don't have an argument with the separation of the two entities...

now... if this debate is about money, you'd think any organization would be happy to have a private club where they don't have to deal with the costs of running the home they're housed in while gaining a possible million each year?

You people should stick to one target at a time, or you'll find one on your own in not sticking to the point. Either you're worried about losing the "Lane mansion", or you're worried about the AMA.

sounds like you want you cake and eat it to.. problem is who is handing out the cake.. Clearly, the Glovers could kick you all out of your whining ears..

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 3:10 pm

Brian D.:

I don't know who you are, but earlier you said you were not a member of the AMA:

"I will join the AMA if it doesn't remain in limbo for months on end. I have no problem with the AMA, only the BOD. Even still, I doubt I as a newcomer could do anything to change the situation if 5,000 members have done little to improve the current troubles."

Which is it? You sure have a lot of opinions about what we members should do.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 4:14 pm

Brian At first I thought you really had some desire to understand and grasp what was going on. Anymore I think you are merely looking for an excuse to attack an organization, individuals, or anything else you can get a rise out of and entice into a flame war.

However Believe it or not, the AMA has several playing chips. And, those will be used in this game when needed. As for Milt looking to move us you have no idea of how long Milt has been exploring the avenues of relocation of our clubhouse facility. Those are strategies and explorations that must, in order to get the best business deal, kept as private and as personal as possible.

You state: if this debate is'nt about a damn Clubhouse(Building) then what REALLY IS the problem with CP running the (structure).. If the AMA is still the AMA then why hold so much anger over another group of people running The Lane mansion.

Brian understand this the AMA is in charge of our clubhousewherever that structure sits or exists. A group coming in and running the clubhouse removes the AMA from operating its own structure and identity. It wouldnt matter if we were sitting in a clubhouse in Kalamazoo that our club operated, the outside group coming in and attempting to run the business end of our club takes that from the club, and, in effect, runs the club based upon their whims. The club meets within the clubhousethe clubhouse belongs to the club

As for location of that clubhouse, or whether or not that clubhouse needs to expand and relocate has NOTHING to do with a hostile take over of a clubs operation. Apples and oranges, Brian. Two separate things that are closely united in the barrel just now, that is all.

All CPLLC is offering is speculation on greener pasturesand the adage about greener grass on the other side of the fence very much applies here. The offer is there, but, what do the actions of that group present? A highly dishonorable and undesirable organization with no ethical standards of operation. I do not wish that to own the business operation of my club. Nor do I wish my club to be subject to such an organizations desires and whims.

The worry is now, and has been, and will be, about the embodiment of the AMA. That is applied to the size and functionality space of our clubhouse, that is applied to the hostile takeover of the operational arm of our organization by an undesirable group, that is applied to the future growth and development of the AMA as its own entity under its own banner into the 21st century.

Yes, Brian, these factors are about the AMA. An organization you option to find so much wrong with and catcall at and yet refuse to come forward and joinan organization you stated you wished to join, an organization you have been invited to join by several individuals and take a stance to work towards creating a better future for that club. You have not done this. You continue your pattern of trying to enter flame war discussions with other individuals and delighting in making public the faults you personally see within the embodiment of the AMA.

When this discussion with you first started, it was your stating that YOUR image of the AMA was the embodiment of the clubhouse i.e., the Magic Castle. You focused on the Lane house as being the central point. Since then, you have turned to public assaults on the AMA organization and the BOD an organization YOU ARE NOT A PART OF. Unless you are a part of that organization, Brian, you do not (in my personal opinion) have a right to criticize it. And, if you were a part of that organization (in my personal opinion) your public taking that club to task in forums (other than those which belong to the club itself) are disrespectful to that group and show a real lack of concerned character upon your behalf.

Say, you sound like a member of the CPLLC, did you know that? That's a group of indidividuals who I really don't want in my organization.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 6:44 pm

You say: "AMA from operating its own structure and identity"


The Glovers own the "structure" and can do what they will with it.

as for the "Identity," this is a separate issue. Hostile or not, I don't think the AMA have a choice at this point. Is'nt that what makes it hostile? Because members like youself can't accept that you don't have a choice?

The only person who does is Milt, and either he will put up with this, or pick up his marbles and go... one way or another YOU will have nothing to do with that choice, so stop your bashing of the CP.

***For the record, I AM A MEMBER, have been for 12 years. I love the AMA, I don't like the current BoD***

Is the fear I have of losing my membership warented? Yes. Do I enjoy being run off by you people like Acetwo just because I see a different view? no. Y

our high horse opinions about me not having a valuable opinion just because I'm not a member just rang out to all of those magicians who live in other states who love the AMA and dissagree with you.

However, you'll be happy to know that this will be my final post.. because honestly Kym, you are missguided on these issues and as most women, you think with your emotions. Personally I'd rather pass on the personal attacks as I'm sure anyone would.

You can't even adopt you're own suggestions of "wait and see"

and no... I'm not with CP, but I hope they clean up the place (if you know what I mean)

good luck.

Guest

Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Guest » February 29th, 2004, 6:46 pm

You know, I'm at the point now, where wish I hadn't read all the posts in this thread.

I've never been to the Magic Castle, but in the whole time I've been doing magic, it has been there, a symbol of magic, and art and tradition, a banner behind which one might rally, a cloak in which a magician might wrap himself. Most things we do in life have a history, and a headquarters, a thing to aspire to, the Magic Castle provided this, to me anyways for magic.

But the banner is torn, the cloak cast off, the illusion dispelled. After reading this, the arguing, the bitterness, the deceptions, and the anger, my friends, the magic is gone.

I ask you, all of you to put aside your differences, and at the very least, put on a unified front to the world. Move the Castle, Save the Castle, let someone else run it, but anything, any possible solution would be better than "winning" and ending up with a fractured and spiteful membership. For all the magicians in the world who do not live close to the castle, for all of us who view it as a symbol, I ask again, put aside your differences. Be big enough people to give your support to Mr. Larsen, even if you do not think it right. Have the courage to remain silent, ye dissenting voices, for the good of the symbol that is the magic castle and the AMA.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Attention Magic Castle Members

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 29th, 2004, 7:23 pm

As the longest thread (by far) in the history of The Genii Forum, I think things have at last run their course ... for the time being.
This thread is now locked, and until there is actually something new to report, I would appreciate if no new threads on this subject are started.
When there is genuine news to report, please send me a personal e-mail and I'll reopen the thread so you can post it.
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