Is this how businesses treat their customers?

[Areeb Malik]

Here is an email I recieved from a magic shop:

********************

Hi Areeb:
I'm sorry, but transactions like this are precisely the reason I've decided to close the business. A year ago, I offered you a discounted
XXXX XXXX membership. In appreciation, you have purchased nothing from me for a year. In an effort to win back your business, I was willing
to give you a discount -- simply because you requested it -- netting myself (actually my business) a whopping $9. You failed to respond to my offer until I wrote you again. Now you tell me you need another month to decide. I've spent nearly a half hour on this order. Frankly, my business has been going quite well lately, but I just can't take the upset that experiences like this cause. I hope you can understand.
Best,
XXXXXXXX


*************

Is this how magic shops are treating their customers online? It's retailers like this which really bother me. They should be focusing on services as opposed to accusing me on not buying their merchandise. I've spared the identity of the seller. but if he takes transaction like this personally, then he doesn't know a thing about sales! Wake up and welcome to the real world!

-Areeb

[Guest]

Some customers are just really hard to take. That is why I never worked in retail. I see folks in stores that I would drag over the counter and smack around and everyone of them reallllly believes that bs about the customer always being right. Customers are usually wrong. The right ones tend not to have problems.
Steve V

[Guest]

I have never heard of someone treat a customer like what you showed us. I have trouble even starting to believe that a salesman or owner or whatever even had the nerve to write that.. Thats crazy.. Is this what magic has come down to? I'm blown away

[Dustin Stinett]

There are good and bad on both sides of the counter. Ive worked in retail as both employee and employer. I can say, with almost 100% certainty, that customers who continue to bitch and complain will never be satisfied no matter what is done to appease them. These are the type of customer my friend Steve is talking about. Good customers who have problems they need resolved will generally work with the retailer, and a good retailer will have no problem doing just that.

Years ago I had a cartoon I kept on my counter (inside). It showed a clearly pissed off woman standing in front of the customer service counter. The calm CS rep was speaking: We have replaced the item and also refunded your money. Would killing the salesman satisfy you?

Dustin

[Tabman]

hay areeb. good story. that xxxxxxx dealer kinda sounds like xxxx xxxxx but im thinking it is probably someone else. can you give us a hint? even a time zone might help.

[Bill Mullins]

" In an effort to win back your business, I was willing to give you a discount -- simply because you requested it -- You failed to respond to my offer until I wrote you again. Now you tell me you need another month to decide. "

I don't get it.

You asked for a discount.
He offered it.
He offered it again.
But you need a month to decide if you want it.
And you are put out by this??????

Maybe he doesn't want to get out of business. Maybe he just wants to get out of business with YOU.

[Eric Rose]

Magic shops have a long history of selecting who they want to do business with. I used to demo in a magic & costume shop where the owner would jack up the price for anyone she figured would be a pain in the arse. It allowed her to keep her sanity. And, yes, the shop was open for a long time - it was in business for almost 100 years before she and her husband sold it to retire in their 70s.

For-Profit businesses are opened to benefit the owner, not the customer. It's up to the owner to determine the best way to maximize their profits. It might be by providing customer service, desirable products, or by knowing when to turn away a customer. As the sign in the diner I visit says - "We reserve the right to refuse service to anybody."

[Bob Walder]

Sounds like the guy bent over backwards to do business with you and give you a good deal into the bargain - and you dicked him around in return.

You got what you asked for, in my opinion.

I am in business for myself too, and if I am good enough to offer a discount then it is in the anticipation of CLOSING the deal, not in the expectation that the client will mess me around for another month while he makes a decision.

When that happens, I withdraw the discount - and I would not bother to chase you up to offer it to you again, either.

Sounds like the poor retailer is well shot of a customer like you

Bob

[Guest]

There is a great magic shop in Studio CIty that has awesome customer service and will try and beat everyone else's prices and will ship anywhere in the world at ROCK BOTTOM shipping prices! I think all of The Magic Apple's prices are better than that BIG store in Hollywood!! Give me...I mean, them, a call 818-508-9921.
Plus I offer 10% off all Castle Members, IBM and SAM members too!
11390 Ventura Blvd #2
Studio CIty CA 91604

[Guest]

Wasn't the 'magic apple' the apple given to Snow White intending on killing her? What kind of service representative symbol is that? You sure your name isn't XXXX XXXXX?
Steve V

[mrgoat]

Originally posted by DustinStinett:
I can say, with almost 100% certainty, that customers who continue to bitch and complain will never be satisfied no matter what is done to appease them.

Understandable.

but in this case, there was no bitching and complaining. Just appaling customer service.

[Guest]

No wonder the shopkeepers are not paying attention to customer service since most of the customers apparently thinks it is acceptable.

Read the post again, "I have spend nearly a half hour on this order". Well that isn't really any time at all. Some demo's take longer than that.

And what is this discount thing? Is it wrong to ask for discount and still think if the price is right? Think about property sales, car sales, electronic sales etc. You go to a shop, you haggle the price, you go home and think about it.

[Dustin Stinett]

Originally posted by mrgoat:

Originally posted by DustinStinett:
[b] I can say, with almost 100% certainty, that customers who continue to bitch and complain will never be satisfied no matter what is done to appease them.

Understandable.

but in this case, there was no bitching and complaining. Just appaling customer service. [/b]

I was not commenting on the original post at all: I was commenting on Steve Vs post in regard to customers in general. The sentence that immediately follows the quote you snipped is, These are the type of customer my friend Steve is talking about. It was my intention that this sentence give the quote you attribute to me its complete context. Since I prefer not to be taken out of context, I apologize for my apparent failure in communicating that. I have no comment in regard to the email posted by Areeb since Im not convinced that the complete story (that is, both sides) is well represented.

Dustin

[Jamy Ian Swiss]

I doubt anyone will be eager to hear this, but I will take a leap and suggest that the real outrage here is that anyone who considers him or
herself a magician, and claims to care about the art and business magic, does any business at all with any online discounters whatsoever.

Every time you spend money with an online discounter who does not have a brick-and-mortar store, you are hastening the demise of the local magic shop. And yet time and time again we see that where there is a thriving magic shop that, consistent with the historical role of magic shops, actually contributes to the culture of magic, that is where the art itself truly thrives. And conversely, where there are no magic shops, the local magic culture dries up.

Denny Haney of Denny & Lee has helped to create a generation of magicians in Baltimore who will go forward and affect their art, and never forget the contribution he made to their work -- and hence, the future of magic. Perhaps not coincidentally, before he was a great magic dealer, he was (and remains) a great magician.

I will do business with online stores that contribute constructively to the culture of magic and that do not discount. Hence I do business, for example, with H&R Magic Books.

By discounting, I'm not talking here about a genuine dealer who is clearing his inventory of videotapes, for example. I mean online dealers who simply buy small quantities wholesale and offer big discounts on brand new products. I would gladly give up the additional sales of my book if I could prevent such dealers from carrying it. Unfortunately, I can't.

Of course I am quite familiar -- so please do not offer to explain it to me here as if it is news -- with principles of supply and demand, and the free market, and blahblahblah. Of course we cannot prevent what is happening. As the market grows, discounters were bound to take
advantage. As online selling becomes easier, small-time quick-buck artists were bound to move in. When information technology makes it feasible, predators will skim the literature and put material on video to put dollars in their own pockets without offering any benefit to magic. As the opportunity appears, gift shops and kiosks will crop up selling yet another version of a piece of thread and a dangling playing card. There's no stopping it. What's being an underground legend mean when you can sell a dead magician's trick on video in a dozen gift shops in Las Vegas?

But every individual has commmand over his or her personal choices. If you don't care about the future of magic, if you don't care about the
survival of the magic store as an important element in our community, if you don't care about rewarding those who provide genuine knowledge and expertise and invaluable advice and wise counsel -- people like Denny Haney and Dick and Charlie from H&R Magic Books, and others of their quality -- then go ahead and buy only by price from any fly-by-night operator on the web.

But then don't complain when you not only get the kind of "customer service" described in this thread, but also, when there are no responsible, knowledgeable magic dealers left. Just remember that, with every discount dollar you spend, you have only yourself to thank for the result.

[Areeb Malik]

:confused:

Okay here it is:

1 year ago:
Place a large order with the retailer. (Around $150, hey that's a lot of money for me!)

1 year - 1 hour
I find out that if I had joined their "Club", I would have saved a substantial amount off my order. I inquire about it, but the retailer says that the order has gone through. He extends an offer to let me join the club at a discount. It's not the same amount of what I would have saved, but I took it anyway.


Around 1 year after the original purchase:

I get an email saying that I didn't buy anything (it will take me a lifetime to get through Marlo's Expert Card Technique) and if there was anything that could be done to have my business.

I ask about a particular book that I would be interested in.


1 day after:
He offers me a deal for the book.

I don't respond immediately, heaven forbid! Could it be I was busy with work?


2 days later:
He asks if I got the offer.
I reply that I am going to be away for the rest of the month and will get back to him.

In response, I get the email I originally posted. (I also have the email trail to back up what I've written, Dustin.)


I never really complained and was serious in doing business with this guy. I have never been accused of not buying enough etc... like the email suggests. I have a pretty good track record of doing business with L&L and Hank Lee's. I just thought I would try out some less visible retailers and this is the way I am treated. If it really took a half hour to set-up my order, then I suggest that he get order processing software! :)

I have worked on deals that has taken MONTHS to close. I have worked on deals for months and they never closed. Sales if a difficult thing to do, but you never blast your customer for taking their time.

[Areeb Malik]

I would go to a local magic shop if I had one around me. When I am in SF, I go to Joe's, Boston, Hank Lee's, Montreal, Perfect Magic (but they close on Saturdays. :( ). I don't save any money shopping online because I have to convert currency and pay for shipping.

If I had a shop with quality magic nearby, I would be a more than a happy customer.

[Dustin Stinett]

Areeb,

Im glad you posted your story because now I believe there is more light being shed on the issue. Believe it or not, I felt your posting only the shops email worked against you in this situation (and I believe some of the subsequent posts reflect that). The side that was missingat least in my mindwas your story. It seems to me that a good retailer would have told you that there would be a time limit on his discount offer (Heres my rock-bottom price, but thats only good until next week). Instead, this person chose to insult you when you asked for some time to consider the offer (since he chose not to put a time limit on it). I think it's fair to say that you were treated inappropriately.

Im curious about one thing: You paid full-boat for the original order, then joined the club, correct? Am I safe to assume this cost you an additional amount above the $150 (a lot for me too) though it was discounted? What, exactly, did you get when you joined the club besides the opportunity for continued savings? (Again, assuming that was the idea behind the club.) If all you got was a membership, even at a discount, it seems to me that the retailer received his incremental funds up front and whether or not you took advantage of any further discount opportunities was up to you.

Perhaps you can look at the cost of membership as a lesson learned: stick with the established guys (as Jamy Ian Swiss said), even if you have to order online with them.

Best,
Dustin

[Areeb Malik]

Yes, I did pay full for the original order. I took the membership because I thought I'd eventually use it. I guess I never got around to buying more things, but I am not upset in paying for the membership. Oh well, c'est la vie!

I agree with the suggestion in sticking with the established players. I just wanted people to know that they should not put up with this type of treatment. Now if only we could do something about those magic flyers with 90% videos/ 10% books.


-Areeb

[Steve V]

I don't associate with any magic shop that has a 'club'. If ever in Silicon Valley make sure to visit the Magic Hat.
Steve V

[Matthew Field]

It is a good indication of the emotions stirred in the discussion of discount internet dealers that you brought Jamy Ian Swiss out of semi-permanant lurk mode.

I'll second everything Jamy wrote. Dealers like Denny Haney (Denny & Lee) give back to magic more than they ever earn -- look at Denny's grooming of the performer Puck. Richard Hatch has let me know when an item he knew I'd be interested in had come his way -- how much is that worth?

Discounters will take your dough and disappear, and tough luck on you if that was your magic connection.

The money you think you're saving is one of the great illusions of magic. Strike up a relationship with a dealer or dealers and patronize them.

Sorry, Areeb, you only thought you were saving some money. You were losing something much greater.

Matt Field

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

There seem to be a few assumptions being made about the dealer in question here, namely 1. He's an internet-only business and 2. He's a fly by night business that's only offering deep discounts to make some quick money.

If I'm correct in my hunch on who the dealer is, then both of those assumptions are incorrect. The dealer I'm thinking of does have a brick & mortar shop and is well established. It may help to confirm this before making any more assumptions about a business that so far we only know about from this one e-mail.

-Jim

[Carl Mercurio]

Perhaps the best example of what Jamy and Matt are talking about is Rogue's Magic & Fun Shop in Elmhurst, Queens. Here's a young guy really struggling to live his dream of running his own magic store. To stay afloat, he's built a little theater and puts on shows on Saturday nights charging $10 admission. I perform there all the time to try out new material and generally to help the kid out, as do magicians like Asi Wind, Torkova, Dennis Kyriakos, and other pros. Simon Lovell can be seen lurking in the shadows offering tips and advice on performance and magic in general to the young faithful, and greats like Max Maven have even made a visit. Meanwhile, kids from all around the area perform regularly and get invaluable "stage" time. Try getting that online....Do I shop online or mail order? Yes, mostly from Denny in Maryland and Joe in S.F., but others as well for convenience. But I do make sure to buy from the local magic shops as much as possible.

[Richard Kaufman]

I grew up in Elmhurst, Queens, and the idea that there's now a magic shop a few blocks from the apartment building I lived in is KILLING ME.
I would've been there every single day. :)

[Eric Rose]

I have to drive an hour after work to get to my friend's bricks-and-mortar shop (Funtyme Magic in Columbus, Indiana www.funtymemagic.com - shameless plug) but the drive is worth every minute. I've watched Ed spend a lot of time helping new kids, give advice and in general, make memories for a whole new generation of magicians. The sad part is they walk in and start bragging about what they saved by buying on the internet. He finally got fed up with it and started a guaranteed low price policy.

It's too bad that that type of thing has to happen, but there is a new mindset in the younger magicians - give it to me, I want it now, and I want it cheap.

Still, in spite of the difficulties of running a real magic shop, Ed does what he can to promote magic. He hosts the local IBM meetings, gives beginner's lessons and even has cub scout troops come in for shows. He also acts as a no-charge referral agent when someone's looking for a magician. It's shops like his that we have to support if we want magic to stay personal and real.

[Brian Rasmussen]

I too am a frequent customer of Ed's at the Funtyme Magic Shop and I totally support Eric's post. I read all this hype about some of the big name dealers, but Ed is really a diamond in the rough. He is a fine magician and wonderful thinker regarding our art and not just a guy who can demo some tricks. He is making it pretty well in a smaller Indiana town because magicians from all reaches of our state travel to visit his shop. They wouldn't put forth this kind of effort if it wasn't worth it. This same man once told me to not buy something from him everytime I come into the shop (hard to do if you are me, ha ha) but rather sit and session with him and the guys. Ed always goes out of his way to make certain you are happy with your purchase. I've seen him deal with many customers in the shop and never has he made a sale just to make a sale, but rather he takes time to help customers choose items that are right for them. I prefer to support Ed as much as possible because I get so much more for my money than what I take home in the bag.

[Bob Walder]

Having seen the full posting from Areeb, I must now extend my apologies to him for my earlier post. I agree with Dustin that ONLY posting the shop's original e-mail actually didn't help Areeb's case too much on this occasion...

Having seen both sides of the story, however, I would have to agree with the charge of poor customer service/attitude on the part of the retailer.

If that had been MY business, and a customer had just placed a big order like that, I would have offered him the discount there and then rather than making him join a "discount club" at ADDITIONAL cost and then blasting him for not using it!

Bob

[Bill McFadden]

Originally posted by Jamy Ian Swiss:
. . . the real outrage here is that anyone who considers him or
herself a magician, and claims to care about the art and business magic, does any business at all with any online discounters whatsoever.

I will do business with online stores that contribute constructively to the culture of magic and that do not discount. Hence I do business, for example, with H&R Magic Books.

What bugs me is the number of magicians who consummate exclusive arrangements with internet dealers (like H___s P___s) to sell their marketed items - and leave the good guys (like Denny) hanging. I might purchase an item from a magician's web site with the understanding that it's the only way to obtain said item. If Denny had an exclusive to also sell that item, I'd buy it from him (since I frequent his shop anyway). But too often I learn that the item has been made available through one of Denny's internet competitors. My point is that Jamy's valid position on this issue is really a two-way street - with the bricks-and-mortar guys on the same median as the internet-only purveyors.

[Rick Schulz]

Jamie Swiss has a valid argument regarding "brick and mortar stores" but this also raises a question: how does one distinquish between "real" stores and those with an Internet site only? Price cannot be the sole criterion, as I have seen the same item for a few dollars less at Denny's versus Hank Lee's. Posting a list might help magicians, especially newcomers, who take Mr. Swiss' arguments to heart but a list could become quickly outdated. So how does one know?

[Bill Duncan]

I would think it's pretty easy... if they have a street address on their website they're a brick and mortar operation.

If they don't use their website to promote their walk-in business they're pretty clueless and perhaps you should look else where.

If your not sure you could email them and ask if you could visit their store when you're "in town".

[Guest]

I agree with Mr. McFadden that a big part of the problem is magicians who market their products exclusively through one on-line supplier.

I've had continual problems with one on-line retailer in particular, but keep giving them my business. Why? They stock so many "exclusive" items that I want.

It's not always a matter of price; availability and selection count for a lot too.

[David Mitchell]

I like a good deal.. I am sure that everyone does, but I like the experience that my local store provides.

The owner even knows my voice when I call, sends me e-mails when things come in that he thinks I might be interested in, and then some.

It's like a family.

I like it so much that when the shop ran out of something that I was looking for, and told me they couldn't get it in anymore, I went hunting, found what I was looking for in a completely unrelated store, told the owner, and compared items, and now he is once again carrying the item that I was looking for, but of a higher quality.

I would never have done this for an online shop.

I will ALWAYS support the store near me, even to the point of having to pay a little more, to ensure that the store will be around for a little bit longer.

David.

[Brian Marks]

Joining a club shouldn't require a customer to buy material but the retailer/business has a right to revoke discount memberships if it isn't profitable for him to maintain it.

I agree with Jamy's point yet I differ slighly. I prefer to do business with Denny and H&R books. I do it because I trust brick and mortar stores. I am willing to pay extra for their stability and the expertise of someone like Denny. I trust Denny more than I do some fly by night internet dealer who may be selling something for cheaper. I'd rather give him my business. Id also like to go inside a store and shop. This is the free market. Its called brand loyalty. I also love to support magic but its secondary to love for doing business with people I trust.

[Bob Plaut]

Sorry in advance for being slightly off-topic. I know the arguments for and against online discount retailers have been beaten to death but Ive been lurking in the shadows too long and must express my views. I have a question. How many of you opposed to the discount retailers look beyond the purview of our hallowed magic ground and feel the same way about other retailers/services. Ill assume none of you purchase books from Amazon.com for fear of closing the local bookstores. Ill bet none of you purchase travel from online travel discounters because you want to help the local travel agency. My wife and I have owned a local travel agency for twenty years and have watched the Internet businesses cut into our market for the last five years. You can only guess how much I appreciate the loyal customers who continue to use our services (thanks Eric!).

Heres a surpriseI recently opened an online magic store and yes, I do discount, albeit minimal. You may ask, why? I cant get any more sincere than this. First of all, I dont consider myself to be a small-time quick-buck artist. I have had a vision to open a brick and mortar magic shop since visiting Tom Pretes store in Wallingford, CT 25+ years ago. I still frequent local magic shops whenever I travel and do actually spend money there. I love magic shops. My online venture is a way for me to get in the game, build a client base, and help finance and realize my vision. I hope to open a store within a few years. To those who think this is a false rationalization, you dont know me.

[Richard Kaufman]

The difference between the magic world and all the other instances cited in the real world are but one: the magic world is tiny. The small number of people makes it a different sort of playing field.
The kind of massive discounting we now see on a regular basis from both Internet and regular retailers simply prevents talented people from making the effort to publish books or produce merchandise because the ability to do that and make a profit has decreased.
The result is that more crap appears and less good material appears. It's easy to put out lousy products quickly and more difficult to put out good products. This is one of the reasons there are so many DVDs being produced: they are shot quickly--sometimes two or three in a day! Then they take a few days to edit.

[Bob Plaut]

Excellent point Richard. I can make a stretch analogy to your point, "The kind of massive discounting we now see on a regular basis from both Internet and regular retailers simply prevents talented people from making the effort to publish books or produce merchandise because the ability to do that and make a profit has decreased. The result is that more crap appears and less good material appears." My wife has been in the travel business for 25 years and is extremely "talented". When people go online to book their trips, they're missing out on her travel experiences and price-searching competence thereby increasing their probability of receiving an inferior "product".

[Alain Roy]

Bobby wrote: Ill assume none of you purchase books from Amazon.com for fear of closing the local bookstores. Ill bet none of you purchase travel from online travel discounters because you want to help the local travel agency.

In fact, when I can support a local bookstore that isn't just a huge chain with an online presence (Borders/Barnes & Noble), I jump at the chance. I am sad at the small bookstores going out of business. I dearly love them. But they are disappearing.

I use a travel agent for anything complicated, and I love it. But the fact that the airline no long support them and I have to pay a lot more to use them is a disincentive. But for anything complicated, it's definitely worth the price and the savings in my time.

I am a strong supporter of local businesses. I buy my chicken and eggs from the farmer down the street, my cheese from the local dairies, and my nails from the local hardware store. If there was a local magic store, I would frequent it.

-alain

[magicbar]

I am new to this thread but the discussion points are perennial. On one hand you have a business that needs sales to stay open while providing an income for the owner and employees. On the other, you have customers that want magic shops for both personal and professional reasons. I worked for Ken Gross in the 1970-80's (in LA, California) and he noted there were specific types of customers. Real professionals, he noted, didn't buy anything. Amateur hobbyists bought everything. Kids with grandparents were the best.

He told me he wanted to have a place where magicians could come and gather to discuss and enrich each other but that didn't pay the rent. Shops could probably do more of this if they sold coffee or lessons to fill the cash drawer.

The original post cites poor service in any business, not just a magic shop.

As per the discussion of internet or other outlets leading to the demise of brick and mortar shops nothing has been said of how the top magic media publishers offer as good or better deals than the prices they offer their retail customers. Why don't they list the shops where their products can be purchased instead of promoting how they will beat all prices with free shipping to boot?

Imagine if in other industries the OEMs (original equipment maufacturers) routinely underbid or unfairly price fixed their products to the rest of the industry. Perhaps we should only support those that NEVER compete with their customers. But then where would we get the mountain of new releases by all the championship-winning magicians and starlets of magic?

[magicbar]

oh yes, visit magic world in chatsworth, california. many visit and hang out to share ideas and john the owner is a friendly guy that does an incredible job with the space he has - they have been in business for about 30 years. they also host lectures and support the local magic clubs.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
Maybe he just wants to get out of business with YOU.

Heh. I used to have to fire customers all the time when I worked retail.