Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

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Jason England
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jason England » April 6th, 2017, 4:30 am

Roger M. wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
As you also mention if Roger can indeed do table faro's and never miss then he is one hell of a card worker .....

I didn't, and would never say any such thing.


Actually, you said exactly that.

"I can hit a table faro, or an in the hands faro 100% of the time." -RogerM

Or is this the part where you say, "Aha! I said a tabled faro OR an in-the-hands faro!" as if you were clever or something?

I stand by my assertion that no one hits perfect weaves with tabled faros 100% of the time. And I've got $1000.00 to your $1000.00 that says you can't do 50 in a row using a brand new, random deck of Bicycles, Tally-Hos or Bees with anything that resembles good tabled faro technique - dropping cards singly doesn't count.

Jason

jdwatchboy
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » April 6th, 2017, 7:08 am

Jason England wrote:
Roger M. wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
As you also mention if Roger can indeed do table faro's and never miss then he is one hell of a card worker .....

I didn't, and would never say any such thing.


Actually, you said exactly that.

"I can hit a table faro, or an in the hands faro 100% of the time." -RogerM

Or is this the part where you say, "Aha! I said a tabled faro OR an in-the-hands faro!" as if you were clever or something?

I stand by my assertion that no one hits perfect weaves with tabled faros 100% of the time. And I've got $1000.00 to your $1000.00 that says you can't do 50 in a row using a brand new, random deck of Bicycles, Tally-Hos or Bees with anything that resembles good tabled faro technique - dropping cards singly doesn't count.

Jason

I'm with you Jason. 8 perhaps 10 in a row and I start getting complacent which causes error.


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Roger M.
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Roger M. » April 6th, 2017, 10:07 am

Jason England wrote:
Roger M. wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
As you also mention if Roger can indeed do table faro's and never miss then he is one hell of a card worker .....

I didn't, and would never say any such thing.


Actually, you said exactly that.

"I can hit a table faro, or an in the hands faro 100% of the time." -RogerM

Or is this the part where you say, "Aha! I said a tabled faro OR an in-the-hands faro!" as if you were clever or something?

I stand by my assertion that no one hits perfect weaves with tabled faros 100% of the time. And I've got $1000.00 to your $1000.00 that says you can't do 50 in a row using a brand new, random deck of Bicycles, Tally-Hos or Bees with anything that resembles good tabled faro technique - dropping cards singly doesn't count.

Jason


I'm a bit shocked at your vitriol Jason, it seems completely out of character for you.

Regardless, my comment that I would "would never say such a thing" was a reference to being called "one hell of a card worker", nothing else.

You have every right to stand by your assertion, I've no interest whatsoever in changing your mind.

Jason England
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jason England » April 6th, 2017, 4:35 pm

RogerM,

There's no vitriol and I apologize if my choice of words made it seem that way. I wasn't mad - only confused at you appearing to say that you never missed tabled faros, then claiming you didn't say that.

You've now clarified that you were only referring to the "hell of a card man" part. Fine. But here's the thing - I've seen Richard Turner miss tabled faros. I've seen Forte miss. I've seen Denis Behr miss. I've seen Martin Nash miss. I've seen Rod the Hop (who used his under fire to cheat in serious poker games) miss. I've seen Ricky Jay miss.

But RogerM never misses tabled faros.

If that's true, then you should embrace the title of "hell of a card man," because you're clearly the best that's ever lived at that move. (Well, you and the thousands of other card handlers that you claim can also do this.)

I'm curious - since you're making the outlandish claim (that there are thousands of magicians who can do perfect tabled faros every time without ever missing), why are you so dead-set against providing any evidence for such a claim?

Surely you could name one other magician out of thousands who hits those tabled faros every time that would like to win a $1000.00?

Incidentally, my offer is very real. And I'm going to want lessons after I pay up the grand.

Stand by my assertion? I do indeed.

Jason

jdwatchboy
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » April 6th, 2017, 4:38 pm

Jason England wrote:RogerM,

There's no vitriol and I apologize if my choice of words made it seem that way. I wasn't mad - only confused at you appearing to say that you never missed tabled faros, then claiming you didn't say that.

You've now clarified that you were only referring to the "hell of a card man" part. Fine. But here's the thing - I've seen Richard Turner miss tabled faros. I've seen Forte miss. I've seen Denis Behr miss. I've seen Martin Nash miss. I've seen Rod the Hop (who used his under fire to cheat in serious poker games) miss. I've seen Ricky Jay miss.

But RogerM never misses tabled faros.

If that's true, then you should embrace the title of "hell of a card man," because you're clearly the best that's ever lived at that move. (Well, you and the thousands of other card handlers that you claim can also do this.)

I'm curious - since you're making the outlandish claim (that there are thousands of magicians who can do perfect tabled faros every time without ever missing), why are you so dead-set against providing any evidence for such a claim?

Surely you could name one other magician out of thousands who hits those tabled faros every time that would like to win a $1000.00?

Incidentally, my offer is very real. And I'm going to want lessons after I pay up the grand.

Stand by my assertion? I do indeed.

Jason

I will practice my Faro and see you in 10 years for the cash:). PS: we met in Ottawa.


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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 6th, 2017, 4:43 pm

Jason England wrote:RogerM,

There's no vitriol and I apologize if my choice of words made it seem that way. I wasn't mad - only confused at you appearing to say that you never missed tabled faros, then claiming you didn't say that.

You've now clarified that you were only referring to the "hell of a card man" part. Fine. But here's the thing - I've seen Richard Turner miss tabled faros. I've seen Forte miss. I've seen Denis Behr miss. I've seen Martin Nash miss. I've seen Rod the Hop (who used his under fire to cheat in serious poker games) miss. I've seen Ricky Jay miss.

But RogerM never misses tabled faros.

If that's true, then you should embrace the title of "hell of a card man," because you're clearly the best that's ever lived at that move. (Well, you and the thousands of other card handlers that you claim can also do this.)

I'm curious - since you're making the outlandish claim (that there are thousands of magicians who can do perfect tabled faros every time without ever missing), why are you so dead-set against providing any evidence for such a claim?

Surely you could name one other magician out of thousands who hits those tabled faros every time that would like to win a $1000.00?

Incidentally, my offer is very real. And I'm going to want lessons after I pay up the grand.

Stand by my assertion? I do indeed.

Jason


Fantastic to hear your view point Jason!. As you have mentioned regarding 50 tabled faro's in a row, that would be a true reflection of 100%. Or at least a fair pop at saying you can hit tabled faro's 100% of the time. The trouble with the statement is 100% of what?, one faro, once a year, or a 100 faro's everyday. Both are theoretically correct but one is fair more impressive and in my eyes totally impossible.

Jason England
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jason England » April 6th, 2017, 4:45 pm

JD,

Martin Nash practiced a lot longer than 10 years. He still missed on occasion when the deck wasn't cooperating. It happens.

To most of us.

Jason

jdwatchboy
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » April 6th, 2017, 4:47 pm

Jason England wrote:JD,

Martin Nash practiced a lot longer than 10 years. He still missed on occasion when the deck wasn't cooperating. It happens.

To most of us.

Jason

I know. And if you did not want to miss one, the stress goes up and guess what, you miss more.


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performer
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby performer » April 6th, 2017, 4:52 pm

I don't even know what a table faro is so I expect I will not be able to it to perfection 50 times.

I might however, be able to do it 50 times if it was an in the hands weave and it was a new deck of good quality. I shall have to try it out. Not that it matters either way. It is a bloody stupid argument on the par of people falling out over the best way to do a false riffle shuffle. Who the hell cares anyway? I would far prefer a performer who screws it up 5 times out of 10 if he could keep me entertained while he was doing it.

Jason England
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jason England » April 6th, 2017, 4:56 pm

Christopher,

Actually, hitting 50 in a row with a single deck only really tells you that your technique is (probably) excellent and that that particular deck is cooperating. A much more interesting test would be to take 50 different decks (they can be all the same brand and size), work them in as much or as little as you want, but you don't get to throw any out unless they're clearly defective. Then do 50 perfect weaves - one with each deck. Good luck.

Martin Nash had just about the best tabled faro I'd ever seen. And he could hit perfect weaves with beat-up old decks that you wouldn't believe! But I still saw him miss a few times with his own deck that had been cooperating just a few minutes before?

What does that tell you? Simply that a tabled faro is a "tightrope walk" that can be derailed by a single mis-step. Miss the cut by a single card? You've missed the weave. Have a (mostly) perfect weave but leave 2 cards together on top and 2 on bottom? Miss. Deck not cut at the factory in such a way that is conducive to hitting smooth faros? You'll miss all day. One card slightly bent and you didn't know it? Miss.

Most of us understand all of this and understand that a 100% tabled faro is ridiculous. Incidentally, I'd also say the same thing about an Elmsley Count and that's a far easier move! The fact is, every magician misses from time to time, on just about every move.

Well, almost every magician.

Jason

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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 6th, 2017, 5:12 pm

Jason England wrote:Christopher,

Actually, hitting 50 in a row with a single deck only really tells you that your technique is (probably) excellent and that that particular deck is cooperating. A much more interesting test would be to take 50 different decks (they can be all the same brand and size), work them in as much or as little as you want, but you don't get to throw any out unless they're clearly defective. Then do 50 perfect weaves - one with each deck. Good luck.

Martin Nash had just about the best tabled faro I'd ever seen. And he could hit perfect weaves with beat-up old decks that you wouldn't believe! But I still saw him miss a few times with his own deck that had been cooperating just a few minutes before?

What does that tell you? Simply that a tabled faro is a "tightrope walk" that can be derailed by a single mis-step. Miss the cut by a single card? You've missed the weave. Have a (mostly) perfect weave but leave 2 cards together on top and 2 on bottom? Miss. Deck not cut at the factory in such a way that is conducive to hitting smooth faros? You'll miss all day. One card slightly bent and you didn't know it? Miss.

Most of us understand all of this and understand that a 100% tabled faro is ridiculous. Incidentally, I'd also say the same thing about an Elmsley Count and that's a far easier move! The fact is, every magician misses from time to time, on just about every move.

Well, almost every magician.

Jason


I totally get you Jason and i have experienced everything you have mentioned above. I have had days where my table faro is excellent and i feel like i have cracked it!. The next day for whatever reason i really struggle. What you say about it being like a "tightrope walk" is so true. There are so many elements to a perfect faro that perfection in my eyes is impossible.

I really respect you and your work so once again its truly wonderful to hear your views!

Chris

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 6th, 2017, 5:25 pm

Jason England wrote: Incidentally, I'd also say the same thing about an Elmsley Count and that's a far easier move!

So you say your offering $1000 to anyone who can do 50 perfect Elmsleys in a row?

Let me know when you get to the glide. ;)

Jason England
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Jason England » April 6th, 2017, 5:34 pm

Christopher,

I can't put words in his mouth, but RogerM may have been speaking of having obtained a level of "practical mastery" over the tabled faro. That means that it's a move that you feel comfortable using, just about anywhere, as long as you are in control of certain necessary elements. For instance, you might have practical mastery over an in-the-hands faro as long as you can choose a decent deck and make sure that it's a good one for faros. In this case, I'd say practical mastery could easily approach 95% accuracy or greater. In any case, that's certainly good enough to use under fire for paying audiences.

I consider myself to have achieved practical mastery over the second deal and bottom deal. That means I'm not afraid to use these moves for paying audiences (even very large or important audiences, like a national television spot). I'll pretty much use them anytime, anywhere as long as the deck of cards is one of my choosing. And I'm not worried about missing - my accuracy with these moves is well over 90%. That's practical mastery. But I'd never tell you that I can hit a bottom deal or a second deal 100% of the time. Nor have I ever seen anyone who can. Everyone misses from time to time, even in important situations and the misses increase in frequency as the difficulty of the move goes up.

Back to faros....

In the case of a tabled faro, you might demand a proper surface, such as a good close-up pad or similar surface and a deck that cooperates when shuffled from the bottom up. As we all know, a deck that's been cut the wrong way can be very difficult to table faro, regardless of how good your technique is. I think that if the bar you've set for yourself is "practical mastery" then these are reasonable demands to make. And I think you could achieve excellent results, perhaps even way above 90%, if you were able to control these elements. I think Martin Nash was above 95% accuracy when he had his cards on a good surface. That's practical mastery.

But it ain't "100% of the time."

If RogerM was talking about practical mastery then he and I don't disagree all that much. If he's going to insist on "100%" as literal truth, then he's going to look awfully silly, since I can line up 40 of the best card handlers in the world that will disagree with him yet he's not willing to provide any proof of his claim.

Jason

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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 6th, 2017, 5:58 pm

Jason,

I totally understand where you are coming from Jason and of course if like you say RogerM is referring to "Practical mastery" i can almost understand where he is coming from. I just took it as point blank 100% of the time. With a good deck like a Turners Bicycle or a bee's i feel confident about my table faro but realistically i will always have in my mind "what if i miss" and if i do, i wont, like others have said just pull the packet apart and do another trick. I will do a strip out and a false cut and then try again. I find if i feel i have that choice it takes the pressure off my table faro.

I have not had the luxury of talking to top card workers apart from Bill Malone on the phone once and he too echoed what you have said about the top guy's also missing.

I think the point is if you can miss, Steve Forte can miss, Richard Turner can miss, Martin Nash can miss.... well we should all feel slightly better about ourselves :)

Kindest regards,

Chris

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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » April 6th, 2017, 6:37 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:Jason,

I totally understand where you are coming from Jason and of course if like you say RogerM is referring to "Practical mastery" i can almost understand where he is coming from. I just took it as point blank 100% of the time. With a good deck like a Turners Bicycle or a bee's i feel confident about my table faro but realistically i will always have in my mind "what if i miss" and if i do, i wont, like others have said just pull the packet apart and do another trick. I will do a strip out and a false cut and then try again. I find if i feel i have that choice it takes the pressure off my table faro.

I have not had the luxury of talking to top card workers apart from Bill Malone on the phone once and he too echoed what you have said about the top guy's also missing.

I think the point is if you can miss, Steve Forte can miss, Richard Turner can miss, Martin Nash can miss.... well we should all feel slightly better about ourselves :)

Kindest regards,

Chris

If it were a bet, you would miss:)


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Christopher1979
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Christopher1979 » April 6th, 2017, 6:43 pm

jdwatchboy wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:Jason,

I totally understand where you are coming from Jason and of course if like you say RogerM is referring to "Practical mastery" i can almost understand where he is coming from. I just took it as point blank 100% of the time. With a good deck like a Turners Bicycle or a bee's i feel confident about my table faro but realistically i will always have in my mind "what if i miss" and if i do, i wont, like others have said just pull the packet apart and do another trick. I will do a strip out and a false cut and then try again. I find if i feel i have that choice it takes the pressure off my table faro.

I have not had the luxury of talking to top card workers apart from Bill Malone on the phone once and he too echoed what you have said about the top guy's also missing.

I think the point is if you can miss, Steve Forte can miss, Richard Turner can miss, Martin Nash can miss.... well we should all feel slightly better about ourselves :)

Kindest regards,

Chris

If it were a bet, you would miss:)


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Haha, yes, your probably right!, although i have been able to do a few table faro's under pressure playing a friendly poker game with a few friends... Well it was a friendly game till now :)

jdwatchboy
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby jdwatchboy » April 6th, 2017, 6:51 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
jdwatchboy wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:Jason,

I totally understand where you are coming from Jason and of course if like you say RogerM is referring to "Practical mastery" i can almost understand where he is coming from. I just took it as point blank 100% of the time. With a good deck like a Turners Bicycle or a bee's i feel confident about my table faro but realistically i will always have in my mind "what if i miss" and if i do, i wont, like others have said just pull the packet apart and do another trick. I will do a strip out and a false cut and then try again. I find if i feel i have that choice it takes the pressure off my table faro.

I have not had the luxury of talking to top card workers apart from Bill Malone on the phone once and he too echoed what you have said about the top guy's also missing.

I think the point is if you can miss, Steve Forte can miss, Richard Turner can miss, Martin Nash can miss.... well we should all feel slightly better about ourselves :)

Kindest regards,

Chris

If it were a bet, you would miss:)


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Haha, yes, your probably right!, although i have been able to do a few table faro's under pressure playing a friendly poker game with a few friends... Well it was a friendly game till now :)

My kids 30 to 36 will not play cards with me.


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Denis Behr
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Re: Published Gambling moves Vs Magicians Sleights

Postby Denis Behr » April 7th, 2017, 5:49 am

Jason England wrote:The fact is, every magician misses from time to time, on just about every move.

I agree, and that is what I was trying to imply with my snappy remark earlier in this thread.

If it ever comes to a verification of the claim, I'd like it staged in the way of the famous Roald Dahl story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_from_the_South


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