John Edward's "Crossing Over"

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Dustin Stinett » April 6th, 2007, 12:20 am

Craig,

Since you dug up this old thread, I will dig up an old post that, in 2002 when I wrote it, said everything I needed to say about John Edward (and, just for bonus points, his colleague in deception James Van Praagh). Nothing that has occurred over the last four-plus years has changed my thinking on the matter.

I will add, however, a comment on something you said. That JE has no victims.

Someone who pays money under false pretenses, even if they are a believer and does not realize it, is a victim and the perpetrator is still a thief.

I should note that the thread from which my post comes (and to which you contributed as well) was ultimately locked because it became vitriolic. I hope readers of this thread will learn from that one, and keep things under control.

Thanks,
Dustin

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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 1:04 am

So, you're saying that you have knowledge as to the methods of mentalists, but John Edward is a "real" psychic?? There is nothing wrong with belief per se, but mentalism and the entire idea of "spiritualism" is founded upon confessed fraud. I have yet to see anything from JE or anyone else that did not fit with cold reading or other, known methods. What exactly was your purpose in reviving this old thread? We are not likely to be converted...

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 2:03 am

Although this dicussion focuses on John Edward - it relates in a way to Uri Geller as well.

The magic community has long seen Geller as 'evil' for claiming what he does to be real.

Why is this ?

Why do the magic community generally have a need to preface their presentations with 'what you are about to see is just a trick'

Many laypeople truly do belive that David Blaine levitated - they don't however believe Copperfield can fly. Where does the difference lie ?

Is Geller okay because he only bends spoons ( a harmless activity some may say ) while Edward deals with raw emotion and deceased love ones - or do most feel that anytime you claim what you to do to be real - you are a fraud ?

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 6:14 am

Anytime you claim what you do to be real, if in fact it's not, you are a fraud. That's the very definition of the word, is it not?
Let it be said, however, that, undoubtedly, some frauds are less harmful than others, and some not harmful at all, but that wouldn't make them any less fraudulent.
If you do not like the idea of disclaiming your magical abilities as genuine, then simply do not say one way or the other and let the individuals present arrive at their own conclusions. I've often done this, but whenver asked directly, I always state that I am only performing iluusions and nothing more.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 9:42 am

The magic community has long seen Geller as 'evil' for claiming what he does to be real.

Why is this ?
Uri Geller has made a life and a career of openly telling people that he has supernatural powers while using magic tricks. He has become rich and famous doing this.
He is no different than any other charlatan psychic.

People may believe whatever they want about David Blaine or David Copperfield, but neither claims supernatural powers. In fact, Copperfield will openly admit that what he does are illusions and will not claim any supernatural powers. (I don't know about Blaine, but I'm pretty sure he would deny special powers as well.)

It's the difference between right and wrong.

Gord

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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Brian Marks » April 6th, 2007, 11:18 am

Blaine admites to doing tricks but he loves to mess with people. He does want to blur the line. I have never heard him claim to actually have "the gift".

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 11:31 am

A while ago after Time magazine and TV Guide came out and said what JE did was a little less than real, there was a great article on some people that went to a taping of his show. Outside of the fact they thought the audience area was "bugged" (nothing new here). The taping took a long time due to all the "misses and fishing".

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 2:03 pm

Bob Cassidy has pointed out more than a few times, that prior to the early and mid-1970s the majority of those that were in fact "Mentalists" NEVER worried about or used Disclaimers, they marketed themselves as being genuine Telepathists, Mind Readers, Clairvoyants, etc. The fact that what they did was for the sake of "Entertainment" was DELIBERATELY down played though alluded to because of the psychology used for doing this sort of work PROPERLY. Magicians want to do tricks where the Mentalists creates a kind of magical experience that defies the idea of trickery in the mind of the typical human being.

I do not, nor do most of my associates, all of whom are noted members of the magic & mentalism trade, are not con artists or swindlers and I'm willing to bet most of us have done far more when it comes to predatory types than most anyone that would condemn us for doing Readings and even Seance programs that take on the taint of being genuine. From a psychological level I still agree with Stephan Minch and many others out there; what we are seeing via our critics is little other than fear and jealousy. Fear in the fact that they don't have the ability within themselves to do it e.g. they must vent. This brings us to the jealousy side of the equation in that "they" do not have the ability to exploit the known tools and aspects of Mentalism to their advantage at the vocational level.

Now I did not "re-open" this thread, it was on top of the current lists and so I replied. But I do want to stress a couple of things...Firstly, I'm all for going after anyone that's a genuine predator I don't care if they call themselves Psychics or if they claim to be the Pope, if they are abusing folks with deliberate intent, bust them! Tar & feather them... Hang'm from the highest tree. BUT LEAVE THE LITTLE GUYS ALONE!

There really are honest people doing honest and very sincere work when it comes to being a Reader or counselor and there are many reasons why the public trusts us over those pedigreed and certified types... but then statistically they trust their barbers, favorite bartenders and total strangers more than they do clerics and shrinks. In all truth, they/we do some good and too, even the shut-eyes out there keep their eyes peeled and their ear's opened when it comes to the more agressive and dangerous predators... the one's that give everyone a bad name.

I do not believe proving or disproving the existence of anything along these lines is important, nor is it our business when it comes to being showmen. As I've expressed elsewhere, it is not our right to step up to the microphone and tell everyone in the room that they are idiots if they believe in Psychics, God or Astrology, etc. and yet, many of you here will defend the right of certain schmucks in magic to do just that vs. taking the more mature and responsible -- honorable -- position in which the patron is respected and there to support us.

In other words, we aren't here to be Evangelists for the Atheists Society or the claims of any one cult that wants everyone as angry and miserable as its founder. That's my one "issue" around the issue.

The contentions held by a rather impressive number of personalities within the more traditional side of magic when it comes to this issue, is what has driven so much of mentalism underground and kept so many of the real "non-commercial" types away from the magic world. The bias and prejudice put forth by the cynical creating that tension within our fellowship that has cost us all far more than they or anyone it will seem, wants to acknowledge. And though there has been an odd sort of agreement in recent years, between the two elements (more out of commercial prospect than anything other), this division still exists and seems to be growing... a fact that has gotten more than a few out there up-set when it comes to the issue of exclusivity and limited release of materials.

But too, more and more of us are pulling back and pulling out. Going back to the old ways of true mentalism vs. these magic shows with psychic-like tricks in them that we see so much of now days.

Anyhow... I don't want this to turn into another mud slinging contest either. Not do I plan on being a batting dummy for all the bullies that want to uphold "the company line" when it comes to such.

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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Dustin Stinett » April 6th, 2007, 3:21 pm

Posted by Craig Browning:
Now I did not "re-open" this thread, it was on top of the current lists and so I replied.
As my son says, I call shenanigans! (His genteel way of calling BS!)

To whom did you reply? The last post before your April 5, 2007 post was made December 11, 2001. Unless you are insinuating that someone else posted then inexplicably deleted it prior to my reply to you. There was less than four hours between our posts and I waited before replying to see if anyone else jumped in. Then I decided to search for my old post. Given that I was monitoring the site last night and did not see this thread on the active list until your post, I find that scenario highly unlikely, albeit not completely impossible.

So, before I call your comment completely disingenuous, I would ask that our mystery poster who retrieved this thread from the other side (and then deleted his/her post in the short time between Craigs post and my reply) to please contact me.

Thanks,
Dustin

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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Ian Kendall » April 6th, 2007, 3:46 pm

I'm a wee bit concerned about this bit:

There really are honest people doing honest and very sincere work when it comes to being a Reader or counselor and there are many reasons why the public trusts us over those pedigreed and certified types...

Craig, are you saying that we should turn a blind eye as you 'councel' people? Can you let us know your councelling qualifications? I know several people that are professional councellors, and I've seen the training they had to go through. If you are supplying this service to customers without the proper training, under the auspices of 'psychic phenomena' or not, then I think you do need to be tarred and feathered.

However, if you and your colleagues all have taken councelling courses and gained the relevant qualifications I'll be happy to take the tar off the stove.

Take care, Ian

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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 7:24 pm

First let me state I don't believe in none of this type of nonsense.

Van Praag (sp?) had, at least a few years ago, a producer who was a magician/mentalist and a nice guy. I asked him point blank if he believed that Van Praag had powers and he replied "Listen, I'm not going to make myself look dumb by saying I believe in that stuff but I will say Van Praag does a good show". Not sure what he meant by that but it does make one wonder.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 7:31 pm

Dustin... I don't know how the thread came to the top of the "new" and active posts list but it did... I don't have time to search through the archives and pull something up just for the sake of doing so. When I logged in, looked over the main menu, this thread was at the top as the most recently posted to... not something I'd done so please stop pointing fingers and accusing me of stirring a pot in said manner.

Ian... I'm not going to play this game as I've already stated and for reasons already stated. However, I do have legit credentials and I have worked as a "real" counselor and I have likewise helped "save" people that were being drugged and cruelly manipulated by some of those legitimate types just as I've helped break up and prosecute the genuine criminals that hide behind a psychic or spiritual cloak. Unlike most cynics of today's world, I've done more than read books; I've literally put my life on the line investigating and helping various law enforcement agencies break up the crooked operators. When I have critics who can stand toe to toe with me on that front, I might give them a bit more value of thought. To date 99% of the opinionated sort in magic have done NOTHING other than read books and magazine articles and chant the various Mantras approved by the JREF.

For the record, I was a Drug & Alcohol Rehab Counselor when I lived in L.A. and likewise worked with Run-Aways and Troubled Teens as well as Grief Counseling. I have a Doctorates Degree in Religion & Metaphysical Philosophy based on Life Honors/Life Achievement. Theology and the study of the world's religions/philosophies has been a "hobby" of mine since I was in Junior High as has Psychology and general human behavior studies. Most all of this and even my passion for magic, stem from a personal quest -- investigation into the surreal, as it were and why certain folks seem to have particular "sensitivities" that are more pronounced than others.

DO NOTE that I do not call any of this "Powers" or "Blessings" or any of the like. I believe that a good 97% of it all can be explained and too, I believe that most of us are guilty of using the wrong terms when it comes to explaining what we see, experience, etc. I've not the space here to explain it all but I do delve into this issue in both, my new PSYCHIC TECHNOLOGIES Manual that was just released and in a couple of my other up-coming books that deal with the art of being an effective Reader.

I'll also point out that when I perform and even when I do Readings or lead a class in "Psychic Development" my real goal is to help my patrons understand how we mislabel and misapply terms, ideas and even the "fantasy" of it all. I get rid of the boogieman and help them see the logical and understand what it seemed mystical and "more" in times long gone by.

I'm not that far "out there" and I'd appreciate it if you would at least act like your minds aren't welded closed when it comes to this issue. The number of you that have shunned and even discolored the honorable work of people like Richard Webster, Herb Dewey, and others of note, who are Readers, who do legit lectures and workshops on this and related topics and who have given to the magic industry at levels few of your more outspoken heroes can match.

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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Dustin Stinett » April 6th, 2007, 7:39 pm

I have been contacted and there was another post prior to Craig's. I stand corrected and offer my sincere apologies to Craig for questioning him on his comment on the resurrection of this thread. The worst part is, I deleted the post! It was an obscure political post and I didnt put it together with this thread; but I do remember the post.

My thanks to the member who refreshed my memory and again, apologies to Craig.

Dustin
(Still thinks John Edward is a scoundrel who victimizes his followers under the guise of comfort.)

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 8:28 pm

Van Praag(sp) uses the same ploys used in the movie "Leap Of Faith" with Steve Martin. Only in the movie the character has a crisis of conscience and turns out, presumably, OK.

I have been accused of being a person with The Power and even after telling this group of fervent believers that i just did tricks they still didn't believe.

If I had gone, became their spiritual leader and demanded money offerings to "Teach" them the way would I be called a charlatan censored? Sure and deservedly so. It's humbug I tell ya!

Craig, do you charge for your "teachings" and books? If so, Then I have to question your motives. Obviously, in case one of your students would happen upon any of your posts you need to keep the correct face on. Your monetary future depends on it.

If I am wrong I apologize in advance if not, of course I don't.

Bryan

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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 8:36 pm

Anyone here read the crystal ball exercise in Trance-Formations?

Oracles have their place.

Sad to see them used for such base entertainment as watching other people grieve in public.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 8:50 pm

Craig Browning wrote:
Bob Cassidy has pointed out more than a few times, that prior to the early and mid-1970s the majority of those that were in fact "Mentalists" NEVER worried about or used Disclaimers, they marketed themselves as being genuine Telepathists, Mind Readers, Clairvoyants, etc. The fact that what they did was for the sake of "Entertainment" was DELIBERATELY down played though alluded to because of the psychology used for doing this sort of work PROPERLY. Magicians want to do tricks where the Mentalists creates a kind of magical experience that defies the idea of trickery in the mind of the typical human being.
I used to watch Dunninger on television. This would have been in the 1950's. He always used a disclaimer. The reason for it was that there was a movement to ban anything that reeked of fortune-telling, which was illegal in many communities.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 6th, 2007, 11:14 pm

I believe David Hoy, though performing a very strong brand of mentalism, would introduce his performances by telling the audience that he was a fraud. Of course, this did nothing to disuade the true believers...

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 6:06 am

Most of those listed thus far as "examples" are the higher profile commercial showmen. Seems that we've forgotten about the others involved with Mentalism that worked the trenches vs. the limelight as commercially "safe" product.

Too, I've yet to see where anyone is addressing what Nelson, Flora, Webster and others have been encouraging and selling more than a few books about over the past few generations... seems you all want to side step the fact that this is still part of Mentalism and an active means by which to garner personal income that has been approved of and used regularly since the early 1900s to present.

I find it funny, what people will do and what they ignore when it comes to their hypocrisy.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 8:03 am

I don't think anyone here is being hypocritical. I think they're giving their opinions. The majority of us simply do not see any evidence of anything, yet, which goes beyond known techniques and simple intuition, coupled with knowledge and a smidge of creativity.
That's all.
And we happen to believe that to claim one has abilities beyond these at the expense of others' feelings and/or wallet is, well... not cool.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 9:30 am

"If you do not like the idea of disclaiming your magical abilities as genuine, then simply do not say one way or the other and let the individuals present arrive at their own conclusions."

Magicians seem to enjoy the above option to ease their conscience. Many of today's mentalists don't provide a disclaimer nor do they say what they do is real. They say nothing at all.

But is the very act of omission the same as claiming what you do to be real if by this very omission many in your audience will believe that you have the 'gift' ?

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 10:36 am

David Hoy, aka Dr. Faust, in his later years appeared on the radio and television as a clairvoyant. He moved from the mentalism venue into prognostication. In fact, his Q and A Act consisted of the audince members standing up, asking their questions out loud, and he would answer them. No blindfolds, clipboards or any of that skullduggery. Just his native talent. I know this bothered a lot of his contemporaries.

I know of a well-known mentalist and creator of mentalism effects who tells his audience: "What you are about to see is a true miracle. When you go to work tomorrow, you can say to your coworkers, 'Last night I witnessed something truly miraculous.'" This bothers some of *his* contemporaries... :D

John R

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 11:11 am

Craig Mitchell wrote:

Today's mentalists don't provide a disclaimer nor do they say what they do is real. They say nothing at all.
Banachek and Derren Brown, who I think most would agree are among the very top performing mentalists today, both use disclaimers. Banachek frankly states that he uses the ordinary five senses to create the illusion of a sixth, while Derren Brown admits to using a mixture of psychology, trickery and showmanship to entertain. Both are openly skeptical of psychic claims.
I don't think it can be claimed that the modern trend is away from disclaimers.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 11:18 am

The five-senses-to-create-the-illusion-of-a-sixth line was Ned Rutledge's, one of our lost geniuses. Banachek does indeed deliver it well.

Oddly enough, Ned believed in certain paranormal areas, including some types of alternative healing. Mentalism is indeed a weird and wonderful field.

John R

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 2:02 pm

John Edward was on Larry King Live on Sep 10th, 2001.

NO ONE SPIRIT FROM THE SUMMERLAND bothered to "Cross Over" and say "Hey, tell my nephew not to go to work tomorrow."

NOT ONE.

Cut the crap, Craig. "Readings" are a great way for failed performers to eke out a car payment here and there, and that's it. (Unless, of course, they are either crazy or criminal, like JE, JVP, SB, and any damned one else who trades their pathetic lies for money. THEN the bucks can really roll in, just like they do for the frauds from the other side of that same coin, like Benny Hinn.)

Period.

P&L
D

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 2:26 pm

I'll be a bit more open minded...all I need is proof.

Bryan

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 4:42 pm

I agree completely, Bryan. As soon as someone takes Randi's money, or tells me the pet name either my great-grandmother, or my great-aunt called me by, I'll be the first to happily admit to newfound belief.

Until then, it's all a great, stinking ball of lying crap.

And no, I DON'T have to "respect other people's beliefs"! (See? I'm psychic! I knew what the thieving con artists were about to post!) ESPECIALLY when such "beliefs" are as valid as a geocentric universe, or flat earth.


P&L
D

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 4:52 pm

I was part of Randi's team that investigated Peter Popoff, the phony "faith healer" with the radio prompter in his ear.

I've also investigated other faith healers for magazine articles and was a special consultant to CBS News for a report on faith healing.

A previous poster asked for proof. Well, there isn't any that people are being healed, but there is a lot of evidence for fraud.

W.V. Grant would find old people and put them in wheelchairs and roll them down front. He would "heal" them and have them walk around using the principle of dual reality. The audience would go crazy.

I had a camera crew when Charles and Frances Hunter hit Seattle. Frances made a 30-minute pitch for donations, really beating everyone over the head to pony up the cash. Five-gallon paint buckets were used to collect the money. The crew and I followed the growing numbers of ushers literally carrying buckets of money. We got a glimpse of the counting room with tables that had piles of cash. We were stopped at the door by the Hunter's son-in-law who wouldn't let us go any further. I couldn't estimate their take except it had to be in the tens of thousands of dollars.

The point of all of this is that it exploits human weakness and fears, exploitation by people who are venal in the extreme.

George Bernard Shaw probably said it best when he looked at all the braces, canes, and wheelchairs at the Shrine at Lourdes and observes, "All those canes, braces and wheelchairs and not a single glass eye, wooden leg, or toupee."

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 8:32 pm

I believe that a good 97% of it all can be explained....
Name any unexplainable "psychic" phenomenon, and I'll name an explanation.

I'd like to see some "psychics" try and read a subject they have never seen and never heard before. That would eliminate the possibility of cold reading. Kind of a read-the-person-in-the-next-room-over-test in a controlled environment. The only problem is, none of them would submit to such a test, as failure would be the outcome. :whack:

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 10:05 pm

Name any magic trick and I'll give you an explanation. It may not be correct, but it will be an explanation.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 10:21 pm

I think Craig raises a valid point in that theres a definite trend/philosophy dominating magicdom which indicates that anything paranormal is a trick or scam and that anyone who believes in anything that isnt scientifically approved is a fool. Its ironic, really, that magicians, who are supposed to be the purveyors of mystery, are instead going out of their way to lay mysteries bare.

I dont condone what Edwards does I think hes a charlatan who preys on those in grief, and thats about the worst kind of thing you can do to my way of thinking. But why is it the business of an entertainer to proclaim that there is no god and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded? Seems kind of silly to me and more than a little egotistical. Edison said, We dont know a millionth of one percent about anything. If our knowledge of our world and the universe is truly limited then how can we be so certain of whats possible and whats not? Is it possible to be so blinded by our limited knowledge that we shut our minds off from even contemplating the impossible? It would seem so, judging by some of the things said here. The future of magic seems bleak indeed when those pretending to be magic are unable to open their minds to its possible existence. Just my two cents.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2007, 11:36 pm

"It's a gift... A power that's within us all... I'm just a little more full-of-it!"

-- Harry Anderson, "Hello Sucker"

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 3:09 am

I for one never called anyone a fool. As a matter of fact to work a swindle usually takes a higher intelligence than the median. I enjoy a mystery but i hate someone trying to tell me what they are doing is really by supernatural means.

Bryan

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Dustin Stinett » April 8th, 2007, 3:10 am

The argument between magicians and paranormalists is centuries old, not something that came about in the last few decades. It can be argued that it started (in the English language) with Scots Discovery of Witchcraft, a book meant to enlighten a very ignorant public. When the Spiritualist movement caught on in the Nineteenth Century, magicians were debunking them almost immediately. I think its fair to say that, at the time, for some it was a turf war and certainly an opportunity to fill theaters with patrons via a new slant in their entertainments. But it was also to protect and inform the public from these talented frauds. Additionally, James Randi wasnt the first guy to offer a cash reward for a legitimate performance of the paranormal. That distinction, if memory serves, goes to J.N. Maskelyne.

Dustin

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 4:53 am

Jim, who in this thread said there is no God?
I didn't think that's what we were talking about.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 5:45 am

That's always been one of my favorite lines; "Name me an impossibility and I'll explain it..."

WE'RE F'n MAGICIANS, OF COURSE YOU CAN INVENT AN EXPLANATION OR METHOD!

99% of the time when a cynic can't explain things the "explanation" is "coincidence"... which isn't "scientifically valid". Then again, we have that little CSICop episode from a few years back, where the numbers were proving the psychic so the team dabbled with things only to get caught in trying to stack the odds to their favor... or has everyone conveniently forgotten about that little game of hide the biscuit?

I also find it amazing as to how many including fellow Skeptics, state very boldly about how rigged and non-scientific the Randi Challenge is... a FACT sustained by most genuine scientists. But hey, we have a bunch of non-scientists following another non-scientist simply because none of them want to believe in anything.

Everyone of you, including a couple of you I have considered to be friends over the years, are condemning me prior to knowing what I actually say or do both, in my shows and as a Reader.

One poster hit the nail fairly square on the head up above -- GUILT -- Stephan Minch spoke of this frequently and pointed out how it is the biggest reason why most magic enthusiast will NEVER get it when it comes to how to present effective mentalism i.e. mentalism that don't look like some corny trick.

You mention Derren and Steve... ask any layman to name a famous Mentalist... maybe, if you are talking to an older person, you'll hear them name Kreskin or even Dunninger (as Mind Readers) but is you ask them to name a famous Psychic, most all of them can name no fewer than three and frequently as many as twelve... granted, this is another reason for jealousy and loathing those that don't play by the magician's rules... after all, these folks are making an exceptional living doing what most of you haven't the guts to do... I'm not talking about running a scam, I'm talking about working in a very honest manner with people in a manner that they feel safe and comfortable with.

I hear you all jumping and screaming for proof, but even when it is presented, you will do all you can to disbelieve... because you don't want to believe... you don't want to humble yourselves enough to acknowledge that there may just be something greater than you in the whole of this Universe...things you can't and really don't need to explain, let alone explain away.

It never fails to amaze me how, I have have an intelligent and honorable conversation with someone like Banachek and even Randi (and the gods know I've kicked him in the rubber parts more than once)and for the most part, we walk away in agreement on what the real issue is, but put me in a forum with a group of armchair experts and voila! Accusations and assumptions get tossed in my direction by persons that have bought into an idea not because it's what they actually know or have investigated, but because they want to be part of the pack -- they want to fit in and not rock the proverbial boat.

Who's to say I wasn't pulling your strings to prove to each of you that this is the case and Dr. Pavlov is taking notes?

Who's to say I'm not trying to prove to many of you that you really don't know why you hold to this rather "evangelic" feelings when you have not personally gone further than a bookshelf or maybe some Skeptic's gathering here or there, to form "your" opinion?

Not one of you, outside maybe Riggs (who's cheating, he knows me better than most of you)has looked at what else I've said, only at what you don't want to hear or weigh... at least at the public level.

Randi & Co. have had their two and half decades of terror on this battle front. Now it's time for someone to speak up on the behalf of the believer, who has been shunned, demeaned, and essentially pushed to the side when it comes to the "society" of the magician. As I've said, I might not believe in what someone else claims testimony in, but I do believe things have gone way too far when it comes to how so many of US insult and devalue such things as the result of our fear, our arrogance, and our ignorance.

I personally think each of you need to re-read this thread and think over how you treat persons of faith; including those that believe in things psychic, metaphysical and mystical. I think any responsible and truly educated individuals wouldn't be lashing out as so many of you obviously can't help but do. But then, how many of you understand the full scope of what dignity, morality, decorum and honor are all about in the real world with real people, the majority of whom believe in more than human arrogance and intellect?

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 6:17 am

More historical anecdotal trivia: I have a book written by Dunninger himself, entitled What's on Your Mind? written for the public, in which Dunninger distances himself from fraudulent Mediums, Fortune-tellers and fake mind-readers (he describes Kreskin in great detail without actually naming him) and goes on to deny using trickery in his performances. He says he is a scientific practitioner of telepathy. I quote one passage from this remarkable and entertaining book: "I ACTUALLY READ MINDS!" When I was in the PEA, I used to point out that our hero violated many of our rules of ethical Psychic Entertainment and if he applied for membership today, would probably be denied. :D

The ethical dilemmas inherent in Mentalism arise in part because Mentalism evolved from the Spiritualist movement, which was in turn an urbanization of Shamanism. At about the same time, modern conjuring spun off in another direction. Shamanism is a spiritual practice whose taproots spring from the very heart of man's primordial quest for spiritual meaning. Before the "magicianization" of mentalism, when it became riddled with whimsical scenarios of Dream Dates and imaginary dinners, etc. the best mentalism performances resonated with our subconscious recognition of something big and powerful just out of our grasp, a primal force that if we just tried hard enough, we could obtain for ourselves. Playing with such strong emotional drives is a scary thing, and no wonder that an intelligent performer may feel a reluctance to evoke the full power of a Shamanistic experience without the use of illusion breakers, such as disclaimers or dumbing down the performance with weaker premises.

On the subject of grief, aren't we all in mourning? Every day brings us closer to the Final Silence. We lose loved ones and miss opportunities. Isn't the reason we watch entertainment to begin with is to gain a few moments of respite from our grief? Consider how much of human endeavor is a vain attempt to alleviate the problem of human suffering. Consider how futile our feeble attempts. And grieve.

Sorry for the interruption.

John R

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 8:48 am

John, don't confuse them with facts ;)

I find it hilarious as to the number of old timers they'll praise and talk about who actually had belief and talked about it... even a former Medium of the Magic Castle's famed Houdini Seance has a very interesting and personal Ghost Story pertaining to a manifestation that took place right there in the Seance Room... but people aren't supposed to talk about it.

I've always wondered how these book learned cynics would fair if placed into a genuine "Haunted" or "Occult" based setting for a night or two :eek:

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 9:02 am

Howard Thurston also held some rather out-of-the ordinary notions, especially toward the latter years of his life.

Something about this business that either attracts the more outre personalities or perhaps drives us to the Outer Limits over time ...

John R

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 9:09 am

Brown Hornet (John R) wrote:
More historical anecdotal trivia: I have a book written by Dunninger himself, entitled What's on Your Mind? written for the public, in which Dunninger distances himself from fraudulent Mediums, Fortune-tellers and fake mind-readers (he describes Kreskin in great detail without actually naming him) and goes on to deny using trickery in his performances.
WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND was published in 1944 when Kreskin was just 9 years old. You likely mean DUNNINGER'S SECRETS published thirty years later, in 1974. Both were written by Walter Gibson.

Guest

Re: John Edward's "Crossing Over"

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2007, 9:22 am

Quote:
Jim, who in this thread said there is no God?
I didn't think that's what we were talking about.

Randi says theres no god, as do Penn and Teller, which is indicative of the trend I was describing. The philosophy theyre advocating is the antithesis of magic there are no mysteries, and everything is explainable. What it all boils down to is intellectual hubris of the worst kind, and I find it absurd that those, who by their own staunch admission, do tricks would have the temerity to smugly proclaim that they have all the answers.

I think the real secret to Blaines success is that he was willing to blur the line, that he moved away from Randi and his ilk and started acting like a magician , like someone who can do magic, instead of treating his audiences as if theyre dull witted children who need to be educated. He doesnt claim special powers, but neither does he claim that everything seemingly magical is a sham -- he allows people the respect of reaching their own conclusions. Its an example many could learn from.


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