On the Pass

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F.Amílcar
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Re: On the Pass

Postby F.Amílcar » April 29th, 2017, 5:42 am

Richard,

Just a question for to know more about the pass. What book in year 1799 appears for the first time the pass?

Thanks beforehand for your answer.

Sincerely,

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Ted M » April 29th, 2017, 11:06 am

From the Conjuring Credits website:

The earliest instruction [of the Pass] in the context of conjuring appears in Edme-Gilles Guyot's Nouvelles Recreations Physiques et Mathematiques, 1769, p. 1 of the Hugard translation (unpublished).

http://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.ph ... with_cards

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 29th, 2017, 11:06 am

I don't know.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby F.Amílcar » May 1st, 2017, 12:34 pm

Dear friends,

Thanks for your comments, references and for your time.

Truly yours,


F. Amílcar Riega i Bello.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 1st, 2017, 12:55 pm

Oddly enough I have just been watching videos of a street magician doing close up magic at a table in the street. He seems to be doing the Pass time after time after time and having no trouble getting away with it. No misdirection-nothing. A magician would notice the slight giveaway with the hand movements but I don't believe a layman would. Of course on the street there is a general relaxation of attention but I think even if they looked at his hands they wouldn't notice anything untoward.

I am fascinated by his way of working. Just a table and a chair sitting down in the street doing card tricks! What a wonderful way to work! I have never seen a busker work that way before. It reminds me of the way I used to work when I was young doing card tricks for hours on end but not in the street and for no money whatsoever. I am not sure if this fellow does what buskers call "hat lines" or if he is simply doing what he seems to be doing. That is putting out a bowl for tips and not saying a word about money with people just putting the money in as they feel like. the grafter in me wonders whether he makes much money in the manner he is working. He must do I suppose as I get the impression that he has been doing it that way for years.

I also wonder if he just continues without stopping until people drift away or until he gets tired and needs a break or whether he does a formal show in that manner with a beginning and an end.

I know he is famous among magicians but that is not what concerns me. I am not even interested in his tricks or technique and I only watched them cursorily since my interest in that sort of thing has long since passed. However, I am VERY curious about his manner of working and I wonder if anyone knows much about it. I am reluctant to post a video of him since everyone will lapse into discussions of his tricks and techniques while what I really want to know about are the questions above. Still, I have no doubt that someone will post a video anyway and I shall just have to put up with it.

Yes, yes---I know how well he does the pass but who the hell cares? I want to know if the chap makes any money. I do have my priorities you know!

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Re: On the Pass

Postby HocoPoco » May 1st, 2017, 3:25 pm

Recently, I have re-engaged with the Turnover Pass and it's multitude of variants--including center reverses (Marlo?)

This pass may be one of the most over-looked, utilitarian sleights of all time, primarily because of its perceived angle issues (sensitivity? yes, issue? no). However, it is so diverse because of the myriad of actions possible.

PLUS, you typically have the "logical cover" of turning over a deck.

And, certain variants make for beautifully, visual card transformations.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 1st, 2017, 5:37 pm

Yes indeed. I actually use it for just one trick. The Dr Daley one with the four aces in the Stars of Magic. I can't remember the title.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 1st, 2017, 6:10 pm

Alex Pandrea does the best Turnover Pass I've ever seen.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 1st, 2017, 6:19 pm

OK. Here you are. He does the pass about 5 times or so here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtYI30MXgYM

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Re: On the Pass

Postby HocoPoco » May 1st, 2017, 6:59 pm

Alex Pandrea "Turnover Pass"

https://youtu.be/rDofulhlr3g?t=5

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » May 2nd, 2017, 6:42 pm

performer wrote:Oddly enough I have just been watching videos of a street magician doing close up magic at a table in the street. He seems to be doing the Pass time after time after time and having no trouble getting away with it. No misdirection-nothing. A magician would notice the slight giveaway with the hand movements but I don't believe a layman would. Of course on the street there is a general relaxation of attention but I think even if they looked at his hands they wouldn't notice anything untoward.

I am fascinated by his way of working. Just a table and a chair sitting down in the street doing card tricks! What a wonderful way to work! I have never seen a busker work that way before. It reminds me of the way I used to work when I was young doing card tricks for hours on end but not in the street and for no money whatsoever. I am not sure if this fellow does what buskers call "hat lines" or if he is simply doing what he seems to be doing. That is putting out a bowl for tips and not saying a word about money with people just putting the money in as they feel like. the grafter in me wonders whether he makes much money in the manner he is working. He must do I suppose as I get the impression that he has been doing it that way for years.

I also wonder if he just continues without stopping until people drift away or until he gets tired and needs a break or whether he does a formal show in that manner with a beginning and an end.

I know he is famous among magicians but that is not what concerns me. I am not even interested in his tricks or technique and I only watched them cursorily since my interest in that sort of thing has long since passed. However, I am VERY curious about his manner of working and I wonder if anyone knows much about it. I am reluctant to post a video of him since everyone will lapse into discussions of his tricks and techniques while what I really want to know about are the questions above. Still, I have no doubt that someone will post a video anyway and I shall just have to put up with it.

Yes, yes---I know how well he does the pass but who the hell cares? I want to know if the chap makes any money. I do have my priorities you know!

I actually used to do this long before I ever heard of "street magic". And believe it or not it did pay quite well.
N.B. Without the passes of course.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 2nd, 2017, 6:59 pm

I have received more information about the matter. It seems he does not do any hat lines. Just the bowl with the money in it is enough. They pay when and if they feel like it without prompting. And it also seems there is no set show. He just keeps going until he gets fed up or the audience do. You can keep going for hours that way I imagine. I rather like the idea. I just don't know if there is any money in it.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » May 2nd, 2017, 7:00 pm

That is an excellent Turnover Pass.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » May 2nd, 2017, 7:02 pm

performer wrote:I have received more information about the matter. It seems he does not do any hat lines. Just the bowl with the money in it is enough. They pay when and if they feel like it without prompting. And it also seems there is no set show. He just keeps going until he gets fed up or the audience do. You can keep going for hours that way I imagine. I rather like the idea. I just don't know if there is any money in it.

Yes that is how I always did it. I much preferred it to "busking". I was never disappointed with the money.
And there was a certain freedom to it.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 2nd, 2017, 7:11 pm

Interesting. Thank you for the information. I rather like the sound of it. How did you get the first people to watch in the first place?

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 2nd, 2017, 7:15 pm

He even seems to do the cups and balls that way. A rather good version too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=estUuSq1RHg

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » May 2nd, 2017, 8:18 pm

Not a whole lot to be honest. Sometimes I would just practice until passersby got curious and stopped to watch. Other times I would just sit there with a pack of cards in front of me. It wouldnt take long before a couple would stop to see what it was about.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » May 2nd, 2017, 9:35 pm

But back to the pass, Howie Schwarzman's is the best I've (not) seen in person apart from Dingle. But when I saw Dingle I never new weather he was "passing" or not. So maybe his was the best Ive never seen.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 2nd, 2017, 9:51 pm

Howie would fake it as often as he actually did the Pass. Thus most folks never knew if they were looking at his incredible Double Lift, or his incredible Pass. He has tiny tiny hands, but when he "hits" on the Pass, it's truly invisible.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 2nd, 2017, 11:37 pm

magicfish wrote:Not a whole lot to be honest. Sometimes I would just practice until passersby got curious and stopped to watch. Other times I would just sit there with a pack of cards in front of me. It wouldnt take long before a couple would stop to see what it was about.


Did you get around the same size crowd as Bebel as shown in the video I posted?

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Re: On the Pass

Postby HocoPoco » May 3rd, 2017, 7:06 am

RE: Howie Schwarzman
Howie performed the pass for me in the following manner: Card selected, card replaced, deck immediately dropped to table. Per Richard, if he actually performed the pass, it was awesome. And, the dropping the deck to the table logic holds up just fine.

Richard, thank you for the updated write-up on Dingle's Riffle Pass. Great contribution!

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Tom Gilbert » May 3rd, 2017, 7:42 am

Also regarding Howie and his tiny, tiny hands. I was bemoaning the fact that I have small hands so Howie bet his were smaller, they were but by just a little. He asked if I've ever read Erdnase, to which I said yes, and he then became a living version, showing me about 15 to 20 moves out of the book, all flawless. Incredible lesson from Howie.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » May 3rd, 2017, 9:46 am

HocoPoco wrote:Alex Pandrea "Turnover Pass"

https://youtu.be/rDofulhlr3g?t=5


Thanks for posting this--there's absolutely nothing to see when he does his pass. (First time also I've seen a money back guarantee for a download).

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Re: On the Pass

Postby webbmaster » May 3rd, 2017, 11:29 am

Casualness, which takes experience to achieve, does a lot at disarming viewers. Also, figure ways to enlighten your viewers that finding their card is not the be-all-and-end-all of their trick...it is what ELSE happens during the middle and end of the trick that makes it magical instead of just puzzling.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » May 3rd, 2017, 12:42 pm

I don't perform for magicians much, but inevitably some make their way into the bar to "check me out." On those occasions, I like to tell them about the new invisible pass I've been working on (not to be confused with Harry's wonderful invisible pass, which is an adaptation - very deceptive - of the old gambler's hop). Mine is quite simple: I just do Marlo's Convincing Control, then a little riffle, and it is so much fun to watch the reaction...

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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » May 3rd, 2017, 2:43 pm

Tom Gilbert wrote:Also regarding Howie and his tiny, tiny hands. I was bemoaning the fact that I have small hands so Howie bet his were smaller, they were but by just a little. He asked if I've ever read Erdnase, to which I said yes, and he then became a living version, showing me about 15 to 20 moves out of the book, all flawless. Incredible lesson from Howie.


Are Mr. Schwarzman's hands smaller than Mr. Lorayne's? (Just curious, since Mr. Lorayne has mentioned his hand size often in his writings).

Also, did Mr. Schwarzman ever publish anything about his magic or his pass techniques? (The only writings I've ever read directly from him were his great MUM columns--some of those stories he related were hilarious. I've also seen stuff in some Lorayne publications, but not much else)

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 3rd, 2017, 3:03 pm

The story I like the best about Howie Schwartzman was the time he attended a trade show and told trade show legend Eddie Tullock he would not make it in the trade show business because among other things he used bridge sized cards. He had no idea who he was talking to...........

When he found out it seems he made a hasty exit.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby prodigy » May 3rd, 2017, 8:27 pm

Mike Powers posted a video on Howie Schwarzman doing his passes at the 1987 St. Louis Jubilee here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... c=578408#0

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 3rd, 2017, 9:24 pm

I've seen Howie's Pass look better than in that video. But it's a good representation of how good he was.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » May 3rd, 2017, 9:53 pm

prodigy wrote:Mike Powers posted a video on Howie Schwarzman doing his passes at the 1987 St. Louis Jubilee here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... c=578408#0


Very cool--thanks for posting that. He's really funny (and skilled). I also noticed that he (like Dingle) didn't curl the left finger under. The palms were just as impressive as the passes. I was also heartened to notice that his hands are about the same size as mine. ;) I also was interested to hear him say something to the effect that some moves just aren't good for everybody.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby fausstroll » May 4th, 2017, 5:33 am

performer wrote:
magicfish wrote:Not a whole lot to be honest. Sometimes I would just practice until passersby got curious and stopped to watch. Other times I would just sit there with a pack of cards in front of me. It wouldnt take long before a couple would stop to see what it was about.


Did you get around the same size crowd as Bebel as shown in the video I posted?


Bebel has a real sense of timing and a feels where the audience focuses its attention. It is also true for his palming. Even for the routines you already know, and even if you know that he will do his pass, he manages to do it when you are off gard. This is something that you can not see on videos, but which is really where you are live.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 4th, 2017, 7:32 am

Indeed. I have to confess that I wasn't really watching his tricks and it was all in French so I wouldn't have understood it anyway. I was more concerned with the concept he was using of plonking a table and chair down in the street and getting to work. So it isn't the magic I was particularly interested in so I can't comment on that. I have heard criticisms of him that to me did not seem valid but I just shrugged my shoulders at them because perhaps the critics could see something that I couldn't.

One chap told me that Bebel just performs for himself on the street and doesn't really involve the spectators. I didn't see any particular evidence that this criticism was valid but maybe I am missing something. And I saw a video interview where Gazzo thought Bebel works too fast. I don't speak French so I really have no idea but from what I saw this didn't seem to be correct either. Perhaps it was the cups and balls he was referring to since I have seen other comments that it was too fast. I didn't think so but what do I know?

In general I think that if you are an established performer and your audiences seem to be liking you it is probably a very good policy indeed of completely ignoring the opinions of other magicians as half the time they don't know what they are talking about and the other half of the time their opinions are motivated by bias and ego. I have always said that the trouble with magicians is that they think their opinions are important. And 90% of the time they aren't. Except mine of course.

I just liked the concept of sitting down at a table and doing card tricks and other magic without even trying to get money out of people and letting it just appear anyway without any coercion. A nice quiet gentle way of working that I would love to employ rather than the more aggressive style I have to use as a trade show worker or a svengali pitchman. I miss the old days when I would just sit at a table and perform in a quiet, almost shy, absent minded style and allow the audience to bully and heckle me and turn the tables on them. I would let them underestimate me then I would go in for the kill. The reaction was fantastic and I was working in a completely different style. I am nothing like that nowadays and I want to go back in time.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby HocoPoco » May 4th, 2017, 9:57 am

Appreciate the Howie Schwarzman video link.

He gave a mini-lesson in expert card technique---listen to all of his comments and stop motion the video during the sleights. Nice stuff.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Tom Gilbert » May 6th, 2017, 9:28 pm

Bob White was telling me Charlie Miller swore by the Charles Bertram pass. Anyone familiar with it? It's in a book by C. Lang Neil. Charlie told him the description was very good, accompanying pictures terrible.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Jackpot » May 6th, 2017, 9:48 pm

Tom Gilbert wrote:Bob White was telling me Charlie Miller swore by the Charles Bertram pass. Anyone familiar with it? It's in a book by C. Lang Neil. Charlie told him the description was very good, accompanying pictures terrible.


Is the pass you are asking about "Bertram's Square-up Invisible Pass" as described in "Magic and Methods of Ross Bertram"?
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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 6th, 2017, 10:19 pm

Jackpot wrote:
Tom Gilbert wrote:Bob White was telling me Charlie Miller swore by the Charles Bertram pass. Anyone familiar with it? It's in a book by C. Lang Neil. Charlie told him the description was very good, accompanying pictures terrible.


Is the pass you are asking about "Bertram's Square-up Invisible Pass" as described in "Magic and Methods of Ross Bertram"?


Two different Bertrams one would think. One had a beard and one didn't.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 6th, 2017, 10:36 pm

Then it would be in C. Lang Neil's "The Modern Conjuror."
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Re: On the Pass

Postby Jackpot » May 6th, 2017, 10:41 pm

performer wrote:
Jackpot wrote:
Tom Gilbert wrote:Bob White was telling me Charlie Miller swore by the Charles Bertram pass. Anyone familiar with it? It's in a book by C. Lang Neil. Charlie told him the description was very good, accompanying pictures terrible.


Is the pass you are asking about "Bertram's Square-up Invisible Pass" as described in "Magic and Methods of Ross Bertram"?


Two different Bertrams one would think. One had a beard and one didn't.


As often is the case Performer is correct.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » May 7th, 2017, 4:51 am

I was actually in a room once with Ross Bertram. I never spoke to him directly but I overheard his conversation with Bruce Posgate, a very well known children's entertainer. It was in a magic shop and there were some young guys sitting at a table doing all sorts of hot shot technical stuff. I heard Ross say "I can't keep up with the sort of stuff they do nowadays. It is way beyond me" I was astonished to hear this acknowledged master of technique say this and I remember thinking, "Well, if Ross Bertram can't keep up with this stuff, what chance have I got!" To this day I use very few techniques in my card work although I do know a great many. I don't suppose I use more than 5 sleights on a regular basis. You don't need them although a vast knowledge of techniques does give you certain advantages not least of which is a sort of metaphysical one. You somehow transmit to the people that you are an authority on sleight of hand even though you are not using much of it. They somehow sense that you are an authority on a subconscious level.

The first time I heard about Ross Bertram from a live human being was from an agent I worked for in Canada. I had heard all about Bertram for years because of the Stars of Magic publication. I was taken aback when she mentioned he did the substitution trunk as it didn't fit my image of him. I asked if she had the name right and she indeed did.

Years later after he passed away I bumped into a woman who watched me selling svengali decks. She told me her husband was a magician and it turned out to be Ross Bertram. She seemed to be irritated that he hadn't been given enough credit by the press or something and I vaguely remember she was trying to organise something or other about it so he could be remembered.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » May 7th, 2017, 10:47 am

There are two Charles Bertram techniques offered by Neil in this wonderful text.
The first is a two handed "classic" style pass while the second is a one handed pass akin to the Charlier. According to Neil, Bertram learned the shift from Charlier himself.


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