Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 30th, 2017, 10:48 pm

jdwatchboy wrote:Eight brings the deck back in order does in not


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Yes it does or 52 shuffles depending if your doing an in faro or an out.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » March 30th, 2017, 11:17 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
jdwatchboy wrote:Eight brings the deck back in order does in not


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Yes it does or 52 shuffles depending if your doing an in faro or an out.


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An In Faro


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 30th, 2017, 11:55 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
As you also mention if Roger can indeed do table faro's and never miss then he is one hell of a card worker .....

I didn't, and would never say any such thing.
I still can't do a deceptive pass - despite 25+ years of trying.

...So there's that.

Good at one thing doesn't always translate into good at everything (or even anything) else.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » March 31st, 2017, 5:29 am

I think the secret of the pass is simply to do it when nobody is looking! Quite invisible when you do that. I learned it from Professor Hoffman and until recently had no idea who taught it to me as it was in some ancient slim book on card tricks. After reading that it would take months and months of arduous practice it took me ages to get around to learning it. I was scared stiff at all the predicted difficulty and had to gird up my loins to even read the description. I learned how to do it in ten minutes! It must have been a fluke of some kind because I could do it perfectly and am still doing it to this day nearly 60 years later. It must have been a miracle of some kind or Professor Hoffman was a bloody good teacher!

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby MagicbyAlfred » March 31st, 2017, 10:58 am

I was thinking about Roger's comment of not being able to do a deceptive pass despite over 25 years of trying, and yet the fact that he is able to nail a tabled Faro with unerring accuracy. There just seem to be some moves and flourishes that elude me despite my best efforts. Others have come easy for me (e.g Tenkai vanish, throw change, snap change, and retention vanishes with coins and sponges). Still others, I have gotten down only through dogged determination and persistent work (e.g pressure fan, one-handed Faro, clean double lift). Each of the magicians I've met down through the years has moves that come natural to them (Performer's pass being a case in point), or at least which they are eventually able to master. I have one friend who does the most immaculate and deceptive back-palm of a card I have ever seen - and his hand looks flatter than a pancake. I am green with envy just thinking about it. But ultimately, my solution has been to realize that, for whatever reason, there are some moves I would love to be able to do well that were just not meant for me, and to play to my strengths (few though they might be).

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 31st, 2017, 11:36 am

I thought the Faro shuffle was not a secret gambling sleight but instead done openly as a way to card combine packets after a game/round.
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » March 31st, 2017, 3:32 pm

You don't have to make a perfect pass. In other words try to make it look invisible That is a mistake a lot of people make. Just do it when nobody is looking. You can't get more invisible than that. The skill should not be in the mechanics of the move. It should be in the misdirection. Kick the spectator in the shin when you do it. That should do it.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jkeyes1000 » March 31st, 2017, 5:10 pm

Pardon my ignorance concerning effects that require a perfect faro shuffle, but just how might one determine that it were perfect during the course if a performance? I mean, you can't stare at the deck and scrutinise it. Would an imperfect faro ruin the outcome? Or is it possible that some of us are merely guessing that we never muff it?

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Bill Mullins » March 31st, 2017, 5:26 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:Pardon my ignorance concerning effects that require a perfect faro shuffle, but just how might one determine that it were perfect during the course if a performance? I mean, you can't stare at the deck and scrutinise it. Would an imperfect faro ruin the outcome? Or is it possible that some of us are merely guessing that we never muff it?


Once you've done it a few thousand times (or how every many it takes you to get good at it), you know immediately if you hit it or not.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 31st, 2017, 5:33 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:Pardon my ignorance concerning effects that require a perfect faro shuffle, but just how might one determine that it were perfect during the course if a performance? I mean, you can't stare at the deck and scrutinise it. Would an imperfect faro ruin the outcome? Or is it possible that some of us are merely guessing that we never muff it?


Once you've done it a few thousand times (or how every many it takes you to get good at it), you know immediately if you hit it or not.


Very true, i would go as far to say you can feel and hear it. There is something about a perfect faro that just feel's right.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 31st, 2017, 6:39 pm

After the fact you can tell just by looking at the halves prior to pushing them together.

Realistically (and with a bit of experience) you actually know the moment you've missed a card.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 31st, 2017, 6:49 pm

Roger M. wrote:After the fact you can tell just by looking at the halves prior to pushing them together.

Realistically (and with a bit of experience) you actually know the moment you've missed a card.


Hey Roger, how do you know you have missed a card if you never miss?..... haha. :)

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » March 31st, 2017, 6:58 pm

When I do the Notis Cascade which requires a one hand weave I always know if the cascade is going to work properly. I can just sense it by way the cards feel after being weaved together. If I sense it isn't going to work I simply go into the one hand shuffle a la Howard De Courcy and nobody knows the difference. If I feel it is going to work then I go into the cascade proper. I can make it drop a foot or so instead of the piddly few inches everyone else seems capable of. But then some of us are born to lead and some of us are born to follow.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Bill Duncan » March 31st, 2017, 11:10 pm

I sat across the table from Martin Nash and watched him cycle a deck twice with his tabled faro. That's a better success rate than a lot of people have with their strike double lift.

I don't imagine anyone is 100% on any move, but clearly there are folks who get close enough for practical use.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 31st, 2017, 11:13 pm

Bill Duncan wrote:I sat across the table from Martin Nash and watched him cycle a deck twice with his tabled faro. That's a better success rate than a lot of people have with their strike double lift.

I don't imagine anyone is 100% on any move, but clearly there are folks who get close enough for practical use.


"I sat across the table from Martin Nash" wow now that's what I would love to do! What a lucky man!


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Bill Duncan » March 31st, 2017, 11:16 pm

I wasn't there on merit, I know the guy who wrote his books.
: )

I will say that he was as nice, and as cool, as you imagine he was.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 31st, 2017, 11:18 pm

Bill Duncan wrote:I wasn't there on merit, I know the guy who wrote his books.
: )

I will say that he was as nice, and as cool, as you imagine he was.


Ooh I see!


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 31st, 2017, 11:20 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
Bill Duncan wrote:I wasn't there on merit, I know the guy who wrote his books.
: )

I will say that he was as nice, and as cool, as you imagine he was.


Ooh I see!


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You know I gathered that.. he always came across so sincere.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 1st, 2017, 2:52 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
Roger M. wrote:After the fact you can tell just by looking at the halves prior to pushing them together.

Realistically (and with a bit of experience) you actually know the moment you've missed a card.


Hey Roger, how do you know you have missed a card if you never miss?..... haha. :)


I actually didn't read anything that Roger wrote that indicated that he was hitting 100% from day one of trying tabled faros. My assumption (and I believe it's a reasonable one) is that he worked hard on getting to the point where he could execute the shuffle flawlessly, but as he got more and more experience along the way to where he is now with it, he got to a point where he knew the moment that he missed. That doesn't mean that he misses anymore. IMHO, we should take one another at our word, unless and until there is evidence proving otherwise.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 1st, 2017, 3:10 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
Roger M. wrote:After the fact you can tell just by looking at the halves prior to pushing them together.

Realistically (and with a bit of experience) you actually know the moment you've missed a card.


Hey Roger, how do you know you have missed a card if you never miss?..... haha. :)


I actually didn't read anything that Roger wrote that indicated that he was hitting 100% from day one of trying tabled faros. My assumption (and I believe it's a reasonable one) is that he worked hard on getting to the point where he could execute the shuffle flawlessly, but as he got more and more experience along the way to where he is now with it, he got to a point where he knew the moment that he missed. That doesn't mean that he misses anymore. IMHO, we should take one another at our word, unless and until there is evidence proving otherwise.


No, I realize he wasn't saying that the first time he picked up a deck he was hitting table faro's 100% of the time. I get your point.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 1st, 2017, 4:17 pm

My assumption (and I believe it is a reasonable one) is that Christopher1979 was kidding.
I base this assumption on the combination of the word haha and a smiley face being strategically placed at the end of his sentence.



:geek:

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 1st, 2017, 5:02 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:My assumption (and I believe it is a reasonable one) is that Christopher1979 was kidding.
I base this assumption on the combination of the word haha and a smiley face being strategically placed at the end of his sentence.



:geek:

You are right! It was only meant as a bit of light hearted banter. Let's not take things so seriously


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 1st, 2017, 5:05 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:My assumption (and I believe it is a reasonable one) is that Christopher1979 was kidding.
I base this assumption on the combination of the word haha and a smiley face being strategically placed at the end of his sentence.




:geek:



I respectfully disagree.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 1st, 2017, 5:17 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:
Brad Jeffers wrote:My assumption (and I believe it is a reasonable one) is that Christopher1979 was kidding.
I base this assumption on the combination of the word haha and a smiley face being strategically placed at the end of his sentence.




:geek:



I respectfully disagree.



I am not going to say anymore on this subject. I never want to come over disrespectful to anyone on here. As this is a forum i thought it was ok to air your views and also have a bit of a joke. Maybe I was wrong


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 1st, 2017, 9:08 pm

Christopher,

Let me explain something. Nobody that I know of ever said it was not OK to air your views. Just be aware that if you do, others might have another viewpoint, and they get to express their views as well. We can disagree in a gentlemanly fashion; it happens all the time on here - and sometimes not so gentlemanly, so don't take it to heart.

You (and Mr. Jeffers) both saw your original comment as lighthearted banter, but using the words, "ha ha," and putting a smiley face icon do not necessarily make a comment nothing more than a joke. The wrapping on a package does not change what is inside. You say your intent was only to make a joke, and I will take you at your word. Now, the fact is I don't even know Roger personally, and he is clearly more than capable of standing up for himself. But I felt I wanted to come to his defense because, in my opinion, your comment could have been easily interpreted as a challenge to his statement that he hits the table Faro 100% - the tone of the comment struck me as kind of a "Gotcha!" That's all. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong. After all, anything can happen once...

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Joe Mckay » April 1st, 2017, 9:18 pm

performer wrote:When I do the Notis Cascade which requires a one hand weave I always know if the cascade is going to work properly. I can just sense it by way the cards feel after being weaved together. If I sense it isn't going to work I simply go into the one hand shuffle a la Howard De Courcy and nobody knows the difference. If I feel it is going to work then I go into the cascade proper. I can make it drop a foot or so instead of the piddly few inches everyone else seems capable of. But then some of us are born to lead and some of us are born to follow.


Ricky Jay did a great job with that move on The X Files:

https://youtu.be/K8IPKqzehFs?t=46s

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 1st, 2017, 9:32 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:Christopher,

Let me explain something. Nobody that I know of ever said it was not OK to air your views. Just be aware that if you do, others might have another viewpoint, and they get to express their views as well. We can disagree in a gentlemanly fashion; it happens all the time on here - and sometimes not so gentlemanly, so don't take it to heart.

You (and Mr. Jeffers) both saw your original comment as lighthearted banter, but using the words, "ha ha," and putting a smiley face icon do not necessarily make a comment nothing more than a joke. The wrapping on a package does not change what is inside. You say your intent was only to make a joke, and I will take you at your word. Now, the fact is I don't even know Roger personally, and he is clearly more than capable of standing up for himself. But I felt I wanted to come to his defense because, in my opinion, your comment could have been easily interpreted as a challenge to his statement that he hits the table Faro 100% - the tone of the comment struck me as kind of a "Gotcha!" That's all. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong. After all, anything can happen once...



I am not taking anything to heart I have broad shoulders. I can understand how my comment could be misconstrued and I just wanted to reply to make a point that my comment was light hearted and certainly not meant to have a poke at anyone on here.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » April 1st, 2017, 9:46 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:
performer wrote:When I do the Notis Cascade which requires a one hand weave I always know if the cascade is going to work properly. I can just sense it by way the cards feel after being weaved together. If I sense it isn't going to work I simply go into the one hand shuffle a la Howard De Courcy and nobody knows the difference. If I feel it is going to work then I go into the cascade proper. I can make it drop a foot or so instead of the piddly few inches everyone else seems capable of. But then some of us are born to lead and some of us are born to follow.


Ricky Jay did a great job with that move on The X Files:

https://youtu.be/K8IPKqzehFs?t=46s


It was OK but he only allowed it to drop a few measly inches. In the Vernon Card book where I first learned the move it said it could be done for a foot or so. That is what I do. It is FAR more spectacular that way. Anything else looks pathetic in comparison. I prefer not to do it as part of a trick but as an event on it's own.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » April 1st, 2017, 9:48 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:Christopher,

Let me explain something. Nobody that I know of ever said it was not OK to air your views. Just be aware that if you do, others might have another viewpoint, and they get to express their views as well. We can disagree in a gentlemanly fashion; it happens all the time on here - and sometimes not so gentlemanly, so don't take it to heart.

You (and Mr. Jeffers) both saw your original comment as lighthearted banter, but using the words, "ha ha," and putting a smiley face icon do not necessarily make a comment nothing more than a joke. The wrapping on a package does not change what is inside. You say your intent was only to make a joke, and I will take you at your word. Now, the fact is I don't even know Roger personally, and he is clearly more than capable of standing up for himself. But I felt I wanted to come to his defense because, in my opinion, your comment could have been easily interpreted as a challenge to his statement that he hits the table Faro 100% - the tone of the comment struck me as kind of a "Gotcha!" That's all. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong. After all, anything can happen once...



I am not taking anything to heart I have broad shoulders. I can understand how my comment could be misconstrued and I just wanted to reply to make a point that my comment was light hearted and certainly not meant to have a poke at anyone on here.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 1st, 2017, 10:05 pm

performer wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:Christopher,

Let me explain something. Nobody that I know of ever said it was not OK to air your views. Just be aware that if you do, others might have another viewpoint, and they get to express their views as well. We can disagree in a gentlemanly fashion; it happens all the time on here - and sometimes not so gentlemanly, so don't take it to heart.

You (and Mr. Jeffers) both saw your original comment as lighthearted banter, but using the words, "ha ha," and putting a smiley face icon do not necessarily make a comment nothing more than a joke. The wrapping on a package does not change what is inside. You say your intent was only to make a joke, and I will take you at your word. Now, the fact is I don't even know Roger personally, and he is clearly more than capable of standing up for himself. But I felt I wanted to come to his defense because, in my opinion, your comment could have been easily interpreted as a challenge to his statement that he hits the table Faro 100% - the tone of the comment struck me as kind of a "Gotcha!" That's all. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong. After all, anything can happen once...



I am not taking anything to heart I have broad shoulders. I can understand how my comment could be misconstrued and I just wanted to reply to make a point that my comment was light hearted and certainly not meant to have a poke at anyone on here.


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Years ago I was advised by David Ben that it was imperative not to have a sense of humour on the Genii Forum.


..... wise advice I'm starting to think


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby MagicbyAlfred » April 1st, 2017, 10:09 pm

OK, time to change the subject from this rather unpleasant discourse.

People often ask me if I ever sawed a lady in half. To which I respond, "Well, yes, I did once. And now she lives in New York and Chicago."

Whoops, looks like I violated Mr. Ben's stern admonition, and now I will have to face the consequences, whatever they might be...

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jack Shalom » April 2nd, 2017, 1:47 am

Kind of half-hearted?

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Tom Gilbert » April 2nd, 2017, 7:40 am

Roger M. wrote:I've always maintained that nobody should undertake any faro work for any reason whatsoever that requires a specific interlace of the cards if they can't do it perfectly 100% of the time.

Pulling the halves apart to re-try for a desired interlace is as good as saying "oh - excuse me, I have to get these interwoven in a specific manner and I just missed it, give me a second while I try again!".


I was talking to Frank Garcia about using a faro. He gave about the same advise as Roger. He said something to the effect of if you miss and repeat, you turn a casual shuffle into a studied move. His advise was either don't use a routine needing a perfect faro or having a plan B routine to go into from the missed faro.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby erdnasephile » April 2nd, 2017, 6:23 pm

Tom Gilbert wrote:
Roger M. wrote:I've always maintained that nobody should undertake any faro work for any reason whatsoever that requires a specific interlace of the cards if they can't do it perfectly 100% of the time.

Pulling the halves apart to re-try for a desired interlace is as good as saying "oh - excuse me, I have to get these interwoven in a specific manner and I just missed it, give me a second while I try again!".


I was talking to Frank Garcia about using a faro. He gave about the same advise as Roger. He said something to the effect of if you miss and repeat, you turn a casual shuffle into a studied move. His advise was either don't use a routine needing a perfect faro or having a plan B routine to go into from the missed faro.


Was it Vernon who said you should never do a trick with more than one (or at most, two) faros?

(Obvious exception: "Unshuffled")

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » April 2nd, 2017, 8:53 pm

Harry Lorayne had a great trick in "My Favourite Card Tricks" and I think you had to have two (or maybe more faro shuffles). It was some kind of spelling trick. I wanted to do it badly but the repeated faro shuffling was too much for me and I gave up. However, today as a result of this conversation I have figured a way to get out of trouble so that the move can be repeated without it being a studied move. It will only work once though. God alone knows what you will do if can't do the move on the repeat effort.

This is what I had in mind. You start the weave and if you get the early warning signal that it isn't working then do not panic since the audience won't know you have screwed things up. Don't unweave them and try again. That may indeed be a bit fishy. Simple turn it into any one of those myriad in the hand false waterfalll shuffles that leave the deck in the same order. They are usually done from in the air riffle shuffles but they can easily be adapted from screwed up faro shuffles. There are two methods that I can think of off hand but there are many, many more. I am referring to the method in the Henry Hay "Amateur Magicians Handbook" or there is also a good one in the Paul Le Paul card book.

You just simply act as if you were going to do that all along and repeat the shuffle as if that is what you intended from the beginning. Of course now you attempt the weave again. If you screw things up a second time then you had better stick to the 21 card trick.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 2nd, 2017, 9:12 pm

performer wrote:Harry Lorayne had a great trick in "My Favourite Card Tricks" and I think you had to have two (or maybe more faro shuffles). It was some kind of spelling trick. I wanted to do it badly but the repeated faro shuffling was too much for me and I gave up. However, today as a result of this conversation I have figured a way to get out of trouble so that the move can be repeated without it being a studied move. It will only work once though. God alone knows what you will do if can't do the move on the repeat effort.

This is what I had in mind. You start the weave and if you get the early warning signal that it isn't working then do not panic since the audience won't know you have screwed things up. Don't unweave them and try again. That may indeed be a bit fishy. Simple turn it into any one of those myriad in the hand false waterfalll shuffles that leave the deck in the same order. They are usually done from in the air riffle shuffles but they can easily be adapted from screwed up faro shuffles. There are two methods that I can think of off hand but there are many, many more. I am referring to the method in the Henry Hay "Amateur Magicians Handbook" or there is also a good one in the Paul Le Paul card book.

You just simply act as if you were going to do that all along and repeat the shuffle as if that is what you intended from the beginning. Of course now you attempt the weave again. If you screw things up a second time then you had better stick to the 21 card trick.



I agree and I have said similar in a early comment. Separating the packets in my eyes makes it very fishy. I would go into a move that guy Hollingworth does very well. It's essentially a false waterfall shuffle followed by a strip out and a cut.


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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 2nd, 2017, 10:12 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Was it Vernon who said you should never do a trick with more than one (or at most, two) faros?
(Obvious exception: "Unshuffled")

Another exception would be Mike Skinner's "The Monkey's Paw".

Vernon probably said no more than two, as his excellent trick "Vernon's Aces", requires two faro shuffles.

Had Vernon performed "Unshuffled" he would probably have said you should never do a trick with more than three faros.

Had he performed "The Monkey's Paw" then the number would have been eight.

I will go on record as agreeing with that ...
You should never do a trick with more than eight faro shuffles. :)

Jack Shalom
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jack Shalom » April 2nd, 2017, 11:42 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:You should never do a trick with more than eight faro shuffles. :)


When performing for magicians, I just leave the deck alone and let them think I've done eight faros...

Dave Le Fevre
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Dave Le Fevre » April 3rd, 2017, 4:27 am

performer wrote:I wanted to do it badly

You should have asked me, Mark.

I can usually find a way of performing any trick badly.

Dave

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » April 3rd, 2017, 5:47 am

Dave Le Fevre wrote:
performer wrote:I wanted to do it badly

You should have asked me, Mark.

I can usually find a way of performing any trick badly.

Dave


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