Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

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Christopher1979
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Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 12th, 2017, 11:18 pm

I have always been interested in Gambling/Card cheating techniques but after re-reading Steve Fortes segment in Genii magazine i realized how the two worlds between the card cheater and the magician are very different but also share so many similarities. Its somewhat straightforward to find published works of sleights and routines to do with Gambling demonstrations from a magicians standpoint but what direction would you go down if you wanted to learn "true" Card cheating sleights from a gamblers prospective? What published works are there? I would like to know what books Steve has in his library!

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby prodigy » February 13th, 2017, 1:57 am

You can see a glimpse of Steve Forte's library in the Gambling Protection DVDs. One of the special features of the DVD is a museum tour of his collection.

Another potential source for the titles of Steve Forte's library is the Ask Alexander database here: http://askalexander.org/browse/343/Steve+Forte+Scans . I say "potential" because I can't confirm that they scans are from Steve Forte. While you can't access the Forte collection on Ask Alexander at at membership level, you can still get a look at what books there are.

As for other sources, there are private videos recorded of certain gamblers. If you're lucky, you can track some of them down :)

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Bill Mullins » February 13th, 2017, 2:32 am

Tony Giorgio's hand-mucking DVDs might be interesting.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby webbmaster » February 13th, 2017, 12:27 pm

Unless you want to become a real card cheat, meaning you want to entertain with stories and pseudo demos of skills, you can find self-working tricks, usually based on stacks and false shuffles and false cuts, that with the proper delivery of your story about how you could cheat if you want to, that make it seem like you are doing gambling moves but really you are not. This is the old debate of "doing the 'real work'" or doing a trick that makes them think you are, when really you are not, or are doing different sleights from the ones you are pretending. This is like the "Gamblers versus Magician" routines and things like pseudo-centers, where you are pretending to deal centers when really you are dealing seconds or bottoms.

I would recommend not trying to do the real gambler's moves, they take a lifetime of practice every day, and look into self-working tricks like in Scarne or Mickey McDougall, which with the addition of good modern false shuffles and good false cuts, and a good story of a night out when you witnessed an amazing card man's work.

I don't want to forget to mention that almost never do real cheats work alone and instead are part of a team that makes the 'real work' more possible. I hope I helped you understand the issues involved in this area. Regards, Gregg Webb

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:38 pm

prodigy wrote:You can see a glimpse of Steve Forte's library in the Gambling Protection DVDs. One of the special features of the DVD is a museum tour of his collection.

Another potential source for the titles of Steve Forte's library is the Ask Alexander database here: http://askalexander.org/browse/343/Steve+Forte+Scans . I say "potential" because I can't confirm that they scans are from Steve Forte. While you can't access the Forte collection on Ask Alexander at at membership level, you can still get a look at what books there are.

As for other sources, there are private videos recorded of certain gamblers. If you're lucky, you can track some of them down :)


Hi Prodigy,

You have given me some great information thank you very much!

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:38 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Tony Giorgio's hand-mucking DVDs might be interesting.


Thank you very much Bill i will look into it!

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:48 pm

webbmaster wrote:Unless you want to become a real card cheat, meaning you want to entertain with stories and pseudo demos of skills, you can find self-working tricks, usually based on stacks and false shuffles and false cuts, that with the proper delivery of your story about how you could cheat if you want to, that make it seem like you are doing gambling moves but really you are not. This is the old debate of "doing the 'real work'" or doing a trick that makes them think you are, when really you are not, or are doing different sleights from the ones you are pretending. This is like the "Gamblers versus Magician" routines and things like pseudo-centers, where you are pretending to deal centers when really you are dealing seconds or bottoms.

I would recommend not trying to do the real gambler's moves, they take a lifetime of practice every day, and look into self-working tricks like in Scarne or Mickey McDougall, which with the addition of good modern false shuffles and good false cuts, and a good story of a night out when you witnessed an amazing card man's work.

I don't want to forget to mention that almost never do real cheats work alone and instead are part of a team that makes the 'real work' more possible. I hope I helped you understand the issues involved in this area. Regards, Gregg Webb


Hi Webbmaster,

I come from a background of doing just that, I got into pseudo demo's of skill when i was young. I first learnt the second deal when i was 16 and then that really gave me the taste to delve deeper into card cheating doing Bottoms, Centers, Run ups, Stacking and culling ect... I have been perfecting those skills (on and Off) for the last 20 years. My drive now is to understand the mechanics a card cheat uses in more depth. The moves and terminology used by cheats are not as well known by the magician as we may think. :)

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 13th, 2017, 12:48 pm

webbmaster wrote:Unless you want to become a real card cheat, meaning you want to entertain with stories and pseudo demos of skills, you can find self-working tricks, usually based on stacks and false shuffles and false cuts, that with the proper delivery of your story about how you could cheat if you want to, that make it seem like you are doing gambling moves but really you are not. This is the old debate of "doing the 'real work'" or doing a trick that makes them think you are, when really you are not, or are doing different sleights from the ones you are pretending. This is like the "Gamblers versus Magician" routines and things like pseudo-centers, where you are pretending to deal centers when really you are dealing seconds or bottoms.

I would recommend not trying to do the real gambler's moves, they take a lifetime of practice every day, and look into self-working tricks like in Scarne or Mickey McDougall, which with the addition of good modern false shuffles and good false cuts, and a good story of a night out when you witnessed an amazing card man's work.

I don't want to forget to mention that almost never do real cheats work alone and instead are part of a team that makes the 'real work' more possible. I hope I helped you understand the issues involved in this area. Regards, Gregg Webb


Hi Webbmaster,

I come from a background of doing just that, I got into pseudo demo's of skill when i was young. I first learnt the second deal when i was 16 and then that really gave me the taste to delve deeper into card cheating doing Bottoms, Centers, Run ups, Stacking and culling ect... I have been perfecting those skills (on and Off) for the last 20 years. My drive now is to understand the mechanics a card cheat uses in more depth. The moves and terminology used by cheats are not as well known by the magician as we may think. :)

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby prodigy » February 13th, 2017, 6:44 pm

While reading is nice, I'd also recommend getting in touch with some people who are fairly knowledgeable about cheaters. There's probably a handful of folks out there with extensive knowledge of the area. Unfortunately they're not all the friendliest people, but once you get on their good side, you'll be in for a treat.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 15th, 2017, 1:22 pm

Any suggestions on learning "how to move/when to move"?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » February 17th, 2017, 12:43 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Any suggestions on learning "how to move/when to move"?


Good Question, I would imagine there is no "real" answer to that as every situation requires a unique sense of timing and when you should make that move.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 17th, 2017, 1:32 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Any suggestions on learning "how to move/when to move"?


Good Question, I would imagine there is no "real" answer to that as every situation requires a unique sense of timing and when you should make that move.


Something we could do with more about in our craft- less discussion of what we might "imagine" and more "show me" as it works for an audience. What draws attention toward and what deflects attention away from. Dingle's humorous foot stomp comes to mind - but that's not likely suitable for repeated use while seated at the card table.
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Bill Mullins » February 17th, 2017, 4:35 pm

Jon -- does your comment assume that misdirective techniques used at a gaming table can carry over to the conjurer? If so, why would any gambler be willing to share those techniques?

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 17th, 2017, 9:32 pm

IMHO our community is a fine place to discuss "moments" and "the eye" in context of tricks. What they do in in that moment is their business. :D

Yes, I'm equating game play with attending a performance (call that effect) and method mechanics with cheating technique. I'm taking as a given that what a small group at the table does not notice in real-time can be predicted based upon a relatively short period of observation.

The story of the Keplinger holdout comes to mind as evidence in support of that argument.

It may be that we shut down discussions with reference to poorly described procedures, poorly designed products which are unreliable and bickering over credits and finger position rather than discussing objectives and how to determine if something is reliably deceptive.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 18th, 2017, 6:12 pm

Okay to address Bill's point directly - it's much safer getting caught doing a cheat during a cups and balls routine than in a three shell game. Or doing a card trick than in a card game. So IMHO this is the place to explore strategies.

I'm getting the feeling listening to the lack of "informed" argument here that folks who have cheated at cards here don't want to discuss the matter. It's cool.

Any thoughts on completely fictitious card cheating expose - where specially prepared (supposedly hidden video) captures bizarre and amusing methods used by cheats at gaming tables (again all fiction)??
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » February 18th, 2017, 6:48 pm

I had a session with Jason England where I showed him my bottom deal and asked him how one could make the sound of the card coming off the bottom sound the same as the card coming off the top. He said that only I could truly tell the difference. So after 10 years of practicing the bottom deal, I still have 10 left.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby webbmaster » March 29th, 2017, 1:46 pm

But I think the question still is 'how to use real moves' in entertainment. Of course we can work on whatever we want in the privacy of our own homes. But in a show, mainly you don't want to get caught (or in a real game) but I still remember Steve Forte who I think said he was dealing centers when really he was dealing bottoms...my point being that a pseudo demo can be any time you claim to be doing one move but are really doing another move as a way of arriving at an ending that is more than just expose.

Derek Dingle had a great second deal. Darwin Ortiz has great hands. Wes James has a great bottom and a great push off second. Doug Edwards knows deals and mucking. All have various passes and again Darwin amazed me with his riffle stacks. So, I've seen them and also some real cheats (and let's not forget Frank Garcia. The man with the Million Dollar Hands). One area I don't and haven't tried (much) is Faro shuffles because I've seen almost all of the above people MISS at one time or another and pull out and start again, but my only point particularly for beginners here is that you don't need all those most difficult moves to entertain with cards. The presentation is hard too.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 29th, 2017, 7:27 pm

webbmaster wrote: One area I don't and haven't tried (much) is Faro shuffles because I've seen almost all of the above people MISS at one time or another and pull out and start again


I wish others would follow your lead.

I've always maintained that nobody should undertake any faro work for any reason whatsoever that requires a specific interlace of the cards if they can't do it perfectly 100% of the time.

Pulling the halves apart to re-try for a desired interlace is as good as saying "oh - excuse me, I have to get these interwoven in a specific manner and I just missed it, give me a second while I try again!".

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 29th, 2017, 7:55 pm

Roger M. wrote:
webbmaster wrote: One area I don't and haven't tried (much) is Faro shuffles because I've seen almost all of the above people MISS at one time or another and pull out and start again


I wish others would follow your lead.

I've always maintained that nobody should undertake any faro work for any reason whatsoever that requires a specific interlace of the cards if they can't do it perfectly 100% of the time.

Pulling the halves apart to re-try for a desired interlace is as good as saying "oh - excuse me, I have to get these interwoven in a specific manner and I just missed it, give me a second while I try again!".



Very good point, I think we all strive for a perfect faro every time ..... impossible?.... maybe so. I think the best thing to do is if you do miss you should (if doing a table faro) do a push through false shuffle and try again if you are doing a in the hand faro I normally will finish the shuffle leaving the packets outjogged then follow with a strip out and a cut then as above try again.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 29th, 2017, 8:03 pm

Christopher1979 wrote: I think we all strive for a perfect faro every time ..... impossible?.... maybe so.

Absolutely not impossible at all, thus folks who can't hit 100% should keep practicing - or choose another trick that doesn't depend on some derivative of a perfect faro.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 29th, 2017, 8:07 pm

Roger M. wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote: I think we all strive for a perfect faro every time ..... impossible?.... maybe so.

Absolutely not impossible at all, thus folks who can't hit 100% should keep practicing - or choose another trick that doesn't depend on some derivative of a perfect faro.



Well maybe I do need to practice more then but I have heard from many top card workers one personally and they echo that a perfect faro every single time is somewhat impossible


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 29th, 2017, 8:21 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
Roger M. wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote: I think we all strive for a perfect faro every time ..... impossible?.... maybe so.

Absolutely not impossible at all, thus folks who can't hit 100% should keep practicing - or choose another trick that doesn't depend on some derivative of a perfect faro.



Well maybe I do need to practice more then but I have heard from many top card workers one personally and they echo that a perfect faro every single time is somewhat impossible


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You have been misinformed.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 29th, 2017, 8:30 pm

Roger M. wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
Roger M. wrote:Absolutely not impossible at all, thus folks who can't hit 100% should keep practicing - or choose another trick that doesn't depend on some derivative of a perfect faro.



Well maybe I do need to practice more then but I have heard from many top card workers one personally and they echo that a perfect faro every single time is somewhat impossible


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You have been misinformed.


Jason England has been heard saying that he doesn't hit a table faro every time. I would say he is a very fine card handler


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 29th, 2017, 9:45 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:Jason England has been heard saying that he doesn't hit a table faro every time. I would say he is a very fine card handler

Jason is a great guy, and a fine card handler indeed.

But you need to distinguish between Jason (perhaps) saying that "he" can't hit a faro every time, and you extrapolating that comment to then make a statement of your own that nobody can hit a faro 100% of the time.

There is no correlation whatsoever between the two statements.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » March 29th, 2017, 9:49 pm

If you miss the faro then you push the decks together and do another trick. You should never never try again, unless you are really funny and can distract onlookers with a few witty comments. Better to just move along than fix the trick.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 29th, 2017, 10:11 pm

jdwatchboy wrote:If you miss the faro then you push the decks together and do another trick. You should never never try again, unless you are really funny and can distract onlookers with a few witty comments. Better to just move along than fix the trick.


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I personally think by doing that you would draw more attention to yourself. Missing a perfect faro is not a big thing if it is part of a shuffling sequence.


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » March 29th, 2017, 10:26 pm

I must have done more faro shuffles than anyone in history. With the poorest quality cards ever known to mankind. I expect you can all figure out why.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 29th, 2017, 10:39 pm

performer wrote:I must have done more faro shuffles than anyone in history. With the poorest quality cards ever known to mankind. I expect you can all figure out why.


Very good point


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » March 29th, 2017, 10:42 pm

I can actually do perfect faros nearly every time with regular cards too. However, it has to be with good quality cards and a new deck. I don't bother with it much though since I don't do any tricks that require it.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jack Shalom » March 30th, 2017, 6:56 am

I think readers of this thread will greatly enjoy Greg Chapman's upcoming book Details of Deception which has some amazing material on peeks, shiners, second deals, and estimation, much in the vein of his previous book, The Devil's Staircase.

For more information on it, take a look at the end of the following blog post:
https://jackshalom.net/2017/03/26/book- ... edition-2/

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby prodigy » March 30th, 2017, 9:05 am

Roger M. wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:Jason England has been heard saying that he doesn't hit a table faro every time. I would say he is a very fine card handler

Jason is a great guy, and a fine card handler indeed.

But you need to distinguish between Jason (perhaps) saying that "he" can't hit a faro every time, and you extrapolating that comment to then make a statement of your own that nobody can hit a faro 100% of the time.

There is no correlation whatsoever between the two statements.


Jason England, in his theory11 tabled faro download, said that nobody hits the faro 100% of the time; not Steve Forte, not Martin Nash, nobody.

In the hands faro is a different story.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 30th, 2017, 10:09 am

I can hit a table faro, or an in the hands faro 100% of the time.
I've been able to do so for 25+ years.
I would posit that there are many hundreds, if not thousands of other card guys who can do exactly the same.

Definitive statements, made broadly, or made in passing in a demonstration video probably shouldn't be taken as pure gospel.

You're welcome to believe that nobody can hit a faro 100% of the time, I have no vested interested in convincing anybody otherwise.
I was merely making a factual statement based on my own experience.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » March 30th, 2017, 10:37 am

Not with the cheap Chinese cards I use for svengali decks you couldn't!

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Denis Behr » March 30th, 2017, 12:22 pm

I cannot do anything 100% of the time, not even eating a sandwich. But I'll keep performing, and eating sandwiches, anyway.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 30th, 2017, 12:38 pm

Denis Behr wrote:I cannot do anything 100% of the time, not even eating a sandwich. But I'll keep performing, and eating sandwiches, anyway.


Haha that's funny


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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » March 30th, 2017, 1:00 pm

performer wrote:Not with the cheap Chinese cards I use for svengali decks you couldn't!

I shall concede that point to you Mark :)

I try to use my own Bee deck, or choose another trick to show folks.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Ian Kendall » March 30th, 2017, 2:09 pm

I still remember Steve Forte who I think said he was dealing centers when really he was dealing bottoms.


Chris Power's Gambling Dem from the Opus Too Director's Cut VHS has a section where you talk about centres and deal bottoms.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby prodigy » March 30th, 2017, 6:59 pm

Roger M. wrote:I can hit a table faro, or an in the hands faro 100% of the time.
I've been able to do so for 25+ years.
I would posit that there are many hundreds, if not thousands of other card guys who can do exactly the same.

Definitive statements, made broadly, or made in passing in a demonstration video probably shouldn't be taken as pure gospel.

You're welcome to believe that nobody can hit a faro 100% of the time, I have no vested interested in convincing anybody otherwise.
I was merely making a factual statement based on my own experience.


The In-the-hands faro is fairly easy to get down consistently. So I do believe that there are probably thousands people who can do that kind of faro and rarely miss. I have yet to meet a person who can consistently hit a tabled faro 100% of time. At best I've seen someone hit it around 80% of the time in one sitting, where they did around 10 or so tabled faros in a row and messed up 2 or 3 times (either didn't cut exactly half, or missed one weave). The reason I bring up the quote about Forte, is if he can't do it 100% of the time, then it does speak to the difficulty of the tabled faro. Maybe if Jason England reads this post, he can comment on this further.

That being said, if you can do a tabled faro 100% of the time, that is great! I hope to meet you in person one day so you can show me.

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » March 30th, 2017, 7:19 pm

prodigy wrote:
Roger M. wrote:I can hit a table faro, or an in the hands faro 100% of the time.
I've been able to do so for 25+ years.
I would posit that there are many hundreds, if not thousands of other card guys who can do exactly the same.

Definitive statements, made broadly, or made in passing in a demonstration video probably shouldn't be taken as pure gospel.

You're welcome to believe that nobody can hit a faro 100% of the time, I have no vested interested in convincing anybody otherwise.
I was merely making a factual statement based on my own experience.


The In-the-hands faro is fairly easy to get down consistently. So I do believe that there are probably thousands people who can do that kind of faro and rarely miss. I have yet to meet a person who can consistently hit a tabled faro 100% of time. At best I've seen someone hit it around 80% of the time in one sitting, where they did around 10 or so tabled faros in a row and messed up 2 or 3 times (either didn't cut exactly half, or missed one weave). The reason I bring up the quote about Forte, is if he can't do it 100% of the time, then it does speak to the difficulty of the tabled faro. Maybe if Jason England reads this post, he can comment on this further.

That being said, if you can do a tabled faro 100% of the time, that is great! I hope to meet you in person one day so you can show me.



You are right in what you say, i never miss a in the hand faro. With a good deck like a Turners bicycle i can hit a table faro 80% to 90% of the time. Sometimes i can have a run of 14 or 15 perfect table faro's in a row but then for some reason miss twice!. Even with the greatest muscle memory i very much doubt you could do 100 table faro shuffles and hit each one.

As you also mention if Roger can indeed do table faro's and never miss then he is one hell of a card worker and i too would love to be in his company and see it for myself.

Realistically you would never need to do more than a few perfect faro's in a routine but i think egotistically we all like to give ourselves a little massage :D

jdwatchboy
Posts: 9
Joined: February 18th, 2017, 7:47 am

Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » March 30th, 2017, 10:46 pm

Eight brings the deck back in order does in not


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