Your Go to Trick or Routine

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby performer » August 9th, 2017, 6:05 pm

I STILL don't know what the effect is! I shouldn't worry about people figuring out the method. I doubt they will even figure out the effect!

However, with regard to concealing methods it seems from what I am surmising that you have a bit of a guilty conscience when performing. A good magician needs an adequate supply of audacity and bluff. It is amazing what you can get away with if you use a bold approach. You can fool people with the most obvious and simple devices, subtleties and methods. I have even accidentally turned over double faced cards and they didn't notice.

I once showed grumpy old Al Goshman something I came up with in a spellbound routine where you actually TELL the people you have an extra coin (I know perfectly well that they are thinking this anyway) but it makes no difference as the changes keep happening. And you SHOW the extra coin! So two duplicate coins are out there visible for all to see. I figured that it wouldn't register with people's brains that there were actually two duplicate coins right in front of them and they were both visible for only around 5 seconds or so anyway. Goshman growled that people would see two coins. However, I knew perfectly well he was wrong since I was Mark Lewis and he wasn't. I only showed it to him because it was a new idea in my mind. However, it is no longer new and I have been doing it for decades ever since. The moral of the tale is never to listen to other magicians (unless of course it happens to be me). The second moral of the tale is that with audacity and bluff plus a knowledge of how people's mind work you can do miracles and the secrets will go undetected.

Bill Mullins
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Bill Mullins » August 9th, 2017, 9:44 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:I will not stultify you with specifics, but without these sort of “sidetracks”, it would be all but impossible to achieve the effect.


Unless you did Hoy's "Bold Book Test". (Same effect, a lot less messing around.)


Hoy's method is similar up to a point, Bill. The point where the performer lies about which page the volunteer chose. Trying to assure the audience that such chicanery is not going on, you see?


Oh, I agree that the method is different. But the effect is the same: Spec picks two random books, you divine a word from one of them.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Brad Henderson » August 9th, 2017, 9:47 pm

who would think you would lie about the page number ?

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby performer » August 9th, 2017, 10:19 pm

Indeed. Don't run when nobody's chasing you.

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby jkeyes1000 » August 9th, 2017, 10:27 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
Unless you did Hoy's "Bold Book Test". (Same effect, a lot less messing around.)


Hoy's method is similar up to a point, Bill. The point where the performer lies about which page the volunteer chose. Trying to assure the audience that such chicanery is not going on, you see?


Oh, I agree that the method is different. But the effect is the same: Spec picks two random books, you divine a word from one of them.



Well, when you say the effect is the same, you are speaking only of the elements of the routine rather than the impact of it. Hoy’s approach is poorly conceived from a logical standpoint.

Why ask the volunteer to pick two books? Nothing is done with the other. It is an obvious ruse to give the performer the chance to peer into the book before he hands it to the volunteer.

In my presentation, the reason is that both books will be used in a mutual experiment.

Hoy suspiciously handles the book like a deck of cards, the old “stop me” bit. Which never impressed me and I don’t think it ever impressed anyone.

And on top of that, the audience must take the magician’s word for which page was selected! Lame.

In my presentation, I don’t “sneak” a look at the book. I explain, as the volunteer seeks another book, that he or she may decide which section to focus on. As I do this, I divide the pages with my fingers into several partitions, as if offering the first hundred, the second hundred, or the third. In actuality, I am indexing as many FORCE PAGES. That is to say, page 51, page 151, and page 251. When the volunteer chooses one of the page ranges, I can quickly locate the appropriate FORCE PAGE and commit it to memory, close the book and hand it to the participant, making it clear that what I meant by “his book” was the book that he would be trying to read remotely, thus the one I ought to be holding.

As for the dreaded “algorithm”, I don’t know how often it has been used in magic, but I think it quite clever. I have a chart printed on the backboard of a scrátch pad that I carry about with me. In one column are all the odd numbers from 1 to 101. In the opposite column, all the numbers from 99 down to 3. When the volunteer announces his favourite number, I pretend that I had written the diametric. They all add up to 102 (say 63 and 39), so that when divided, the result is 51. No maths required! In fact, I invite the volunteer to calculate it with me, and I always “get it wrong”, so he or she ends up correcting me! Nice touch, don’t you think?

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 10th, 2017, 12:55 am

jkeyes1000 wrote: They fail miserably, but I get it right.

This type of denouement is not something that I'm particularly fond of.
I do like the "I get it right" part.

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby jkeyes1000 » August 10th, 2017, 5:37 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote: They fail miserably, but I get it right.

This type of denouement is not something that I'm particularly fond of.
I do like the "I get it right" part.


I actually congratulate them on a good try, after giving them numerous hints. It is obvious however that they never would have got it. It's not a humiliation thing.

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby performer » August 10th, 2017, 8:21 am

At least with the Hoy version I can understand the effect. It sounds like you are doing the Hoy effect with the "mental haze" aspect. I still can't figure out the effect from your description but if it is the same as the Hoy effect I will go with that.

The truth of the matter is that every trick, even classic ones have weaknesses. There is no such thing as a perfect trick. You deal with the weakness through your showmanship, knowledge of psychology and ability to entertain. And most importantly your ability to BLUFF! That is generally enough to overcome the problem. The trouble is that it is very tempting to try to improve things and as a result make things even worse. As Al Baker once said, "Many a good trick has been killed by improvement". Like the sock -------oh never mind!

The key to a good trick is that it should be DIRECT! The method does not necessarily have to be simple but the plot should be. And the effect should be clear cut without too many distractions and complicated presentations. Sure, the extra book is a weakness but if by trying to eliminate that weakness you make things even worse by adding more weaknesses then it is best to suffer the original weakness and stick with that for better or worse.

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby jkeyes1000 » August 10th, 2017, 8:56 am

You can do my “Impromptu Book Test” without the subliminal idea and eliminate a lot of the patter. You could pare it down to a few minutes if you are a fast talker.

It breaks down essentially as a free choice of two books. The volunteer is asked to decide which section of the book to focus on if it is over 100 pages (the book should have at least a hundred, that is one of the few stipulations. I justify this by suggesting that we make it a sufficient challenge but not an overwhelming one).

The books are flipped or “riffled” before each other’s eyes to impress the subconscious with the contents.

Now a page number is mutually agreed upon. The volunteer may choose any number that was within the given range. These numbers may be either odd or even, depending on whether the book was flipped from front to back or vise versa. Supposing front to back, their choices would be 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc., to 101. You simply reciprocate by favouring a number that (unbeknownst to them) is its diametric opposite. For instance: he says 35, you say 67. Both numbers are added together (102) and divided by two which gives you your FORCE NUMBER of 51.

Only one set of numbers is necessary, but I like to give them plenty of options.

It is only a matter of inviting them to try to read your book, after which you “show them how it is done”.

Simple enough, Mark?

Brad Henderson
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Brad Henderson » August 10th, 2017, 9:32 am

jkeyes,

i don't think you understand anything about magic or how it works. You clearly don't understand anything about the hoy principle. i wish i could help you. But i know that you are incapable of learning. you are the student whose cup is already full. Perhaps when you get older and mature some more you will realize that your understanding is woefully misguided.

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Tom Gilbert » August 10th, 2017, 9:56 am

"OK. I just read the description. I still don't know what the effect is. I was almost following things until the dreaded instructions to jot things down. I got completely lost at that point. And then the awful word "algorithim" did me in completely."

The last sentence made me spit coffee. Thanks Mark.

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby performer » August 10th, 2017, 9:58 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:You can do my “Impromptu Book Test” without the subliminal idea and eliminate a lot of the patter. You could pare it down to a few minutes if you are a fast talker.

It breaks down essentially as a free choice of two books. The volunteer is asked to decide which section of the book to focus on if it is over 100 pages (the book should have at least a hundred, that is one of the few stipulations. I justify this by suggesting that we make it a sufficient challenge but not an overwhelming one).

The books are flipped or “riffled” before each other’s eyes to impress the subconscious with the contents.

Now a page number is mutually agreed upon. The volunteer may choose any number that was within the given range. These numbers may be either odd or even, depending on whether the book was flipped from front to back or vise versa. Supposing front to back, their choices would be 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc., to 101. You simply reciprocate by favouring a number that (unbeknownst to them) is its diametric opposite. For instance: he says 35, you say 67. Both numbers are added together (102) and divided by two which gives you your FORCE NUMBER of 51.

Only one set of numbers is necessary, but I like to give them plenty of options.

It is only a matter of inviting them to try to read your book, after which you “show them how it is done”.

Simple enough, Mark?


NO!

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby performer » August 10th, 2017, 9:59 am

Brad Henderson wrote:jkeyes,

i don't think you understand anything about magic or how it works. You clearly don't understand anything about the hoy principle. i wish i could help you. But i know that you are incapable of learning. you are the student whose cup is already full. Perhaps when you get older and mature some more you will realize that your understanding is woefully misguided.


Brad. I do agree that I think Mr Keyes is going on the wrong path. However, having said that there is no need to be rude to him.

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby jkeyes1000 » August 10th, 2017, 10:13 am

Brad Henderson wrote:jkeyes,

i don't think you understand anything about magic or how it works. You clearly don't understand anything about the hoy principle. i wish i could help you. But i know that you are incapable of learning. you are the student whose cup is already full. Perhaps when you get older and mature some more you will realize that your understanding is woefully misguided.




Oh, you wish alright, but not because of my incapacity.

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby jkeyes1000 » August 10th, 2017, 10:32 am

Perhaps I over-explain things, Mark. It is very straightforward, virtually the same as any book test from the audience's perspective. I like to think that it is more "honest" and transparent-seeming than most. Like I said, the concept is to dispel the notion that it is a trick. This naturally calls for a little extra "debunking", but if you want to play it as a trick, you may. The only real distinction is in the type of force.

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 10th, 2017, 10:54 am

Just wondering... Are there no members who's go-to trick is Card to Wallet? Or the Cups and Balls or the ID? Or even perhaps Ring Flight? There have been quite a few times over the years when spectators have told me how blown away they were the time they chose and signed a card which was then shuffled into the deck, and somehow it ended up in a zippered compartment of the magician's wallet - that it was the most amazing trick they had ever seen...

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Brad Henderson » August 10th, 2017, 12:49 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:jkeyes,

i don't think you understand anything about magic or how it works. You clearly don't understand anything about the hoy principle. i wish i could help you. But i know that you are incapable of learning. you are the student whose cup is already full. Perhaps when you get older and mature some more you will realize that your understanding is woefully misguided.




Oh, you wish alright, but not because of my incapacity.


i refer you to your own posts as evidence and happily rest my case.

if you encounter that the audience is thinking you lied about the page call, you are doing it wrong.

and to think someone will think about a miscall as a method and not simply attribute it to a mathematical game is - well, i don't have a word for it.

but hey, keep believing that the flip subconsciously does anything.

come back to us after 1,000 performances for live audiences. or heck, come with me to a bar mitzvah and let's see you do it for a 13 year old.

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 10th, 2017, 3:45 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:If you had the opportunity to perform just one trick or routine ... what would it be?


If I knew about the occasion in advance - a custom version of Steve Dusheck's UPCT.
As much as I'd want to show off a coin item... it's what the audience gets from a trick that counts... so again I'd go for ... probably the Thumb Thing version (unless "this four card trick" plays better than that).
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Tom Frame
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Tom Frame » August 10th, 2017, 4:08 pm

My "Son of Hyper-Warp."
"There is more to consciousness than meets the mind's eye." - Frame

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby jkeyes1000 » August 10th, 2017, 5:01 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:jkeyes,

i don't think you understand anything about magic or how it works. You clearly don't understand anything about the hoy principle. i wish i could help you. But i know that you are incapable of learning. you are the student whose cup is already full. Perhaps when you get older and mature some more you will realize that your understanding is woefully misguided.




Oh, you wish alright, but not because of my incapacity.


i refer you to your own posts as evidence and happily rest my case.

if you encounter that the audience is thinking you lied about the page call, you are doing it wrong.

and to think someone will think about a miscall as a method and not simply attribute it to a mathematical game is - well, i don't have a word for it.

but hey, keep believing that the flip subconsciously does anything.

come back to us after 1,000 performances for live audiences. or heck, come with me to a bar mitzvah and let's see you do it for a 13 year old.


Mr. Henderson, your bombastic statement was that I have no understanding of “how magic works”, and clearly none of how The Hoy Principle does. And you presume that I have no experience with performing my own book test.

You rest your case? What case? You have given no examples in support of any of these claims.

Any magician familiar with “The Bold Book Test” will instantly know that the performer is deceitful, regardless of how “right” you are doing it. And many laymen will as well.

And even if the performer flips to the actual force page (which may be easily done), it is still lame. It is not hard for anyone to figure out that a book test relies on some kind of force, and to let the magician’s own handling of the book determine the page number is a yawn.

Tell me where I erred, O Wise One. I won’t !et a blowhard !ike you “rest your case” with such dubious nonsense casting aspersion on my perfectly sensible remarks.

As for what I think of my own method, I think it is the best way to achieve the effect with ungaffed books. It allows the volunteer to make virtually all the choices. The books, the section of the book, whether it be flipped from the front or the back. And it allows them to “think a number”. It seems on!y fair that the volunteer and the performer compare numbers and “split the difference” to arrive at a seeming!y random page. It may technically be an “algorithm”, but if anyone in the crowd suspects, then you are doing it wrong.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Brad Henderson » August 10th, 2017, 8:43 pm

everything you value is wrong. you also clearly have no idea how to lie - which is why you need to create mazes. As michael weber noted, "the shortest distance between two points is a straight lie."

now tell me HE doesn't know what he is talking about.

you think like a magician who thinks like a magician.

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Re: Your Go to Trick or Routine

Postby Doomo » August 10th, 2017, 9:48 pm

I guess that for me one of my go to favorites would have to be any named card in a wallet that the speccy is holding .. no off by one shtuff and no gaffed cards.
RFA Productions yeah... It is cool stuff.

www.rfaproductions.com


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