Forces

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Jack Shalom
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Forces

Postby Jack Shalom » October 11th, 2017, 6:53 am

Andy does a small focus group test, asking 22 people, "Which of six card forces seemed most fair?"

The results are surprising.

Sure, it's a very small sample, but it's worth reading and considering.

Your opinion?

http://www.thejerx.com/blog/2017/10/8/t ... -unleashed

performer
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Re: Forces

Postby performer » October 11th, 2017, 8:29 am

My opinion is that he shouldn't be exposing methods to laymen in the first place.

Jack Shalom
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Re: Forces

Postby Jack Shalom » October 11th, 2017, 10:04 am

Did you read how the experiment was set up? No exposure.

Aside from that, any opinion about which card forces are least suspicious?

performer
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Re: Forces

Postby performer » October 11th, 2017, 10:44 am

I did read about how it was set up. Even though there was no actual force made (with the exception of what he even conceded to be an important one) just showing the action used gives the game away and telling laymen that a card could be forced in the first place is disgraceful. There is so much tosh written by people on magic who haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The phrase "the blind leading the blind" comes to mind.

If you want to know how to present magic properly in an impromptu (or otherwise) close up situation THIS is what you should be looking at!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYiairhhoI

The first 14 minutes or so we are yapping about the art of grafting but from about 14.30 minutes in we talk about the CORRECT way to perform magic. And this has come from EXPERIENCE not the imagined blatherings of some amateur magician who performs two or three tricks a month and writes a blog full of profanity and tosh based on inexperience.

With regard to which method of forcing should be used the secret is to not overuse a particular principle. You allocate a particular force for a particular trick and keep to that. Some methods suit a particular effect and some don't. In general the classic force is the best one but I do think there is a tendency for it to be a bit over exposed by the internet and all the crappy magicians who give the game away. However, it is still the best one but it should be used sparingly and under no circumstances be repeated over and over in the same trick as I have seen some people do.

Jack Shalom
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Re: Forces

Postby Jack Shalom » October 11th, 2017, 12:27 pm

Mark, as Andy found out to his surprise, the concept of forcing a card was known beforehand by about 95% of the lay participants. So nothing was exposed.

One can perform many years and still be deluded as to what the audience has actually perceived or brings to the experience. Admittedly it's a small sample, but to actually learn an audience's honest opinion, is a good thing, to my way of thinking.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Forces

Postby erdnasephile » October 11th, 2017, 1:15 pm

I think the idea was very intriguing, and the article worth reading.

However, the methodological shortcomings make it hard to draw any firm conclusions about the hypothesis tested (e.g., underpowered study, arbitrary, non-validated rating scale, selection bias, vaguely-defined outcome measures, etc.). Moreover, from a purely magic point of view, the external validity of such data is suspect. For example, watching average Joe Blow magician do a Classic Force is a far different experience than watching Dani DaOrtiz do it. Secondly, I suspect it's very difficult to separate out the effectiveness of a force from the context of the trick and performance style in which it was used.

For me, this exercise is an interesting pilot study that suggests that a better designed study might find something useful (but perhaps only [or mostly] for the performer who is conducting the study).

performer
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Re: Forces

Postby performer » October 11th, 2017, 2:13 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:Mark, as Andy found out to his surprise, the concept of forcing a card was known beforehand by about 95% of the lay participants. So nothing was exposed.

One can perform many years and still be deluded as to what the audience has actually perceived or brings to the experience. Admittedly it's a small sample, but to actually learn an audience's honest opinion, is a good thing, to my way of thinking.


BALONEY! Of course the concept of forcing a card was known to his "participants" (or probably alleged participants) after he put the idea in their minds! And is babbling about it (as we are) on the internet. And even if they do know about it when they see a decent performer they never catch on anyway. I will concede that 95% of performers are not that decent so you may have a point, I suppose.

Besides I don't trust his "test" even if it exists in the first place which I highly doubt. It would take weeks to find that many people and conduct that many interviews. But even if it did happen the methodology of the test are highly dubious.

Now as to your tosh about someone performing for many years and still being deluded as to what people think I can assure you that is NOT the case with me. I am MARK LEWIS after all and it is my business to read people and know what they think. I know EXACTLY what people are thinking when I perform close up magic and not only that what they are ABOUT to think. I keep preaching that you have to manipulate the people and not the props. I make it my business, possibly my highest priority in fact to know what laymen are thinking. And I do. Every step of the way.

Besides the guy can't even do a classic force and admits it. I can and have done it thousands upon thousands of times. If I thought people knew I was doing it I would have given it up decades ago.

But I don't just do the classic force. I choose which method is appropriate for which trick. If I am standing up on a stage I will do the hindu shuffle flash force to someone sitting in the audience. If I am working in a quiet atmosphere where I don't have to work at a fast pace I will do a specific trick with a slower method of forcing a card behind my back where you palm a card. I can't be bothered explaining it but it is in both the Royal Road to Card Magic and Expert Card Technique. I have another trick where I only use the cross cut trick because the trick has an in built time misdirection which helps things.

The best advice I can give on this matter is to completely ignore the theoretical nonsense written on that blog and rely on the knowledge which has stood magicians down in good stead through the mists of time. Still, if you want to follow this rubbish there is probably no harm done. There is so much crap around in magic nowadays that a bit more won't make a lot of difference.

Mac Stone
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Re: Forces

Postby Mac Stone » October 11th, 2017, 6:55 pm

So when Andy mentions in the article the performers who repeatedly classic force, for apparent comedic effect, a chosen card we should infer that those audiences don't assume that they are being force to choose a particular card over and over again, and that they instead assume that any card they choose of their own free will and volition somehow magically transforms itself into the chosen card?

Any spectator with half a brain would obviously assume the latter and the notion that a magician could somehow force them to choose a particular card would be the furthest notion from their mind.


The knowledge which has stood magicians down in good stead through the mists of time is why we still have things with names like Jap Box.

Knowledge changes over time, thats why we know now that the Earth is round and that the solar system does not revolve around it.

Although Mark will probably disagree with that also.

performer
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Re: Forces

Postby performer » October 11th, 2017, 8:45 pm

I haven't read your post except for the last line but I am disagreeing with it in advance. It does save time that way.

performer
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Re: Forces

Postby performer » October 11th, 2017, 9:29 pm

I have now deigned to exert myself to read your post. However, it would seem that you have not read mine properly. Alas this is the sacrifice that genius has to make so I suppose I had better enlighten you further. First it would behoove you to realise that I am never ever wrong about magic. Second, it would further behoove you to note carefully that I have already dealt with the matter of repeatedly classic forcing the same card again and again. Do pay attention, there's a good chap.

For your convenience these are the words I wrote which you appear to have missed.

"However, it is still the best one but it should be used sparingly and under no circumstances be repeated over and over in the same trick as I have seen some people do."

As for the mists of time I haven't the slightest idea what the Jap Box has to do with the solar system and neither do I care. Come to think of it I haven't the slightest idea what a Jap Box is and neither do I care about that either. It reminds me of the time that I told Corinda that I had no idea what a coffee vase was when he asked me to fetch one for him when I worked for him. He couldn't believe I didn't know what it was and come to think of it I still don't know what the hell it is 55 years later. And neither do I bloody care either.

I do care passionately about magic though and I know rather a lot about it. And I know with complete certainty that magic is NOT progressing in these modern times but doing exactly the opposite. There has always been plenty of crap in magic in times past but there is a hell of a lot more of it nowadays than there ever was. And these daft theories about forcing is a prime example of that crap.

The past was far better. The best magicians are all dead. Come to think of it I don't feel that well myself.

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Forces

Postby Brad Jeffers » October 12th, 2017, 1:07 am

performer wrote:Besides I don't trust his "test" even if it exists in the first place which I highly doubt.

I somewhat doubt it myself.

On a scale of 0-100 I would rate my level of doubt at around 45.

If someone cares to delve more into this scientific study of "the most free and fair" selection of a playing card, I wish they would include the method where you ribbon spread a deck face down and have the spectator push forward any card of their choosing.

I would be interested to see what kind of fairness score this force would get.

performer
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Re: Forces

Postby performer » October 12th, 2017, 8:02 am

Oddly enough I was thinking about this force myself. You must be psychic! I know Johnny Paul used to do it quite a lot. I have tried it but have never got great results from it. I just don't have the knack somehow. I should probably work on it more but it doesn't quite fit my style. I imagine you have to have a sort of nonchalance and "not care" attitude to get it to work. I think it may well be the greatest force of them all if you can manage to do it properly. It possibly even exceeds the Classic Force in effectiveness. What could be fairer than tossing a deck out on the table and getting a card chosen from the spread? The card are not even in your hands!

Come to think of it that is exactly what I do with the svengali deck about 50 times a day! There is nothing fairer than spreading a svengali deck face down and asking for a card to be selected!

I have used Al Koran's brazen night club force and have been astonished at how well it works. I also like and use often a Vernon method of forcing which would be hard to describe here. I read it in one of the Ganson/Vernon card books. It works very well indeed.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Forces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 12th, 2017, 8:19 am

Perceived fair choice?
Maximum perceived available choices?

The force of denial can be very strong in these places.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Bill Duncan
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Re: Forces

Postby Bill Duncan » October 17th, 2017, 11:17 pm

Oddly I find myself mostly agreeing with Mark. Choose the right method for the moment, and do the work well.

That said Mark, how can you say laymen don't know about forcing? How many forcing decks have you pitched over the years?

performer
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Re: Forces

Postby performer » October 18th, 2017, 8:20 am

Some laymen do know about forces but not because of the svengali deck. I don't sell it as a force deck but as a deck that changes to the same card. Besides as soon as they get it home they play with it for half an hour if even that and stick it in a drawer never to be seen again.

No. Laymen know about forces because of the fact there are too many "magicians" around. Too much internet and exposure in books not to mention those awful magic camps where they teach children things they shouldn't know about, not to mention starving magicians giving magic lessons to all and sundry to supplement their income. Of course secrets get around. Magic is supposed to be a secret art but no longer. Orson Welles predicted this trend decades ago and opined that it would harm magic and it certainly has.

Still, if you are a showman and understand people you can get over this trend to a degree. And if you know what you are doing you can force cards on people without them realising it whether they have heard about forcing or not.


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