Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

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Christopher1979
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Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 12th, 2017, 11:18 pm

I have always been interested in Gambling/Card cheating techniques but after re-reading Steve Fortes segment in Genii magazine i realized how the two worlds between the card cheater and the magician are very different but also share so many similarities. Its somewhat straightforward to find published works of sleights and routines to do with Gambling demonstrations from a magicians standpoint but what direction would you go down if you wanted to learn "true" Card cheating sleights from a gamblers prospective? What published works are there? I would like to know what books Steve has in his library!

prodigy
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby prodigy » February 13th, 2017, 1:57 am

You can see a glimpse of Steve Forte's library in the Gambling Protection DVDs. One of the special features of the DVD is a museum tour of his collection.

Another potential source for the titles of Steve Forte's library is the Ask Alexander database here: http://askalexander.org/browse/343/Steve+Forte+Scans . I say "potential" because I can't confirm that they scans are from Steve Forte. While you can't access the Forte collection on Ask Alexander at at membership level, you can still get a look at what books there are.

As for other sources, there are private videos recorded of certain gamblers. If you're lucky, you can track some of them down :)

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Bill Mullins » February 13th, 2017, 2:32 am

Tony Giorgio's hand-mucking DVDs might be interesting.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby webbmaster » February 13th, 2017, 12:27 pm

Unless you want to become a real card cheat, meaning you want to entertain with stories and pseudo demos of skills, you can find self-working tricks, usually based on stacks and false shuffles and false cuts, that with the proper delivery of your story about how you could cheat if you want to, that make it seem like you are doing gambling moves but really you are not. This is the old debate of "doing the 'real work'" or doing a trick that makes them think you are, when really you are not, or are doing different sleights from the ones you are pretending. This is like the "Gamblers versus Magician" routines and things like pseudo-centers, where you are pretending to deal centers when really you are dealing seconds or bottoms.

I would recommend not trying to do the real gambler's moves, they take a lifetime of practice every day, and look into self-working tricks like in Scarne or Mickey McDougall, which with the addition of good modern false shuffles and good false cuts, and a good story of a night out when you witnessed an amazing card man's work.

I don't want to forget to mention that almost never do real cheats work alone and instead are part of a team that makes the 'real work' more possible. I hope I helped you understand the issues involved in this area. Regards, Gregg Webb

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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:38 pm

prodigy wrote:You can see a glimpse of Steve Forte's library in the Gambling Protection DVDs. One of the special features of the DVD is a museum tour of his collection.

Another potential source for the titles of Steve Forte's library is the Ask Alexander database here: http://askalexander.org/browse/343/Steve+Forte+Scans . I say "potential" because I can't confirm that they scans are from Steve Forte. While you can't access the Forte collection on Ask Alexander at at membership level, you can still get a look at what books there are.

As for other sources, there are private videos recorded of certain gamblers. If you're lucky, you can track some of them down :)


Hi Prodigy,

You have given me some great information thank you very much!

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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:38 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Tony Giorgio's hand-mucking DVDs might be interesting.


Thank you very much Bill i will look into it!

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:48 pm

webbmaster wrote:Unless you want to become a real card cheat, meaning you want to entertain with stories and pseudo demos of skills, you can find self-working tricks, usually based on stacks and false shuffles and false cuts, that with the proper delivery of your story about how you could cheat if you want to, that make it seem like you are doing gambling moves but really you are not. This is the old debate of "doing the 'real work'" or doing a trick that makes them think you are, when really you are not, or are doing different sleights from the ones you are pretending. This is like the "Gamblers versus Magician" routines and things like pseudo-centers, where you are pretending to deal centers when really you are dealing seconds or bottoms.

I would recommend not trying to do the real gambler's moves, they take a lifetime of practice every day, and look into self-working tricks like in Scarne or Mickey McDougall, which with the addition of good modern false shuffles and good false cuts, and a good story of a night out when you witnessed an amazing card man's work.

I don't want to forget to mention that almost never do real cheats work alone and instead are part of a team that makes the 'real work' more possible. I hope I helped you understand the issues involved in this area. Regards, Gregg Webb


Hi Webbmaster,

I come from a background of doing just that, I got into pseudo demo's of skill when i was young. I first learnt the second deal when i was 16 and then that really gave me the taste to delve deeper into card cheating doing Bottoms, Centers, Run ups, Stacking and culling ect... I have been perfecting those skills (on and Off) for the last 20 years. My drive now is to understand the mechanics a card cheat uses in more depth. The moves and terminology used by cheats are not as well known by the magician as we may think. :)

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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:48 pm

webbmaster wrote:Unless you want to become a real card cheat, meaning you want to entertain with stories and pseudo demos of skills, you can find self-working tricks, usually based on stacks and false shuffles and false cuts, that with the proper delivery of your story about how you could cheat if you want to, that make it seem like you are doing gambling moves but really you are not. This is the old debate of "doing the 'real work'" or doing a trick that makes them think you are, when really you are not, or are doing different sleights from the ones you are pretending. This is like the "Gamblers versus Magician" routines and things like pseudo-centers, where you are pretending to deal centers when really you are dealing seconds or bottoms.

I would recommend not trying to do the real gambler's moves, they take a lifetime of practice every day, and look into self-working tricks like in Scarne or Mickey McDougall, which with the addition of good modern false shuffles and good false cuts, and a good story of a night out when you witnessed an amazing card man's work.

I don't want to forget to mention that almost never do real cheats work alone and instead are part of a team that makes the 'real work' more possible. I hope I helped you understand the issues involved in this area. Regards, Gregg Webb


Hi Webbmaster,

I come from a background of doing just that, I got into pseudo demo's of skill when i was young. I first learnt the second deal when i was 16 and then that really gave me the taste to delve deeper into card cheating doing Bottoms, Centers, Run ups, Stacking and culling ect... I have been perfecting those skills (on and Off) for the last 20 years. My drive now is to understand the mechanics a card cheat uses in more depth. The moves and terminology used by cheats are not as well known by the magician as we may think. :)

prodigy
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby prodigy » February 13th, 2017, 6:44 pm

While reading is nice, I'd also recommend getting in touch with some people who are fairly knowledgeable about cheaters. There's probably a handful of folks out there with extensive knowledge of the area. Unfortunately they're not all the friendliest people, but once you get on their good side, you'll be in for a treat.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 15th, 2017, 1:22 pm

Any suggestions on learning "how to move/when to move"?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 17th, 2017, 12:43 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Any suggestions on learning "how to move/when to move"?


Good Question, I would imagine there is no "real" answer to that as every situation requires a unique sense of timing and when you should make that move.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 17th, 2017, 1:32 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Any suggestions on learning "how to move/when to move"?


Good Question, I would imagine there is no "real" answer to that as every situation requires a unique sense of timing and when you should make that move.


Something we could do with more about in our craft- less discussion of what we might "imagine" and more "show me" as it works for an audience. What draws attention toward and what deflects attention away from. Dingle's humorous foot stomp comes to mind - but that's not likely suitable for repeated use while seated at the card table.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Bill Mullins
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Bill Mullins » February 17th, 2017, 4:35 pm

Jon -- does your comment assume that misdirective techniques used at a gaming table can carry over to the conjurer? If so, why would any gambler be willing to share those techniques?

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 17th, 2017, 9:32 pm

IMHO our community is a fine place to discuss "moments" and "the eye" in context of tricks. What they do in in that moment is their business. :D

Yes, I'm equating game play with attending a performance (call that effect) and method mechanics with cheating technique. I'm taking as a given that what a small group at the table does not notice in real-time can be predicted based upon a relatively short period of observation.

The story of the Keplinger holdout comes to mind as evidence in support of that argument.

It may be that we shut down discussions with reference to poorly described procedures, poorly designed products which are unreliable and bickering over credits and finger position rather than discussing objectives and how to determine if something is reliably deceptive.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 18th, 2017, 6:12 pm

Okay to address Bill's point directly - it's much safer getting caught doing a cheat during a cups and balls routine than in a three shell game. Or doing a card trick than in a card game. So IMHO this is the place to explore strategies.

I'm getting the feeling listening to the lack of "informed" argument here that folks who have cheated at cards here don't want to discuss the matter. It's cool.

Any thoughts on completely fictitious card cheating expose - where specially prepared (supposedly hidden video) captures bizarre and amusing methods used by cheats at gaming tables (again all fiction)??
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » February 18th, 2017, 6:48 pm

I had a session with Jason England where I showed him my bottom deal and asked him how one could make the sound of the card coming off the bottom sound the same as the card coming off the top. He said that only I could truly tell the difference. So after 10 years of practicing the bottom deal, I still have 10 left.


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