ANNOUNCEMENT REGARDING THE FUTURE OF THE FORUM: SUBSCRIBERS ONLY STARTING NEXT WEEK

[Guest]

Originally posted by Craig Mitchell:

Would be interesting to know:

* whether any publication has experienced a similar issue specifically with a forum such as this

The only other similar situation I know of is a forum run by some people who publish a magazine about non-sports trading cards:
Non-Sports Update\'s Card Talk

They don't require subscription to participate. They do, however, run a fairly heavy editorial hand within their forum:
- No advertising without paying extra (essentially, you can buy classified ads)
- No mentions of competing magazines or forums
- No negative comments about magazine advertisers
- No links to ebay auctions
- Very strong pressure to "play nice" both from moderators and from other forum participants

It's their sandbox, so they get to make the rules (just like Richard), but the environment is completely different.

[Guest]

I certainly support Richard's decision. This forum is a goldmine of rich experiences and knowledge, which will continue to be available to everyone to read if I understood correctly. Registered users have benefited in the past not only by sharing knowledge, but for those that create, sell or perform, have gained free exposure and are accessible with web and email addresses for those that want to inquire further - not bad for the price of a subscription to a premier magazine.

[Carlo Morpurgo]

Originally posted by Craig Mitchell:
Hi Richard

This is clearly a big step for you and I'm sure you have applied your mind ...

"Charging for access to a website really doesn't work: the number of people who feel everything on the internet should be free is very large; the number of people who want to pay for it is very small. Both The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times tried charging for internet access--both eventually relented and discontinued the charge. I don't want to charge for the Genii Forum--I think that's a bad idea. We'll end up with 150 people here."

Ultimately the big question is how many non-Genii subscribers currently post to the forum ? If the majority of subscribers are the ones posting then effectively the status quo remains as is - and the quality of the forum remains the same. No problem.

If there is a large bulk of non-subscribers posting - they will either subscribe ( in which case Richard's incentive scheme has worked ) or they will go elsewhere. It could however be argued that you are indirectly 'charging' for the ability to post ... which as per the above - the pay per use model didnt work for the NY Times.

That is exactly what I was trying to convey in my response to the same RK post.

Ultimately I think the move is going to be a very good one for Genii or ultimately a bad one - I can't see the middle ground. But only time will tell.

There is another option: if things do not seem to go very well after a few months, Richard can always say : "SORRY! Just Joking! Anyone can post now! " (Like the NYT I guess...)

Carlo

[Matthew Field]

Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
Anything which benefits the advertiser benefits the publisher. [/QB]

This is too ludicrous to let slide by.

Cheaper ad rates, for example, benefit the advertiser. Do you want to argue that they benefit the publisher?

Matt Field (one-time magazine publisher)

[Guest]

Matthew,

Ad rates are tied to circulation among other things]. The higher the circulation, the more value the ad placement has to the advertiser. It is in the interest of Genii to have a higher circulation, even if they don't actually realise profit on those particular [sold at retail] issues.

What's so "ludicrous" about that?

Iain Hamilton
Current Advertising Consultant

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
Matthew,

Ad rates are tied to circulation among other things].

It's that "among other things" part that often gets in the way of profitable things. And that brings us full circle.

John

[Richard Kaufman]

Contrary to what seems to be developing as popular opinion here, I do not have a "scheme" (a word which has a negative connotation in the United States) to force people to subscribe to Genii.

My goal in turning the Forum into a subscriber-based board is to add a bonus for people who do subscribe, and to cut down on the number of people posting here who have been getting a free ride (fewer than 60% of the members of the Forum read the magazine) to sell stuff and bitch about everything. I think that the ability to sell items here should be restricted to those who buy the magazine. I can't see that there's anything unreasonable about that.

It also seems obvious to me that most people who participate in the Forum have absolute NO idea how much time and energy this requires on a daily basis to keep it from turning into a total chaotic [censored].

Buying Genii requires a small economic commitment, and that very action says something about the person who does it--and that's the type of person I want posting on this Forum. Not people who are too damn cheap to buy the magazine that supports this board and in turn want to complain about everything in magic and provoke arguments.

[Guest]

Well said, Richard. You have my vote! :) :) :)
Ken Becker

[John McDonald]

I for another, want to thank all at Genii for all the hard work that you do behind the scenes on the forum. You have my full support. It must be a daily bind sometimes - I drift in and out when the mood takes me - you guys are here all the time.

And agreeing with others in this thread it is fascinating to read discussions of the quality on this forum.

I re-read the chapter on the Berglas effect from David Britland's David Berglas book last night after reading a thread on ACAAN. It is the quality on here that I love. Although I can't say that my posts are of any quality it is fascinating to hear the discusssions. Akin to sitting in the Ruskin hotel at 2am. Thanks guys.

[Guest]

I guess that means I'll lose my forum member #139 (even though I am a subscriber). I was actually quite proud of joining so early, even if by proud I mean in a kind-of lonely and pathetic way.

[Guest]

I personally don't mind . . .

It seems to me this is a preventative measure to keep the Genii Forum from becoming another Cafe' . . . I'll glad fork over my $$$$ for that luxury!

[Kevin Connolly]

OK. Deal me in. I'd be lost with out this place and the people that contribute here.

If you really think about it, it's really the ONLY place on the net like it. :genii:

[Guest]

Hi Richard

Sorry for the choice of word - "scheme" doesn't have the same meaning in SA as it clearly does in the US ... we have savings schemes here, insurance schemes, motor schemes, residential schemes ... it ultimately just means "plan" or "idea" ...

I fully see that you are wanting to offer an added incentive or bonus for subscribers and that's great.

People really enjoy the forum and naturally don't want to lose a good thing ... and if this is what is required in order to preserve it moving forward, then thats fantastic.

[Dave Shepherd]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
I think that the ability to sell items here should be restricted to those who buy the magazine. I can't see that there's anything unreasonable about that.

I remember the time when you could BUY a classified ad in Genii to sell your stuff. I'm trying to recall whether Richard did it, but the Larsons certainly did.

With a free forum, anybody and his cousin can come on here and sell stuff for FREE. That doesn't seem right to me.

[Guest]

I fully support Richard's decision on this.

The arguement that buying Genii from your local magic shop somehow supports that business is phoney. How many people use their Genii purchase as an excuse to visit the shop, see some demos and leave with a small purchase without feeling guilty? (Come on - we've all been there!)

Better to support both: subscribe to Genii, benefit from the reduced price and the forum, then make a meaningful purchase from your local shop. Oh, and buy MAGIC if you need to ease your conscience about walking out of the shop empty-handed.

[Dave Shepherd]

Originally posted by Carl Mercurio:
I guess that means I'll lose my forum member #139 (even though I am a subscriber). I was actually quite proud of joining so early, even if by proud I mean in a kind-of lonely and pathetic way.

Yeah, I'm going to miss being one of the first 200 Genii forum subscribers. (Unless I get on here really quick after the system is scrubbed.)

[Richard Kaufman]

I've come to another important decision.

One of the things I despise about modern life is when innocent people are deprived of things because of a few [censored].

So, I have decided to allow any person who purchases Genii from their local magic shop on a monthly basis to be allowed into the Forum. Yes, there will be a few sneaky [censored] who manage to talk their local dealer into lying for them. But there's no reason that the thousands of legitimate purchasers of Genii should suffer because of them.

So, there will be some work involved here, and it will have be done by those of you who purchase your copy from a shop on a monthly basis and wish to post here.
FIRST, you will need to explain to your local dealer what the situation is.
SECOND, you will need to ask your dealer to e-mail me a list of names and e-mail addresses of those people who purchase Genii from him on a monthly basis who wish to participate in the Forum.
THIRD, you will have to wait until you know that I've received the list, and then when I've responded to the e-mail from the dealer that I have the list, you will then need to go online and register. Anyone who tries to register and is not on the list will be rejected.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

Richard, I just subscribed, can I get a refund? LOL!
Just Kidding, I can do my part to save the world!

Jeff

[Sir Ross]

Hi Everyone,

I was surprised to see the post from Richard. After some initial confusion and reading the various posts, I'd think I can give an opinion.

I understand the vast amount of work it takes to a) run a web forum and b) run a niche market magazine. I had done both before and magazines are very hard to run. The demands are high and finances aren't the best.

US Postal policy regarding foreign mail has no doubt hurt the ability to ship to Canada. I'm in Canada and am sympathetic to the costs involved in shipping. It's one thing if you're shipping pallets of magazines (like Time or Newsweek do) or printing regioanlly in other countries, it's another if you're shipping ten or twenty to this city or that. I am guessing that its an extra cost you now have to absorb and time you have to commit. If so, you've been more than decent by not passing it on to us. Thank you.

It makes sense to cut back the work required to run this great forum by restricting posting to subscribers. Of course that presumes that there is set of people who will cut back use.

It's a hard job Richard and Co have to keep bringing us the great content they do each month. The forum is a a bonus.

In short, Richard, I'd like to say thank you and I will now consider that I'm getting more for my subscription with an additional bonus of forum membership.

A satisfied subscriber ;-)

[Guest]

Richard - that's a generous gesture that should please all.

I guess there are at least a couple of issues for you. There will be the work associated with processing the e-mails from the dealers (and probably the purchasers enquiring whether the dealer's e-mail has been received).

Give it a go and see how it works. There's always a 'Plan A' to fall back on.

[Guest]

That is generous, but appears to be creating a ton of work for yourself... Thought the goal was to cut your workload for the forum?

Tom

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
It also seems obvious to me that most people who participate in the Forum have absolute NO idea how much time and energy this requires on a daily basis to keep it from turning into a total chaotic [censored].

"Total chaotic [censored]" -- can I use that?

Also, what if I buy Mark Lewis a subscription?

[Bob Farmer]

I think we should restate the principle enunciated above and call it--

"Kaufman's First Law of Thermointerpersonaldynamics:

When in the course of human events, the actions of a few dickheads, morons, megadorks, schlubs, schmendricks or other lamebrained draggy-assed fools, would otherwise deprive the majority of innocent, well-intentioned and intelligent Genii readers of some beneficial service or good, such beneficial service or good shall be conferred, notwithstanding the aforesaid dickheads, morons, megadorks, schlubs, schmendricks or other lamebrained draggy-assed fools.

[Guest]

Just a couple of thoughts (sadly maybe my last?)

First, I hope your reasons for doing this isn't that you feel that this forum would be a big enough draw to get the few stragglers who aren't subscribers to subscribe? If so, I think that's flawed- I can't imagine it being as good a forum without the HUGE number of intelligent posters contributing. If the quality does go down, then there is no draw...

I'm sure it's something else, and that you've considered this.

Second, wouldn't the idea for in store purchasers you suggest mean more work for dealers with no additional benefits? I think a lot of dealers might be unwilling (though I hope they recognize it's not a lot of work, and are willing to help such a good cause).

Third, if you use the above, which seems heavily based on trust, couldn't you simplify everything but putting a different password in each Genii which resets every month? You might have problems with people who receive their mags late though...

You would also be able to create a special section only accessible to Genii subscribers...

Anywho, I've loved this site, all the guys on it, and I understand the situation and reasons.

All the best,
Ben Train

[Kevin Connolly]

Two Things

1 How will you handle the dickheads, as mentioned above by name, and others if they subscribe?

2 Now that everyone will be a subscriber, do you still need to have all your contact info posted on items you want to sell?

Thanks....

[Dave Andrews]

As you will see from my post count I am more a 'lurker'/ avid reader of this forum and I am sure everyone on here is more able magically than am I.
However, I would hate to lose the possibility of posting should something arise that I would like to respond to.
In additon, and in comparison with other forums (fora!), I really do appreciate the way this forum is run.
I have, therefore, taken out my subscription just a few minutes ago and my best wishes for a continuing bright future go to Mr Kaufman and his team.
By the way, if we ever meet, Richard, I would love you to show me some of the moves from your book on billiard ball manips. I have spent many a perplexing hour with some of them!

Dave

[Richard Kaufman]

Hi Dave, many thanks. I can still muddle through a few billiard ball sleights 30 years after the fact. With a little practice I can still do the Interlocked Production of Billiard Balls as well, though my balls aren't as big as they used to be. :)

Regarding Kevin's remark about selling things without posting all personal information: that would work if we weren't allowing people buying Genii in shops to participate. But we won't have the kind of contact information on those people, so I think that the requirements for selling things will remain the same.

[Guest]

As a long-time-lurker, I have almost never posted anything. I have subscribed on and off to Genii since the early 70's. I still thumb through those old Genii Magazines on the shelf.

I let my subscription expire a year or so ago, and all of this talk of not being able to post caused me to pull out my wallet... in case I have something to say someday.

In the meantime, I will lurk and get my monthly Genii.

[Guest]

"One of the things I despise about modern life is when innocent people are deprived of things because of a few [censored]." Kaufman..

Damn Richard!!! The only reason I frequented Genii was to cross swords with an occasional [censored]....

Hey, I love Genii Magazine and read it frequently...I also have decades of issues going way back....

The truth is that I receive several magazines per month and seldom get a chance to even rip off the plastic covers.....In addition, I spend most of my computer time playing around with old routines that I have done for decades....(There is more free stuff on line than there is for sale on the major junk-magic webs)....

In addition to the scores of Genii Magazines that I have and have not yet read, I have several of your books that I have yet to "un-wrap"........That does not mean that I don't want to read them; it means that I am getting to the point that much of the stuff I read is old and material that I only consider for MY ROUTINES...which are kind of old and routine.......

I am sorry that I have not yet sent my Bracelet routine for Magicana, which I promised long ago....I will try to get it videoed with some notes and send it .........well, one of these days when I can get some professional video help....

I am going to miss Genii Forum.......but Richard...I don't need any more magazines delivered to my home....I WILL MISS YOU...

Hey, I hope to see you in Alexandria in late March....

opie

[Leonard Hevia]

Richard--I faithfully purchased every issue of Genii at Barry's Magic Shop since you assumed the reigns. Have I not been a loyal subject of the Empire? Did I not assist in crushing the Rebellion in one swift stroke?

Please, don't push me in the Spartan hole...no... no...wait...I...AAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!

[Guest]

I subscribe to Genii because I enjoy the magazine and will continue to do so, whether there is an online forum or not.

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Alexander:
Like any small magazine, Genii is massively labor-intensive. The magazine is produced by a tiny number of people. Imagine running a business where every month you had to produce a new, high-quality product that was similar in format to the previous months product, but with all new content. Well, thats what magazine publishing is all abouta new production every single month of the year. How many of you could do that?

Well, if the local news-stand is any indication, hundreds and hundreds of folks. There are about thirty titles devoted to cats alone, and three for ferrets, plus a couple devoted to knives, a WHOLE BIG BUNCH on food, lots of literary criticism, a couple on computer hacking (2600 for example).

Having the knowledge to create such a product related to MAGIC, and to do so well, is where Richard provides the "value add."

[Kevin Connolly]

Not hundreds and hundreds. I think more people have an interest in cats, than magic. Two different scales of operations.

And people have more interest in small pussies than big cats. You can check your newstand for that too. :D

[Kevin Connolly]

Richard,

I was hoping that I wouldn't have to post all contact info for spam, privacy, etc. issues. If the person who buys the magazine at a magic shop, I can see posting their contact info.

PS If that item comes to the surface, please let me know.

[Richard Kaufman]

It's funny: I post my full e-mail address on here all the time and I receive are less spam than I used to!

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:

Originally posted by David Alexander:
Like any small magazine, Genii is massively labor-intensive. The magazine is produced by a tiny number of people. Imagine running a business where every month you had to produce a new, high-quality product that was similar in format to the previous months product, but with all new content. Well, thats what magazine publishing is all abouta new production every single month of the year. How many of you could do that?

Well, if the local news-stand is any indication, hundreds and hundreds of folks. There are about thirty titles devoted to cats alone, and three for ferrets, plus a couple devoted to knives, a WHOLE BIG BUNCH on food, lots of literary criticism, a couple on computer hacking (2600 for example).

Having the knowledge to create such a product related to MAGIC, and to do so well, is where Richard provides the "value add."

Bill,
As I thought self-evident, the "you" I was referring to was the collective that reads on this forum and the general magic population. So glad to have you re-explain my post, though, just to be certain the two or three people who mis-understood didn't miss what I was getting at. Thanks. :whack:

[Kevin Connolly]

I don't mind posting my e-mail address. It's my home phone and address that I have concerns with.

[Carlo Morpurgo]

Originally posted by Sir Ross:
In short, Richard, I'd like to say thank you and I will now consider that I'm getting more for my subscription with an additional bonus of forum membership.

Forgive me, but I have to say it: it's an illusion that subscribers will get MORE, as far as the forum is concerned. Current subscribers will get the same things as before. New subscribers will get the magazine and the same posting privileges as before. On the other hand, new non-subscribers will get less then current non-subscribers.

Of course, a subscriber can convince himself that he belongs to a special class, and that could feel like a bonus for some.

Carlo

[Richard Kaufman]

No, it's not an illusion. The only thing that's been an illusion is that people who've never supported Genii expect to have free access to an internet discussion board supported by the magazine. Their sense of entitlement is an illusion.

Since that entitlement is now going to end, Genii readers will in fact receive more for their money than non-readers.

[Guest]

Hello Richard as a current subscriber, I was going to allow my subscription to lapse
(I have one issue left) and start buying from the local shop... Kind of a solidarity thing. Now I will have to renew to keep getting my fix here. I just regret that I will probably lose my low number...203... Oh well...