On the Pass

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
webbmaster
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On the Pass

Postby webbmaster » March 27th, 2017, 1:44 pm

I just recently screened Richard Kaufman's On The Pass video for the first time in a long while and I just wanted to say that it really has held up and is an excellent piece of work. For all the guys looking at Erdnase, try to get a copy of this to really see how the real work evolved. By the way, I have always heard of the Christ Twist, as a way of helping cover the turnover pass, but I may be wrong.

Does anyone know how the Christ Twist (Henry Christ) ties in with the pass ? And again, Richard's video is one of the best produced tapes I've seen, even now.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 27th, 2017, 2:30 pm

We have an article on the Pass by Jim Swain coming up in the May issue.
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erdnasephile
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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » March 27th, 2017, 2:51 pm

Whoop!!!! :D

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » April 25th, 2017, 6:13 pm

Very much looking forward to this article Richard.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 25th, 2017, 6:44 pm

Webbmaster wrote: "I just recently screened Richard Kaufman's On The Pass video for the first time in a long while and I just wanted to say that it really has held up and is an excellent piece of work. For all the guys looking at Erdnase, try to get a copy of this to really see how the real work evolved..."

I wholeheartedly agree! It is an important piece of work. When I first purchased it many years ago, I was aware of how prolific and illustrious (no pun intended) Richard was as an author, illustrator and publisher, but I was blown away when I first watched the video because, until then, I had no idea that he could handle a deck of cards, and in particular, execute the pass[es] that well.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 25th, 2017, 8:15 pm

I've been practicing again because I have to give a lecture on the Pass in Italy next month.
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erdnasephile
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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » April 25th, 2017, 8:45 pm

Richard:

Just curious (if you're willing to share): after not doing the pass for a while, how much practice (i.e., how long) does it take you to get back into trim (i.e., exhibition level)?

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 25th, 2017, 11:10 pm

I can always do it, it's just that when not practicing I only hit a good one every fifth or sixth time.

To answer your question: months.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby Jason England » April 26th, 2017, 12:22 am

It looked pretty damn good at Blackpool 2 months ago. I think RK doing the pass at 80% is better than most other people's 100% efforts.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » April 26th, 2017, 5:13 am

The key to the pass is to do it when nobody is looking at your hands.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby webbmaster » April 26th, 2017, 10:25 am

True for lay audiences. But I remember Geof Latta doing the pass for magicians as a 'card rises bit by bit up through the deck with one magician holding onto the protruding end of the card that rises' and the method was a number of passes of small amounts of cards, and I couldn't see it.

So maybe it is more like 'if your pass isn't great...make sure no one is looking' myself included. So, Geof had a great pass as well as Richard, and Derek, and Doug Edwards, that I've seen...and the guy with the Brick Pass.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 26th, 2017, 10:32 am

Perhaps the most valuable and useful things I ever learned in regard to misdirection are (1) that "They will look where you look," and (2) Addressing a comment or a question to a spectator is a very strong diversionary tactic. Used in combination, the two foregoing principles result in super-strong misdirection, i.e. looking directly at a spectator as you address a comment or question to him/her. Then only that rare spectator, whose sole focus is to try and "catch" you - who is adamantly intent and hell-bound upon busting you - will continue burning your hands...

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » April 26th, 2017, 11:15 am

Oh, I don't perform for other magicians. I have never understood why anyone would want to do that but each to their own. I believe if you make a habit of it there is a possibility it can affect your work for laymen if you are not very careful indeed. In any case I am very sceptical about invisible passes. You can always tell when something fishy has happened. Either some little flicker gives it away, or perhaps the body language of the performer, or something in his speech makes you smell a rat. In any case misdirection should be used whether you deem your pass to be undetectable or not. Why take a chance?

Oh, and as for the rare spectator who burns your hand as Alfred mentioned. The solution for this is very easy if you are using the pass as a card control. You can't be "waiting a week" as per the Max Malini advice otherwise the audience will have either gone home or fallen asleep with boredom. The secret is very simple. You already have a break so just split the deck and go into a riffle or overhand shuffle. If it is not being used for a card control then I have no idea what you should do. Possibly kick the spectator in the shins to distract him or alternatively stamp on the floor and say, "damn cockroaches!". There is always a way.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 26th, 2017, 11:48 am

My goal in learning the Pass is to do it so that it isn't seen when people are looking at the deck. I succeed more often than not with more practice.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » April 26th, 2017, 12:10 pm

Richard. It is the "than not" that would make me nervous. Paul Le Paul also stated that one should aim to perform sleights that require no misdirection other than the misdirection inherent in the move itself. In other words no misdirection. I think that is an extremely daft idea.

Having said that I think that if someone watched me make the pass the odds are that they would think nothing out of the ordinary had occurred except a slight flicker that they might just accept as a natural toying with the cards. Particularly if I do a sort of riffle pass. However, I am just not going to take chances so I prefer to use misdirection. And I have always disbelieved the tosh that you should never shuffle the deck after doing the pass since nothing is supposed to have happened. People underestimate the intelligence of laymen and after I do the pass as a control method I always shuffle them just in case they have the slightest whiff of suspicion. Why take chances?

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 26th, 2017, 3:53 pm

Most people would agree with you, Mark.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » April 26th, 2017, 4:11 pm

Can I ask some respectful questions please?

1. If we have decided we are going to shuffle after doing a pass, wouldn't it be the same as doing a control that involves a shuffle? Wouldn't what the layperson perceives to be essentially the same (i.e., "I replaced my card then the magician shuffled the cards.") under both procedures? To change that perception, wouldn't we have to employ a diagonal palm shift, followed by a spectator shuffle? ("I replaced my card, then I shuffled the cards.")

I'm not saying that one should not shuffle the cards after the card is replaced, but one of the big strengths of a classic pass is that nothing changes in the eyes of the audience. Doesn't shuffling right afterwards mostly negate that strength?

2. When using the riffle pass, shouldn't it be accomplishing something overt? (i.e., a change or magical moment of some type). Otherwise, aren't we just riffling the pack and nothing apparently changes? I suppose that wouldn't be the case if the performer has established riffling the cards as a habit during the performance, but that would strike me as rather annoying.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 26th, 2017, 5:07 pm

You do not shuffle after doing a Pass.

Riffling the deck is an action like snapping the fingers, or a gesture.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 26th, 2017, 6:22 pm

In the eyes of many laymen, once a card has been selected and returned to the deck, the magician then controls that card. They may not be able to specify how and/or when that card was controlled, but they believe (and justifiably so) that the magician is able to contrive to get that card to the top or bottom or wherever. So whether the control is a pass, a double undercut, an overhand shuffle control, splitting the deck at the break and doing a riffle shuffle followed by a false cut(s), there will be suspicion, even if not detection, that the card was controlled.

IMHO, the best (I'm not so sure I will go so far as to say "only") way to satisfy the spectator(s) that the card is truly lost is to hand the deck to them to shuffle to their heart's content. If using a regular deck, this would necessitate either (1) _ a _ m _ n _ or (2) putting a c _ i _ p or (3) f _ r _ i _ g, the card in the first instance. I generally choose (1).

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 26th, 2017, 8:13 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:IMHO, the best (I'm not so sure I will go so far as to say "only") way to satisfy the spectator(s) that the card is truly lost is to hand the deck to them to shuffle to their heart's content. If using a regular deck, this would necessitate either (1) _ a _ m _ n _ or (2) putting a c _ i _ p or (3) f _ r _ i _ g, the card in the first instance. I generally choose (1).


I'm beginning to get the hang of Alfred's encryption system, but #1 has me stymied. What on earth is it?

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Re: On the Pass

Postby magicfish » April 26th, 2017, 8:44 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:You do not shuffle after doing a Pass.

Riffling the deck is an action like snapping the fingers, or a gesture.

Agreed. If you're going to shuffle, there is no sense doing a pass in the first place.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Jack Shalom » April 26th, 2017, 9:02 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:IMHO, the best (I'm not so sure I will go so far as to say "only") way to satisfy the spectator(s) that the card is truly lost is to hand the deck to them to shuffle to their heart's content. If using a regular deck, this would necessitate either (1) _ a _ m _ n _ or (2) putting a c _ i _ p or (3) f _ r _ i _ g, the card in the first instance. I generally choose (1).


I'm beginning to get the hang of Alfred's encryption system, but #1 has me stymied. What on earth is it?


There is a space before the or.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby John M. Dale » April 26th, 2017, 10:05 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:IMHO, the best (I'm not so sure I will go so far as to say "only") way to satisfy the spectator(s) that the card is truly lost is to hand the deck to them to shuffle to their heart's content. If using a regular deck, this would necessitate either (1) _ a _ m _ n _ or (2) putting a c _ i _ p or (3) f _ r _ i _ g, the card in the first instance. I generally choose (1).


I'm beginning to get the hang of Alfred's encryption system, but #1 has me stymied. What on earth is it?


I can answer that. I'm going to just state it since The Chief Genii has repeatedly said in the past that discussing methods is allowed on this board unlike over on the Green Demon and, since Alfred is a relative newbie here, he may not be aware of this. (Richard, if you've changed you mind & I've overlooked it. Let me know and delete this.)

Palming is the word your looking for.

JMD

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 26th, 2017, 10:35 pm

DISCUSS METHODS, please.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 26th, 2017, 10:46 pm

Thanks John! I finally caught on to Alfred's encryption about an hour ago. I was never any good at Hangman...

I'm partial to the Dribble Pass. When done correctly, it cannot be detected and the unsquared condition of the cards after the pass leaves room for possibilities on where to go next.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » April 26th, 2017, 11:13 pm

magicfish wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:You do not shuffle after doing a Pass.

Riffling the deck is an action like snapping the fingers, or a gesture.

Agreed. If you're going to shuffle, there is no sense doing a pass in the first place.


CORRECT! There IS no sense doing the pass in the first place! At least not if you are using it as a control since there are so many easier and more effective methods around. Unless of course you are one of those daft "magicians" who use this move for self satisfaction rather than the satisfaction of your audiences. However, it is unwise procedure to always use the same method of controlling a card repeatedly so for this reason I use the pass as an alternative method of control my procedure. However, when doing so it is VERY advisable to shuffle afterwards for reasons that I will explain shortly. Please remember that I am the expert in these matters. I have given tremendous thought to this. If I say something it is for a very good reason.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » April 26th, 2017, 11:37 pm

Dearie me! It appears that I shall have to educate the masses on these matters. Still, some of us are born to lead and some of us are born to follow. I fully accept that many of you know a lot about how card tricks work. However, it also appears that many of you know little about how the human mind works. I do. It is how I make my living.

You should most certainly shuffle the cards after doing the pass for "just in case" reasons. Insurance if you will. It can't hurt and it can often help. When a card is replaced you have to convince people that the card is in exactly the same place they put it and that nothing has changed regarding the position of cards in the deck. However laymen aren't stupid. Sometimes they are convinced everything is hunky dory and sometimes they are not, particularly if you have used fancy handling or flourishes for other tricks. Alas magicians are dreadful at deluding themselves as to what a layman is actually thinking. They delude themselves that the layman is convinced without any shadow of a doubt that no card in the deck has changed position. However, I know better. MUCH better!

Think about this for a moment and try and be objective without falling into the trap of self delusion. When you do the pass you either use misdirection or you may feel that your pass is so technically perfect that you can do it safely with people burning your hands. Let us take the first and more common option. Hasn't it occured to you that a layman who is misdirected enough to look away for a second might wonder what happened when he looked elsewhere even on a subconscious level? A vague feeling of uneasiness that he does not articulate? Of course he bloody does and even if you are daft enough to think he doesn't why take chances? Shuffle the deck and watch his features relax and see his body language change, perhaps imperceptibly to those who are not as perceptive as a genius like myself.

The other possibility where you believe that your pass is so imperceptible that they can actually watch you doing it is even more iffy. First because they probably do sense something. They don't know what happened but they know something has happened. But even if I am wrong (which of course never happens) then why take chances anyway? There is nothing so calming to the mind of the spectator as seeing you mix the cards after the selected card is out of your hands.

Trust me on this. I have been doing this stuff a long, long time and I have given a lot of thought to it. And that thought is based on experience working to PEOPLE.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » April 26th, 2017, 11:49 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:In the eyes of many laymen, once a card has been selected and returned to the deck, the magician then controls that card. They may not be able to specify how and/or when that card was controlled, but they believe (and justifiably so) that the magician is able to contrive to get that card to the top or bottom or wherever. So whether the control is a pass, a double undercut, an overhand shuffle control, splitting the deck at the break and doing a riffle shuffle followed by a false cut(s), there will be suspicion, even if not detection, that the card was controlled.

IMHO, the best (I'm not so sure I will go so far as to say "only") way to satisfy the spectator(s) that the card is truly lost is to hand the deck to them to shuffle to their heart's content. If using a regular deck, this would necessitate either (1) _ a _ m _ n _ or (2) putting a c _ i _ p or (3) f _ r _ i _ g, the card in the first instance. I generally choose (1).


Alfred. You don't need a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Which is what palming and diagonal palm shifts would do. Or handing out the deck to be shuffled slowing everything down. If someone is burning your hands and you want to do the pass then the procedure is obvious. You already have a break so you simply transfer the deck to your right hand now transferring that break to the right thumb and you then do the overhand break control. Now because the person is suspicious you then continue with the method I previously mentioned elsewhere of running three cards on top and showing those cards asking if the selected one is there. Then you show the bottom few. Anyway I have already explained this.

In any case the pass should only be used as a secondary control or perhaps not even used at all as a control method. I feel that I might as well use it since I mastered the bloody thing in ten minutes because of the teaching of Professor Hoffman. It is very useful for other things but as a control not so much as it is a bit outmoded and there are so many easier possibilities available. However, if you are going to use it then always shuffle the cards and don't delude yourselves that nobody suspects a thing so it isn't necessary. It bloody well is. Just in case...................

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Re: On the Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 27th, 2017, 12:07 am

I guess I may need to re-evaluate. The tactic of running 3 cards onto the selection and then showing it is not at or near the top nor bottom strikes me as a very good one, which I will try...

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 27th, 2017, 12:33 am

John M. Dale wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote: If using a regular deck, this would necessitate _ a _ m _ n _

Palming is the word your looking for.
I felt sure it was daemons.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby performer » April 27th, 2017, 5:55 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:
John M. Dale wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote: If using a regular deck, this would necessitate _ a _ m _ n _

Palming is the word your looking for.
I felt sure it was daemons.


I have finally figured it all out. It has taken me a couple of days to do it though. I did figure out number one pretty quickly but the latter two took a bit of effort. One is palming, two is crimp (at least I think so) and three is forcing. I feel like I have just solved a crossword puzzle. Alfred might have just invented a wonderful parlour game for magicians!

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Re: On the Pass

Postby John M. Dale » April 27th, 2017, 11:47 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:
John M. Dale wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote: If using a regular deck, this would necessitate _ a _ m _ n _

Palming is the word your looking for.
I felt sure it was daemons.


That's ok Brad. My first thought for:

MagicbyAlfred wrote:(3) f _ r _ i _ g, the card in the first instance.


Was "farting" which made no sense at all unless it's a unique misdirection technique.

JMD

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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » April 27th, 2017, 1:34 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:I guess I may need to re-evaluate. The tactic of running 3 cards onto the selection and then showing it is not at or near the top nor bottom strikes me as a very good one, which I will try...


Daryl's ambitious card routine starts exactly in this way.

Also, thanks to those that weighed in on my first question--I concur (and that has been my feeling regarding using the pass as a control)

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 27th, 2017, 2:00 pm

The Pass is the finest control. Top or bottom and instantaneous.
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Re: On the Pass

Postby erdnasephile » April 27th, 2017, 4:15 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:DISCUSS METHODS, please.


Thanks! (Reading ], turtle, sh_ll or the like in certain locales is somewhat tiresome)

Back to methods: I've practiced the Dingle Riffle pass ever since it first was published in the big book. However, I've always wondered how sliding the left thumb to start the pass squares with the Professor's dictum to do the pass the instant the hands come together.

Personally, I think when used in the additional context provided in the current Genii description (i.e., Dingle threw the upper cards on to the bottom and everything was unsquared prior to the pass), the time to slide the left thumb makes total sense--since it's a squaring action of unruly cards. Therefore, I don't think what Vernon says applies in this particular case. Am I totally off base here?

While I'm on the subject: whose idea was it to hold a wedge break after the card replacement in readiness for a delayed pass?

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 27th, 2017, 7:18 pm

erdnasephile wrote:While I'm on the subject: whose idea was it to hold a wedge break after the card replacement in readiness for a delayed pass?


The late Dr. Ken Krenzel? He describes that wedge break in his Pass video and it's also in Card Classics of Ken Krenzel. A classic book and a great videotape on learning this move.

To add to Alfred's 3 alternatives to the Pass, the magician can g _ i _ p _ e the selection before allowing the spectator to shuffle the deck.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 27th, 2017, 11:26 pm

Sideways wedge break is Krenzel's as far as I know.


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Re: On the Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 28th, 2017, 12:26 pm

Leonard Wrote: "To add to Alfred's 3 alternatives to the Pass, the magician can g _ i _ p _ e the selection before allowing the spectator to shuffle the deck."

That is an excellent suggestion. I did have to glimpse it for a minute or so to decipher it. Perhaps we may end up making this into a parlor game for magicians, after all, per Performer's suggestion, sort of like games you can play with your cat. Could market it at the conventions etc. Hmmm, I wonder who we could get to pitch it?

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Re: On the Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 28th, 2017, 1:22 pm

PS to previous post.

Performer does have me convinced that it might be unnecessary to have the spectator shuffle (unless, of course, they ask or demand), that having them shuffle may unduly slow things down, and that the tactic of running 3 cards onto the selection and then showing their selection is not at or near the top or bottom will quell suspicion in most cases. The added advantage to the spectator not shuffling is that the cards have much less chance of getting mangled (or greasy or wet in, for example, a restaurant/bar setting). This said, I think Leonard's suggestion is equally applicable to the situation where the magician, exclusively, is handling the cards, and is a very prudent measure in any event.

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Re: On the Pass

Postby Jack Shalom » April 28th, 2017, 3:57 pm

John M. Dale wrote:
Brad Jeffers wrote:
John M. Dale wrote:Palming is the word your looking for.
I felt sure it was daemons.


That's ok Brad. My first thought for:

MagicbyAlfred wrote:(3) f _ r _ i _ g, the card in the first instance.


Was "farting" which made no sense at all unless it's a unique misdirection technique.

JMD


Wait, it wasn't farting?

That explains a lot about the candle ovation I received.

*sigh*


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