Is magic an art?

[Edward Pungot]

Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up. ―-Pablo Picasso

[JHostler]

Let's take as an example Michael Finney's masterful performance of "The Six Card Repeat."

...There is no "wow" involved, yet it's hard to deny that at many levels it's a successful performance.

Finney is BRILLIANT - but it's almost an insult to comedy to call him a magician. Mullica is one of the few who has successfully bridged astonishment/magic with humor. When I saw him in the late '80s, he had a packed room of magicians rolling on the floor... and that freakin' steal was absolutely undetectable.

[mrgoat]

In any event, I'm sort of surprised that you took this view, as you are one of the most consistently provocative and interesting posters here. More than a few times I'm sure someone began a thread and then emerged from it with their perspective transformed because of a strongly stated idea posted by you.

What view did I take? Someone said it was pointless, you disagreed, and I asked you what point it did make and what is the point of even discussing something that hasn't been defined.

:)

[R.E.Byrnes]

"What view did I take? Someone said it was pointless, you disagreed, and I asked you what point it did make and what is the point of even discussing something that hasn't been defined."

Sorry about that. I should follow these things more closely. I assumed that you had adopted that original point of view, whereas you were just focusing on the lack of an agreed definition part of it. You've always seemed open to free-wheeling discussions, in contrast to lots of people who are obsessed with every last detail or shutting down any discussion that might in any way be deemed "offensive." Lots of assumption in there, of course. You definitely didn't take the position I assumed; rather, you just asked about an apparent implication from someone else's point.

[Anthony Vinson]

What makes this craft different from what the monologuist or storyteller (or theatrical producer) offers?

Well for one thing, at least in my experience, most magicians are lousy storytellers. As a professional storyteller I frequently encounter magicians, usually while working for libraries during summer reading programs. (Hey, you gotta pay the bills!) Many of the magicians I see perform focus on the tricks to the exclusion of the story, and without the story they consistently fail to connect with the audience beyond any rudimentary level. The thing is, they don't seem to care.

I have asked a couple of these guys about the lack of emotional appeal in their acts and they insist that I have no concept of what they do. (I rarely let on that I am a lifelong hobbyist since I don't want to come across as some sort of dick. After all, it's not their technical abilities that I question. In fact, most of them are pretty good technically. It's obvious that they've practiced and rehearsed. They just can't seem to get beyond the tricks.)Oddly enough all they really need to do is look around since the magicians who are able to connect their tricks to some sort of story always seem to be in higher demand and are consequently able to demand higher fees. So, as a couple of the folks in the video said, I believe that performance may become art only when an emotional connection is established between the artist and the audience.

[Jonathan Townsend]

IMHO claiming a work to be art, as opposed to its being finely crafted or apt or decorative, opens a dialog about what the work brings to the craft that was not present in the craft before.

IMHO MDuchamp's playful observation that the works of industry can be (re)framed and (re)contextualized as works in their own right added to the available resources of the craft. In that same act (submission of the porcelain object with title 'fountain' under name RMott to showing), again IMHO , he opened a dialog about the implied "art gallery frame" that comes with making a claim that a thing is art and what limits there might be to what one can (or should?) put in such a frame.

[Jackie Huang]

If I can play Fantaisie-Impromptu on a piano Im a musician but does that makes me an artist?

If I can replicate Woman with a Hat on a canvas Im a painter but does that makes me an artist?

If I can perform Symphony of the Rings Im a magician but does that makes me an artist?

Is music an art?
Is painting an art?
Is magic an art?

[Edward Pungot]

Those would be cover artists.
What makes children artists in the purist sense?
The fact that they are fully and unashamedly themselves at all times (imitations and all).
They dont seem afraid of trying new things out and failing repeatedly, to truly discovering something worthwhile. The process itself becomes an artistic endeavor, a tireless and never ending exploration into the unknown. Artists are masters of this domain and conveying clearly and elegantly what they have found.

[Q. Kumber]

Magicians would be far better off working towards mastering their craft than engaging in pretentious waffle about being artists.

I agree there are some (very few) true artists in magic but each and every one of them has mastered their craft first.

Back in the early 1980's, I spoke with Johnny Lambert from Dublin who was in his last year at the Marcel Marceau mime school. I asked him if Marceau, with all his touring, taught much at the school.

Johnny replied that he did a bit but most of the teaching was done by others.

I asked if they were as good as Marceau.

His reply stunned me. He said that they were considerably better.

"Well", I asked, "if they are so good, why is he touring the world and they are teaching?"

"Because when they walk on stage, no one pays much attention, and when Marceau does, he commands and connects with the audience."

[Bibliophage]

Most magicians are "Cover Artists"

[Edward Pungot]

Director's Notes

[seraph127]

Is music an art?

Seems like a silly question. Music is an activity or the result of an activity. So the real issue is whether this or that particular activity or result is artistic.

It's not a question of whether magic is an art, but of some or other magical performance being artistic.

One problem here is that works of art often achieve their status only over the course of years, hundreds of them sometimes. A work of art is what some community, in this age or a far distant one, deems to be art. Or perhaps it's like Hilliard said in Greater Magic: since people usually can only be persuaded to cooperate when they perceive some interest, then what people conspire to pass down through the course of time must have some innate merit. So is "art" a title or a property?

How do I elevate my performance of some effect to the level of the artistic?

In Beyond Secrets Sankey asserts that magic can be artistic if it is self expression. But that seems only a necessary, not a sufficient condition. But it's a start. What do I want to communicate with my magic? Not necessarily some didactic message (though that may not be ruled out), but: What experience do I want spectators to have?

These days, one approach I take to this is by asking "What would I like to see performed, and in what manner. If I were the spectator, what experience would I like to have?"

But anyway, thanks for coming. You've been a great audience...

[Jonathan Pendragon]

Art's out back chopping wood.