Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

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Bob Farmer
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Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 11th, 2013, 7:27 pm

I am now working every night to complete the Ten Card Poker Deal book (aka THE BAMMO TEN CARD DEAL DOSSIER). With two kids in college, I have no choice. One of the topics I want to cover is how it was invented. My initial thoughts from 2005 are below. Please add your comments and criticisms. I know the original version was with a full deck, but the inventor must have worked back from the ending, so--

1. To make the problem simpler, the inventor probably reduced it to ten cards because he knew that's how the thing would end with two, 5-card hands.

2. The hands could not match, because that would be a draw, so he knew he couldn't have royal flushes, so that eliminated 4 hands.

3. For a similar reason, any straight flush would also be eliminated, so those hands were eliminated. (I'm not saying he didn't experiment here, because obviously you could have one straight flush beating another, but that means you would need a much more limited set of cards and I assume a cheater wants something he can assemble quickly.

So, he eliminates any sequence of x, x+1, x+2, x+3, x+4.

4. Because of #3, he also eliminates simple straights.

5. Flushes die for the same reasons.

6. There are only 13 Four of a kind hands, so again this makes the cards needed too rare and the winning hand too pat.

7. A no pair hand with one high card looks promising because whoever gets the high card wins, but there may be arrangements of the 10 cards which would give some other hand, so two, no pair hands with a high card in one cannot be guaranteed.

8. So that leaves the following hands as possibilities:

Full house AAA BB

Three of a kind CCC DE

Two Pairs FF GG H

One Pair II JKL

9. The ending must be that one hands beats the other there can be no ties. So the cheater takes the first two hands, a full house and 3oaK and looks at them:

AAA BB

CCC DE

A little experimentation shows that D and E are bad choices because the hands could come out:

AAA BD

CCC BE

but the cheater realizes that if the D was a B, he'd be fine.

That gives him the AAA BB CCC BE set. Now he plays with this and realizes that whoever gets the E loses and that works for a full house and 3oaK, but as he does this, he'll see the other results:

There are only three combinations of hands:

Full house beats 3ofaK

3ofaK beats Two pairs.

Two pairs beat one pair.

Tom Frame
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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Tom Frame » July 11th, 2013, 9:08 pm

Bob,

Considering that you've been talking about this impending book since the latter part of the 19th century, I'm pleased as punch to hear that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Let's hope that it's not merely a moose sporting a miner's lamp.

As I type this, I'm giving you a standing ovation for your insightful, analytical assessment of the "creator's" developmental process. Bravo!

Tom

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Matthew Field
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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Matthew Field » July 12th, 2013, 7:37 am

Tom -- what is the moose doing in the tunnel?

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 12th, 2013, 8:01 am

The Moose is doing the Ten Card Poker Deal, what else would he be doing in the tunnel!

Tom is right, I've been working on this for so long, some of my notes are on stone tablets, however, last night I finished sorting all the material into about 2.5 feet of three-ring binders, so I'm ready to roll.

You can thank Tim Trono and Mike Weber for this impetus--I can't say more here, but they suggested an idea to me that is so good, I just had to finish the book.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » July 12th, 2013, 8:33 am

Bob, you have to get this out before people stop reading completely!
I look forward to it and I hope my contribution makes the final cut.

Jeff Pierce
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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Ted M » July 13th, 2013, 5:52 pm

Woot!

Rejoice!

What next, word that Max Maven's long-anticipated book on the Gilbreath principle, Terrifying Beauty, is being readied for press as well?!

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bill Mullins » July 13th, 2013, 9:21 pm

Bob -- you describe the origins as an analytical process of elimination. Don't you think it is possible, if not even likely, that the trick came from simple noodling around with small groups of cards? Perhaps someone had occasion to pick up two hands in a deal, and when added together, those hands consisted of three triples and a single card. Our inventor played with those ten cards and realized that no matter how they were dealt, they resulted in two playable hands, but the one with the Jonah card always lost.

I realized that you've thought about the problem much more than I have (and much more than I will . . . )

And what is the origin of the term "Jonah Card"? Has it ever meant anything beyond its meaning here -- the card that makes you lose in 10 card poker? I'm reminded of the queen of spades in hearts, which we always called "the bitch" (but I see from googling that it is also called the Black Maria, which I've never heard in this context). Al Koran had a marketed effect ca. 1948 called "The Jonah Card", but from ads, it doesn't seem too related to how the term is used in 10Cpoker.

Why "Jonah"? It seems like "Judas" would make more sense -- whoever receives the card is betrayed by it. There's nothing about the story of Jonah that makes the allusion logical.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Max Maven » July 13th, 2013, 9:44 pm

Ted M wrote:What next, word that Max Maven's long-anticipated book on the Gilbreath principle, Terrifying Beauty, is being readied for press as well?!


Keep the faith.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Max Maven » July 13th, 2013, 9:49 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Why "Jonah"? It seems like "Judas" would make more sense -- whoever receives the card is betrayed by it. There's nothing about the story of Jonah that makes the allusion logical.


"Jonah" is old nautical slang, meaning someone or something that brings bad luck. In the biblical story of Jonah, he is thus defined by his shipmates, who therefore throw him overboard -- which leads to the better known part of the tale.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Ted M » July 13th, 2013, 10:24 pm

Max Maven wrote:

Ted M wrote:What next, word that Max Maven's long-anticipated book on the Gilbreath principle, Terrifying Beauty, is being readied for press as well?!


Keep the faith.


Yesssss!!

What a great day! My hope of seeing both these works has been rekindled! Thanks, Genii Forum!

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bill Mullins » July 14th, 2013, 1:30 am

Ah, thanks Max. Being educated like this reminds me that I have a dictionary, and I should use it from time to time. "Jonah" in this sense goes back to the 1880s in print (at least, as far as the OED and the RHHDAS know), and was so used by Kipling, among others.

But part of the question still remains. My cursory research shows that the term "Jonah card" became associated with the 10CPD ca. 1948 (Phoenix #168, Jan 1948), just before Koran released his trick of that name (in which, BTW, "Jonah" doesn't seem to connote bad luck). Is that simply coincidence? Or did Koran's trick influence the 10CPD in a way I don't understand?

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Max Maven » July 14th, 2013, 5:57 am

Koran was sloppy about titles (e.g., when he erroneously applied the "Princess Card" appellation to a completely different trick). Given that his marketed "Jonah Card" had no similarity of plot or method to the Ten-Card Deal, I would assume that either it was purely a coincidence or, more likely, that he'd heard the term right around the time he released his trick, and found it appealing.

Either way, I do not think it has any true connection to the terminology as commonly employed to define the "unlucky" card in the Ten-Card Poker Deal.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 14th, 2013, 7:53 am

Gary Ouellet tried to change the tide by using "Judas" in his description of a Tony Binarelli routine. When you think about it, it's much more appropriate since not only is there betrayal, but betrayal for money. "Jonah" comes from the Biblical whale tale of throwing Jonah off the ship (he was bad luck) and into the mouth of a whale.

I have coined a new term: the Jekyll & Hyde card--a card that changes its polarity and causes either a winning or losing hand. No, it's not a double-ended or other kind of gaffed card. This is a brand new idea that will only appear in THE BAMMO TEN CARD DEAL DOSSIER.

It WILL NOT appear in the Max Maven book.

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Matthew Field
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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Matthew Field » July 14th, 2013, 8:32 am

Very glad to hear you're finally publishing something that Max hasn't published first.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 14th, 2013, 10:23 am

Yes, I'm breaking new ground not only for myself but for at least 1200 other magicians.

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AJM
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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby AJM » July 14th, 2013, 10:41 am

All we need now is Todd Karr to announce the publication date of Encyclopedia of Impromptu Magic...

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby erdnasephile » July 14th, 2013, 1:54 pm

AJM wrote:All we need now is Todd Karr to announce the publication date of Encyclopedia of Impromptu Magic...

Andrew


Roger that...

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 16th, 2013, 8:12 am

Among the lesser-known names put forward as the gamblers or magicians who brought the idea to the magic world are:

Dan E. Meyers
Johnny Lobato
Myron Long
Laurie Ireland

Of course, Vernon and Marlo have also taken credit, but if anyone has any information about the four above and their relationship to the TCD, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

My email: trickmail@cogeco.ca


In addition, maybe I should compile a list of favorite routines, so if you ahve one, let me know. I just got a big vote for Woody Aragon's routine.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Steve Bryant » July 16th, 2013, 8:31 am

Patrick G. Redford's 30 Card Poker (3 banks of 10) from Sqaure is excellent. It was a big hit in his lecture and different from most other routines I've seen or tried.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 16th, 2013, 10:45 am

Steve: yes, that is an excellent routine.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 17th, 2013, 10:43 am

I need a reference from Karl Fulves' "Swindle Sheet." It's an article on Dan E. Meyers that appears on pages 90 and 91--but I don't have any other details (volume, issue, date, etc.).

If anyone can help, I would be most appreciative.

Thank you.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 17th, 2013, 4:01 pm

Reference received thank you!

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 20th, 2013, 12:14 pm

In his Linking Ring Parade (March 2005), Tony Binarelli mentions that the Ten Card Deal principle is describe in ROYAL ROAD. I haven't been able to find it (the reference, I found the book)--maybe I just can't see it. Anyone else see it?

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 20th, 2013, 5:32 pm

I have a hard copy of The Cardiste and in #6, March 1958, a reader writes in to ask if Rusduck has ever played with the Ten Card Deal. Does anyone have a searchable copy? If so, if you could search and let me know if anything turns up, I'd appreciate it. I'm dedicated to this project, but reading through the entire magazine may cause a comatose state.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 20th, 2013, 6:12 pm

Cardiste is on Ask Alexander.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 20th, 2013, 6:15 pm

Paging Tim Ellis: Tim please send me an email to trickmail@cogeco.ca -- I need to know the year you first marketed The Ten Card Poker deal for my reference list.

Thank you.

Bob

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 20th, 2013, 8:14 pm

Mark Ratekin came up with the Cardiste reference--thank you Mark. I would have replied but there is no reply button on my version of private messages.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Pete McCabe » July 20th, 2013, 9:51 pm

I love Tony's idea where the spectator shuffles the cards and deals them, without the magician doing anything.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 21st, 2013, 7:40 am

Pete, Binarelli's routine was not the first to allow this.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 28th, 2013, 11:53 am

Looking for any information on Dom Cervas.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Joe Pecore » July 28th, 2013, 12:09 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:Looking for any information on Dom Cervas.

http://www.geniimagazine.com/magicpedia/Dom_Cervas
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » July 28th, 2013, 2:34 pm

Thank you. That's exactly what I needed.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » August 13th, 2013, 5:15 pm

Any U.K. magicians out there with a complete ABRA index?

I need the year for:

Abra 2548 Poker Deal pp. 628-631.

Dr. Michael Colley has an index, but my attempts to contact him have failed.

If anyone can assist, I would be most appreciative.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Shazzbatt » August 14th, 2013, 4:51 pm

Bob, I think Ask Alexander allows you to search Abra.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bill Mullins » August 14th, 2013, 5:22 pm

AAlex does include a run of Abra, but not the issue in question.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » August 14th, 2013, 7:43 pm

The mystery deepens...

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Joe Pecore » August 14th, 2013, 9:15 pm

Based on the fact that Abra started in Feb. of 1946 and was a weekly magazine, I calculate that issue no. 2548 should be in December of 1994 (if that helps any).
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bill Mullins » August 14th, 2013, 9:33 pm

Use that algorithm on Genii in the pre-Kaufman era . . .

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Bob Farmer » August 15th, 2013, 6:59 am

Thank you all--I have the answer from several people--it's Nov. 26, 1994, so Joe was almost right and I thank him for going to all that trouble.

The initial draft of the reference list has been completed and I'm now plowing (ironic farming reference) ahead with completing the book.

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Re: Inventing The Ten Card Poker Deal

Postby Harry Lorayne » August 15th, 2013, 11:45 am

Wow, just saw this thread, read it all. And here I always assumed I has SOMETHING to do with the 10-Card Poker Deal. Doubt it now. Although I've been told that I certainly popularized it when I published my routine back in the 1960s - I think. No big deal.


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