Magicians stealing

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mrgoat
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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 17th, 2014, 9:39 am

Kent Gunn wrote:Damian, speaking of thieves, you've stolen my heart.

KG


:)

Love you too Mr G

You stole my heart at the Genii bash. Great car, lovely guitar, top steak and then your filthy version of the cups and balls. I was smitten. And will always be yours.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby erdnasephile » April 17th, 2014, 10:28 am

This issue, which has played out countless of times on this forum (and will continue to do so in the future), almost always ends up at the final common denominator of: "Where do you draw the line?" (as Quentin has adroitly pointed out above).

It's easy to create hypotheticals that will twist and confound almost any ethical stance as black/white moralistic concerns confront reality.

Is it lost income that's important? How much we like/hate the alleged perpetrator (or convention sponsor)? The legality? The principle itself? Such arguments typically involve all manner of biases, belief systems, ethical constructs, and even nationalism. Heck, even Dr. Suess gets some play ("Stealing is stealing no matter how...")

I rather like Helder Guimaraes' stance referenced earlier as I adapt it in my mind to pertain to this issue. Namely: sure you can get away with it, but why would you want to? What does that say about you as a performer? As a person? Can't we, I, do better?

That said, IMHO there needs to be room to construct such routines as the brilliant one published by Max Maven in Genii a couple of years ago involving movie posters. In it, he recommends finding images of movie posters in a book or on the web to print in the required size if one wishes to perform the trick.

Is Mr. Maven recommending thievery? May it never be! However, what some might term "fair use" causes others to scream "Stealing!"

All of the above, doesn't mean such discussions aren't worth having. For me, though, it does mean I've come to develop a bit of charity towards thoughtful people who disagree with my particular stance on this topic as I consider their own unique points of view.

We now return you to the regularly scheduled bromance still in progress... :D

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby R.E.Byrnes » April 22nd, 2014, 4:54 pm

This could go either way (under US law), for some of the reasons noted above. However, it would be very easy to make a few small adjustments to the routine that would make it highly likely to be deemed protected artistic expression and thus non-infringing. As a practical matter, if Fox as the copyright holder did bring an infringement action against a magician of average magician means, it would be reasonable to expect Fox to prevail if the legal issues were a toss-up or even if the law somewhat disfavored Fox as an objective matter. Again, though, it's very easy to get something like this in the realm of parody or other protected uses. (I don't know why public domain entered the discussion; it's not remotely relevant here.) The advice I'd give the performer, therefore, is to keep his act exactly as it is, until receiving a demand letter contending there's an infringement. If that letter never comes, just keep the act status quo forever. If such a letter does come, only then make the changes that shift the act to being clearly non-infringing.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 22nd, 2014, 5:20 pm

Interesting.

So it's cool to steal and resell other people's IP as long as you don't get a cease and desist. And if you do, tweak it so you can still get away th the theft.

Nice.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Bill Mullins » April 22nd, 2014, 5:26 pm

R.E.Byrnes wrote: (I don't know why public domain entered the discussion; it's not remotely relevant here.)


There are two items possibly being "stolen" here.
1. Use of the images of the Simpsons in the trick.
2. The structure and method of the trick (the book with pages divided into three, and with long/short ends).

I think the reference to "public domain" is only to #2. It may be public domain, it may belong to Mark Shortland, David Garrand, Sammy Smith, or some other magician.


Obviously the Simpsons are not public domain. (Whether or not the way Shortland is using them is legal -- fair use, with permission, parody/satire, etc. -- is a different question and one that no one on this forum is qualified to answer)

And advice to keep on using the copyrighted property of Matt Groening or Fox Studios until they notice, hoping to slide under their radar, is extraordinarily bad advice. But anyone who takes legal advice from some random dude on the internet deserves pretty much what he gets, I suppose.
Last edited by Bill Mullins on April 22nd, 2014, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby AJM » April 22nd, 2014, 5:28 pm

Damian - what is your view on folks who circumvent region blocking on sites like iPlayer or ITVPlayer?

Andrew

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 22nd, 2014, 5:51 pm

AJM wrote:Damian - what is your view on folks who circumvent region blocking on sites like iPlayer or ITVPlayer?

Andrew


They are breaking the law and scoffing at copryright and IP. One hopes people take this as implicit permission to pirate any copyrighted material the law breakers put out.

I edited rk's post explaining and instructing people to break the law accordingly.

What really gets my goat is the hypocrisy of magi. Stealing DVDs and books is bad. Stealing tv programmes is fine. I hope they get their just desserts.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Dustin Stinett » April 22nd, 2014, 8:23 pm

I was pretty much ignoring this until it was brought to my attention that I have been somewhat misrepresented by the following:
mrgoat wrote:Reselling the material Daniels stole from the BBC is fine and supported by Dustin. That is what gets my goat. As t'were.

I never "supported' any such thing Damian.

All I said was that you can surmise but cannot prove that Paul Daniels had no right to sell material that even you must admit was, at the very least, the fruits of his labour (spelled it that way just for you).

Because I had no proof that they were in fact "pirated," because the material was that of the artist being sold by a guy who bought it from that same artist, I felt I had no standing to delete the ad. That was my only point on that thread. If Paul D. was selling TV appearances by Wayne Dobson, that would be another matter (and a fun bit of gossip, but I digress).

I hope that clears things up for you DamiAn, you rogue you (to pirate a phrase).

By the way, Wayne D. sells his own TV appearances too.

Dustin

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 23rd, 2014, 9:10 am

Dustin Stinett wrote:I was pretty much ignoring this until it was brought to my attention that I have been somewhat misrepresented by the following:
mrgoat wrote:Reselling the material Daniels stole from the BBC is fine and supported by Dustin. That is what gets my goat. As t'were.

I never "supported' any such thing Damian.


You supported it by not deleting the ad.

It is obvious it's pirated because the content was never released on DVD and the rights are owned by the BBC. You are assuming innocence, where you should be assuming guilt. What I would have done in your shoes:

a) Checked if the content was ever officially released by the rights holder. When I realise it wasn't, I'd have pulled the ad

b) Ask the poster for photographs of the discs. When I saw they were home burned DVDs, I'd have pulled the ad.

c) Just had some common sense, realised this was pirated content and pulled the ad.

But it's cool. I get it. Magic DVD piracy is bad. TV piracy is perfectly acceptable.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Dustin Stinett » April 23rd, 2014, 11:45 am

Oh DamiAn, I'll tell you what: YOU become the Marketplace Cop and contact EVERY seller for photos of what they are selling to make sure they are okay. I'll let YOU assume everyone is guilty.

As far as I know, the BBC never released Wayne's stuff themselves. And as far as I know it's legal; he's selling it.

What makes you think that there is a large enough market for this stuff—both Dobson's and Daniels'—that the TV companies would manufacture and sell it themselves? If there was, they WOULD have released it themselves already. They don't because their market research tells them that the household penetration for such a product is miniscule and not worth the cost of production and marketing.

I know this because it's exactly why Paramount will never release "The Magician" on DVD and the Carson Entertainment Group (Jeff Sotzing, a magic aficionado like his uncle) will never release a DVD with all the magicians that appeared on the Tonight Show on it. (But what does a 25-plus-year marketing professional know about stuff like that?)

So, again, what actual PROOF do you have that Daniels didn't get an "okay" to do this except for your beliefs?

Never mind: that is a rhetorical question because I already know your answer.

For the second time, I'm done with this nonsense.

Dustin

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 23rd, 2014, 2:51 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:Oh DamiAn, I'll tell you what: YOU become the Marketplace Cop and contact EVERY seller for photos of what they are selling to make sure they are okay. I'll let YOU assume everyone is guilty.


My pleasure. It's not that hard. Has the DVD been released commercially by the rights holder? No? Well then ask for a photo. If it's clearly pirated, remove the ad.

When do I start?

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Dustin Stinett » April 23rd, 2014, 3:47 pm

Not going to happen because you just blew your interview.

The answer you would have received from that seller would have been "Yes" (after all, Paul Daniels was selling Paul Daniels material as far as the buyers know--and you still cannot offer proof, other than your opinion, of it being otherwise).

You then would be in a position to call the seller a liar and would have deleted the ad. Then the seller would have contacted Richard to complain about the moderator and this is exactly the knucklehead kind of stuff Richard doesn't want to deal with.

Sorry.

Dustin

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Bill Mullins » April 23rd, 2014, 4:02 pm

Maybe relevant, maybe not . . .

Some Random Internet Guy used to blog about the ebay transactions of Paul Daniels (the internet is full of wondrous things, is it not?)

In 2007, Daniels listed and sold homebrewed DVDs of his show Wizbit.
Paul's listing continues, "...I recently acquired all rights to Wizbit, the magical character from the planet of WOW. Amongst the assets were some original recordings on the old 1" tapes and I have had them copied onto DVD by a professional company."


Paul Daniels bought a DVD duplicator.

Even though Damian has said that the BBC doesn't release its shows, I doubt that this is pirated.


Now it may be that PD is a thief, who stole from the BBC, and who lied on ebay. Or it may be that he did what he said, and acquired the rights to his shows and is legally producing and selling DVDs of them. No one on this forum knows.

And since we don't know, it isn't our business.

There have been times when I've seen something being sold that looked hinky to me, and I've notified the rights holder. Sometimes I was right, sometimes I was wrong. That's as far as my obligation goes, and if I were to try to interefere directly in the sale, I'd be wrong (you can get sued in America for things like tortious interference). Jeff Busby used to interefere in legal ebay sales of Paul Fox items, and he was wrong.

If I were a moderator here, I wouldn't delete a post on piracy grounds based only the say-so of a 3rd party.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 23rd, 2014, 4:32 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:Not going to happen because you just blew your interview.

The answer you would have received from that seller would have been "Yes" (after all, Paul Daniels was selling Paul Daniels material as far as the buyers know--and you still cannot offer proof, other than your opinion, of it being otherwise).


Oh gosh. Come on Dustin. You're better than this.

The answer would have been no. The material HAS NEVER BEEN RELEASED on DVD.

I can prove it has never been released on DVD. Because it has never been released on DVD.

So, obviously, it is pirated.

All you needed to do was ask him for a photo of it, then you would have seen it was not a BBC release.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 23rd, 2014, 4:36 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Even though Damian has said that the BBC doesn't release its shows


No, they release their shows all the time. BBC Worldwide is massive. But Daniel's shows have not been released on DVD.

Bill Mullins wrote:If I were a moderator here, I wouldn't delete a post on piracy grounds based only the say-so of a 3rd party.


Me neither. I would delete them based on common sense after I asked the seller to send a picture and the picture was obviously not official.

But, as I said. TV piracy is fine, Magic DVD piracy is bad. I get it.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Bill Mullins » April 23rd, 2014, 4:58 pm

mrgoat wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:Even though Damian has said that the BBC doesn't release its shows


No, they release their shows all the time. BBC Worldwide is massive. But Daniel's shows have not been released on DVD.


You said
mrgoat wrote: Unarguably they own the rights to the shows and have never released them.


It is quite arguable that they own the shows. Daniels acquired the rights to Wizbit, back from the BBC, and a "best of" Paul Daniels Magic Show has been released in both VHS and DVD.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 23rd, 2014, 6:47 pm

Bill Mullins wrote: a "best of" Paul Daniels Magic Show has been released in both VHS and DVD.


Hmm, not sure that citing a hooky looking DVD on a site full of pirated content would get you good marks at school.

Can you find any non-ebay links to the DVD, when it was released etc? I had a look and cannot find any.

The large version of the DVD you linked to doesn't at all look like a professional designed it, nor are there any BBC logos or anything on it, which makes me think it is hooky.

Image

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Tom Pilling » April 23rd, 2014, 7:05 pm

At the risk of breaking taboos and straying into the realms of common sense for a minute: why the hell shouldn't Paul Daniels sell films of his own performances?

I don't mean legally, I mean morally and ethically. I have lawyers on all sides of the family, it's not the legal issue I'm thinking of. Why the bloody hell should anyone, particularly on this forum, object to Paul Daniels selling footage of himself to other magicians? Who the **** gives a ****?

Fair ****s to the guy, he paid his dues, and he paid the wages of a lot of BBC staff for many, many years. Auntie doesn't seem to be bothered, so why should anyone else be bothered by it?

Perhaps the Magic Circle should be informed? And while we're at it, why not the Stasi? I'm sure there are still a few of them knocking around who haven't persecuted anyone since the wall came down. Why not them too?

Paul's political views may not adhere to mine, for instance, as I am slightly to the left of Genghis Khan, but give the guy a frigging break already.

Similarly, I really wonder if Groenig would lose any sleep over this flickbook whatsoever. Actually, I don't wonder, as I am fairly sure he couldn't give a tinker's cuss. Rupert Murdoch might care, and so I urge each and every one of you to buy this flickbook immediately, particularly if it is unlicensed.

And the chap earlier makes a good point, it's poor form to rant all over the internet without checking the facts. I know, because I do it all the time. I have no idea about Mr Shortland. Never met him, never bought one of his tricks, wouldn't recognise him in the street. But if he is poking Rupert's eye with a sh*tty stick, then I'll order ten of his books right now.

Love and kisses.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 23rd, 2014, 7:32 pm

Oy. Everyone just shut up already.
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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby PapaG » April 23rd, 2014, 7:32 pm

Tom Pilling wrote:At the risk of breaking taboos and straying into the realms of common sense for a minute: why the hell shouldn't Paul Daniels sell films of his own performances?

I don't mean legally, I mean morally and ethically. I have lawyers on all sides of the family, it's not the legal issue I'm thinking of. Why the bloody hell should anyone, particularly on this forum, object to Paul Daniels selling footage of himself to other magicians? Who the **** gives a ****?

Fair ****s to the guy, he paid his dues, and he paid the wages of a lot of BBC staff for many, many years. Auntie doesn't seem to be bothered, so why should anyone else be bothered by it?

Perhaps the Magic Circle should be informed? And while we're at it, why not the Stasi? I'm sure there are still a few of them knocking around who haven't persecuted anyone since the wall came down. Why not them too?

Paul's political views may not adhere to mine, for instance, as I am slightly to the left of Genghis Khan, but give the guy a frigging break already.

Similarly, I really wonder if Groenig would lose any sleep over this flickbook whatsoever. Actually, I don't wonder, as I am fairly sure he couldn't give a tinker's cuss. Rupert Murdoch might care, and so I urge each and every one of you to buy this flickbook immediately, particularly if it is unlicensed.

And the chap earlier makes a good point, it's poor form to rant all over the internet without checking the facts. I know, because I do it all the time. I have no idea about Mr Shortland. Never met him, never bought one of his tricks, wouldn't recognise him in the street. But if he is poking Rupert's eye with a sh*tty stick, then I'll order ten of his books right now.

Love and kisses.



Quite.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Tom Pilling » April 23rd, 2014, 7:49 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Oy. Everyone just shut up already.


Oh, alright then.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby R.E.Byrnes » April 26th, 2014, 11:47 am

"And advice to keep on using the copyrighted property of Matt Groening or Fox Studios until they notice, hoping to slide under their radar, is extraordinarily bad advice. But anyone who takes legal advice from some random dude on the internet deserves pretty much what he gets, I suppose."


That's one kind of advice you're likely to get from a lawyer who handles real intellectual property cases, as opposed to magicians on some message board posting nice-sounding platitudes. If it were clearly infringing, the advice would tend to be different. But it's far from settled that the described use is infringing (the Simpsons images; it didn't seem that there was any interest at all in discussing the coloring book trick itself),

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Tom Pilling » April 26th, 2014, 8:19 pm

Anyone who has travelled the world in the last umpteen years will have observed tens of thousands of unlicensed images, on T-shirts, bags, phone covers, you name it.

This item, I would assume, is on a comparatively minuscule run. Who cares about it? Is it worth a lawsuit? No. It is not.

Yes, nobody would sensibly advise anyone else to try to slyly cheat on copyright belonging to anyone, let alone Fox.

But a bit of perspective, eh?

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby R.E.Byrnes » April 28th, 2014, 10:11 pm

Again, the advice wouldn't be to "slyly cheat." Like many legal issues, this one doesn't have a clear resolution; it might be infringing or it might not be as performed. There are small adjustments that could likely put it decisively into the realm of parody. And if it were infringing, an initial cease and desist letter from the copyright holder could provide a basis for correcting the infringement, but on compromise terms, not according to corporate fiat.

Every day lawyers give advice to persist in conduct that could engender litigation, including copyright infringement; to breach contracts; or to challenge bad laws with the goal of changing them. It is far more common that large companies pursue frivolous infringement actions than they are infringed on in ways that give rise to meaningful damages. In a common law system like ours where lawyers are advocates for their side and aren't duty-bound to do an opponent's legal analysis, new laws only come from disputes. In the absence of disputes -- lawsuits -- the law stays static. That a few well-meaning but under-informed magicians on a message board are certain that a copyright in The Simpsons' images is being infringed is far from the end of the conversation, and even if they are right it isn't, standing alone, a reason to smugly claim that no rational lawyer would advise the client to persist in conduct that might be infringing today, but not after a lawsuit challenging the current doctrine re-makes it, incrementally.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 29th, 2014, 12:00 am

mrgoat wrote:All you needed to do was ask him for a photo of it, then you would have seen it was not a BBC release. So, obviously, it is pirated.


By that reasoning, then I assume you would also accuse Dean Dill of selling pirated material, as his appearance on The Tonight Show is included on this dvd... Image
Obviously not a Carson Productions release.
So, obviously, it is pirated.
Correct?

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 29th, 2014, 4:37 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:
mrgoat wrote:All you needed to do was ask him for a photo of it, then you would have seen it was not a BBC release. So, obviously, it is pirated.


By that reasoning, then I assume you would also accuse Dean Dill of selling pirated material, as his appearance on The Tonight Show is included on this dvd... Image
Obviously not a Carson Productions release.
So, obviously, it is pirated.
Correct?


RK told us all in no uncertain terms to shut up about this. I can follow simple instructions, so I am.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Q. Kumber » April 29th, 2014, 5:18 am

mrgoat wrote:

RK told us all in no uncertain terms to shut up about this. I can follow simple instructions, so I am.


See what happens once you get married!

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby mrgoat » April 29th, 2014, 6:39 am

Q. Kumber wrote:
mrgoat wrote:

RK told us all in no uncertain terms to shut up about this. I can follow simple instructions, so I am.


See what happens once you get married!


:D

Tis our first anniversary on Sunday!

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 29th, 2014, 8:08 am

mrgoat wrote:I was at a lecture at the Magic Circle last night and comedy magician mark shortland lectured. He was selling (I assume) an effect with a flick book with artwork from The Simpsons.

I would be surprised if he got permission to use the artwork.

Does this make him any better than people pirating magic DVDs or the same?

Be more than happy to apologise if this is an official licensed product. But I kinda doubt it is.



Simpler to send a note to FOX with a video of the guy performing and ask them if they are licensing Simpson's images and if so how you can obtain license for a trick you want to sell? Why fuss here when it's their property?

About the magic shop market - if you recall the works of DeKolta, Germain, Hofzinser... it's not news that there's a demand for novelty and suppliers willing to offer product.

Paul Daniel's WizBit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizbit or http://www.jedisparadise.co.uk/4/Wizbit.htm
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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Bill Mullins » April 29th, 2014, 9:02 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
mrgoat wrote:I was at a lecture at the Magic Circle last night and comedy magician mark shortland lectured. He was selling (I assume) an effect with a flick book with artwork from The Simpsons.

I would be surprised if he got permission to use the artwork.



Simpler to send a note to FOX with a video of the guy performing

Where does he get such a video?

You're not suggesting, are you, that he surreptitiously record the magician's act? That would be a violation of his IP rights . . .

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 29th, 2014, 9:17 am

too many pronouns there to comment, Bill. But if the room security footage happens to show a guy putting FOX material on public display in paid use ...it can't hurt to ask FOX how you can get permission to use similar material. Just saying...

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Bill Mullins » April 29th, 2014, 9:23 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:too many pronouns there to comment, Bill.
And yet you did . . .

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 29th, 2014, 9:24 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:too many pronouns there to comment, Bill.
And yet you did . . .

I did what?
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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Bill Mullins » April 29th, 2014, 9:32 am

Commented

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 29th, 2014, 9:47 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Commented


Commented on the pronouns? Not sure who the "he"s are all the way through. In the mean time did someone steal somone's art or sell someone else's copyrighted product? And if so is it okay since it's such a tiny market in the magic shop unless the person who's being copied is somehow more "special" than some others are at the moment?
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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Bill Mullins » April 29th, 2014, 10:09 am

Jon -- sometimes your posts are elliptical, at best, and I try to read them interpreting what I think you've meant. For example, "too many pronouns there to comment, Bill" has no verb. I read it as "[Your post has] too many pronouns there [for me] to comment [on it], Bill." If that wasn't what you were attempting to convey, I'm sorry. But I'd also point out that if what you want to do is communicate clearly, subjects and predicates are quite useful.

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Re: Magicians stealing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 29th, 2014, 10:38 am

Though this is what I'd usually write as a PM:

Bill, your earlier post had several he and his references which left me wondering if you were going for humor. I see the underlying matter as significant in our community and proceeded in writing to that matter without comment on the he/his.

When "he" stops turning over the card then turning it back face down I'll compile less amusement into my typology.

IP b mine meme in copywrong for only ten dollars and ninety nine cents so's not to publicly expose at the circle?

decently,

JonT
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


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