Ladies who drive a deck well?

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 27th, 2002, 2:49 am

Ladies who perform good magic always make a big impact on me as I've been conditioned (sorry girls) to expect a magician to be male. Yeah, I know, I know ...

OK, so which ladies do the rest of you consider to be highly skilled with a deck of cards?

Just curious. Every day is a school day :)

Ben Harris · Postby **Ben Harris** » June 27th, 2002, 6:32 pm

Lisa!

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » June 27th, 2002, 6:36 pm

You must mean Lisa Menna? How about Jillian Gotlib (AKA "The Good Gypsy?)

Jade is no slouch either... there is gal from Argentina that really does an excellent card act that I have seen at the Magic Castle.

I am losing names as each year creeps by! ARgh...

Luis · Postby **Luis** » June 27th, 2002, 6:59 pm

Pete:

Are you talking about Alba?

Steve Bryant · Postby **Steve Bryant** » June 27th, 2002, 7:20 pm

In David Solomon's last book, he tells the story of Steve Draun's wife, Laura, who had learned to faro shuffle from her father. David planned to do the card on the seat trick for her. He handed her the deck and asked her to shuffle. Following a perfect faro, she looked up and informed him that one card was missing. Never underestimate ...

Richard Kaufman · Postby **Richard Kaufman** » June 27th, 2002, 8:15 pm

Has anyone ever seen a woman whose sleight of hand abilities equal the top men in our field?
No.
One could speculate why that is, but I'll leave that to you ...

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 27th, 2002, 8:41 pm

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Has anyone ever seen a woman whose sleight of hand abilities equal the top men in our field?
No.
One could speculate why that is, but I'll leave that to you ...

Well us women are usally dumb, have small hands and no dedication. Our hands are best suited for cooking, cleaning and giving hand jobs.

The only reason the Magic Circle let us in was to help clean the place. Still - gotta love us eh?

Donna.

Steve Bryant · Postby **Steve Bryant** » June 27th, 2002, 8:53 pm

It could be that old fear of being burned at the stake.

Richard Kaufman · Postby **Richard Kaufman** » June 27th, 2002, 9:18 pm

Donna,
I did not write that there are no good female magicians. There are many now and have been in the past. My comment was regarding female sleight of hand artists equaling the top men: like Vernon, or Jennings, or Dingle.
There are female sleight of hand artists, but they are not of that caliber. I'm trying to get a discussion started as to why that is so.

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » June 27th, 2002, 9:43 pm

Yep, it is Alba... she has the chops with cards that many dudes do not...

However, depends on the audience. Some of us, with mediocre chops, are viewed by our audiences as the greatest sleight-of-hand dudes in the world...

It is based on "what you have seen" -- had you not seen Vernon, Diaconis, Freeman, et al, anybody a notch above the 21 card trick would be amazing.

There are also those with knowledge that transcends physical skill. I note a session at Stanford for other professors, that Diaconis combined slight-of-hand with cunning, guile and math, enequalled by anyone else on the planet, Alex Elmsley maybe...

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 1:07 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:

It is based on "what you have seen" -- had you not seen Vernon, Diaconis, Freeman, et al, anybody a notch above the 21 card trick would be amazing.

Hi PB. Nice to see you again! This is a good point you make. I'd never heard of Steve Forte until I caught him by accident on a TV special here in the UK, and he totally blew me away! I guess there will be others who prefer to be out of the public eye, also with amazing chops, who we may never know of. It's the gunfighter syndrome. No matter how good you are, there's always some dude better.

It's nice to know that there are some ladies out there to keep the rest on their toes. More power to them!

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » June 28th, 2002, 7:55 am

Forte is no slouch... I know a guy in Las Vegas that is beyond incredible, but he spent a great deal of time on the wrong side (I watched him run up a cooler and deal seconds at a blackjack table in a casino--just for laughs for me) and sessioned with him.

He now teaches casino managers how to catch crooked dealers.

Nobody, hardly (well Johnny Thompson knows him well) has ever heard of him--which is what he prefers...

There are more like him. I met a hustler in NY once that could run up cards while shuffling that had no "magic look" and no one could tell.

stay tooned... :cool:

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 8:38 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Forte is no slouch... I know a guy in Las Vegas that is beyond incredible, but he spent a great deal of time on the wrong side (I watched him run up a cooler and deal seconds at a blackjack table in a casino--just for laughs for me) and sessioned with him.

He now teaches casino managers how to catch crooked dealers.

Nobody, hardly (well Johnny Thompson knows him well) has ever heard of him--which is what he prefers...

There are more like him. I met a hustler in NY once that could run up cards while shuffling that had no "magic look" and no one could tell.

stay tooned... :cool:

Gulp! That's scary. :eek:
My cartoon imagination has just drawn a picture of Ricky Jay in drag running up cards at the Golden Nugget. Guess I shouldn't have ate that cheese last night. :D

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 1:49 pm

Pete, re your post about "the man no one knows". I believe it. I've know the top card men - and I've known a few of those who make their living at the tables (more than just a living).

No comparison - when your living depends on it - maybe your life - you have to be the best.

And the methods, re seconds, bottoms, etc. are very different.

Magician versus gambler always a very interesting discussion.

Bob Coyne · Postby **Bob Coyne** » June 28th, 2002, 2:17 pm

And the methods, re seconds, bottoms, etc. are very different.

I'm very curious about this statement. I guess you're saying that magicians like Richard Turner, Simon Lovell, Martin Nash, Alan Ackerman, Tony Giorgio, etc are using magician methods. What then are the gambler methods? Are they written up anywhere?

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 3:05 pm

Bob, it's hard to find gambler's methods in print because they usually don't publish.

I do remember years ago a gentleman named, Artanis, (Sinatra backwards) showed up at some SAM meetings in NY and demonstrated some really fantastic things. He did a "punch deal" that was really great to see (well, you really did not see it)

He also put out a 78 RPM record with some photos demonstrating seconds and bottoms.

When magicians use a second deal usually it's to count down and find a selected card at a chosen number.

It's another story to use it to deal yourself a winning hand in a real game - not a gambling demo.

BTW, a name that's rarely mentioned, who really was up there was John Scarne. WOW!

I did not mean to sound like the magicians you mentioned were not at the top of their game. They are terrific.

Just that it's a little different in a real game.

And I just thought of something that might be of interest - I m,ight have mentioned it in another topic.

Slydini showed me what may well be one of the best second deals - he did it right at his table at home - showed me what he did - then did it again. JUST PLAIN AMAZING!

And NO, I don't believe he ever published it.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 3:15 pm

Originally posted by Joe DeStefano:

And the methods, re seconds, bottoms, etc. are very different.

Magician versus gambler always a very interesting discussion.

I guess that the magician has the luxury of not only running the show, but patter and audience participation to create appropriate offbeats for his chops. I guess the main problem for the gambler is a question of shade.

This intrigues me. I'd be very interest to hear the views of anyone who has sat in serious card games. Did you feel 'exposed'?

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 3:32 pm

Bob, you started me digging through piles of books I haven't touched in 5 decades.

I found one that I thought was very interesting at the time - "CARD CHEATS - HOW THEY OPERATE".

Soft cover - 76 pages - all about cheating - $1.50.

The author, Floyd Moss. I don't know if he was a magician but I saw him a couple of times at USO clubs demonstrating cheating methods - not exposing. HE WAS GREAT! No fast or "funny-looking" moves.

I have no idea if it's available anywhere but if "gambling/cheating" interests you, you may enjoy reading it - if you can find it.

Bob Coyne · Postby **Bob Coyne** » June 28th, 2002, 4:27 pm

Thanks, Joe, for elaborating... I think a distinction should be made between different methods and different presentation/shade/context/misdirection. You mention magicians *using* a second deal to count down to a chosen card etc. That's certainly a different use than a gambler would use it, but the method/technique (e.g. push-off, strike, etc) could be the same. And though gamblers don't usually publish, magicians have often published gambling moves. Well, anyway, I'm sure there are some unpublished gambling techniques for seconds and bottoms, and I'd sure like to know them!

One book Phantom at the Card table describes Walter Scott and mentions his second deal. I think I remember reading somewhere recently that the magician Gazzo learned the technique from him and will publish it someday. I'm eagerly awaiting that.

Interesting that you mentioned Scarne. He was amazing. When I was a kid, I saw him on TV a few times (in the early 70's) and that got me hooked on sleight of hand. Did you ever see him perform live? Karl Fulves sprinkles some of Scarnes stuff in his subscription publications. It would be nice if there were a full book on Scarne's magic.

Larry Horayne · Postby **Larry Horayne** » June 28th, 2002, 6:26 pm

I believe ladies who perform good magic was the topic -- how about that Chen chick?

Who mentioned Scarne??? We were good friends--he was BIGGER than life...

Richard Kaufman · Postby **Richard Kaufman** » June 28th, 2002, 6:35 pm

The Slydini Second Deal (or, should I say, the one he showed me) was published in either the first or second New York Symposium book. This later turned out to be the same method that Dr. William Elliott had published decades earlier, i.e., the left thumb pulls the top card to the LEFT, rather than spreading it to the right.

Gary · Postby **Gary** » June 28th, 2002, 6:48 pm

Joe,

Funny you would mention this book. I just bought the Moss book for $12.00 on ebay last week. I have seen this at one time going for over $100.00.......can you remember any specific details about his demo?

Gary

Gary · Postby **Gary** » June 28th, 2002, 6:55 pm

Joe,

The Artanis record was only the bottom deal, no second deal. Great deal by the way.

Gary

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » June 28th, 2002, 7:12 pm

My friend the real card cheat... happened to have a couple of my magic friends with us... and they asked to see his bottom deal.

They didn't think too much of it and asked him why they could see it.

He said, "You can see it but it is totally invisible to the TV Cameras over the tables. And if I was dealing you would be my partner and winning, so I should worry you can see it?"

Another thing he showed me was a blackjack glimpse. In magic the magician wants to see the card. In gambling the dealer wants his playing partner to see the card so he can signal to hit or not.

He also told me he felt magicians that do "so called gambling moves" have one failing. They are usually not crooks, they are not likely to steal. If you are playing to win by cheating that is stealing and takes big B***S."

Another thing he said, most magicians don't even know how to gamble, don't know the odds, don't know the games.

Back to the thread. Juliana Chen is a GREAT card MANIPULATOR but not a card trick doer.

Larry Horayne · Postby **Larry Horayne** » June 28th, 2002, 8:19 pm

But Pete, the question was 'which ladies do the rest of you consider to be highly skilled with a deck of cards?'

Chen IS highly skilled with a deck of cards, isn't she?

What's the Artanis Deal -- Artanis is Sinatra spelled Erdnase like. BTW, if you dig Sinatra, join me on my DATE WITH SINATRA radio show. This week we talke about Dean Martin's magical expertise.
www.SandySinger.com

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 8:31 pm

Bob, do you have the Phantom of the Card Table" in book form?

What I have is a manuscript about 30 pages stapled together. Supposedly, in the 30s it sold for $50 - $100.

I got mine from Jim Herpick, who was the demonstrator at Tannen's when I first got started.

Interesting stuff - methods and stories.

Yes, I did see Scarne in person, close-up. When I was about 18 the company I worked for was in the same building where Scarne's nephew, or cousin worked. You know I begged for an introduction. I remember the first words of advice from the man I consider to be the best I ever saw, with cards. "Hit em fast - and hit em hard".

From that moment on, I decided to not do any other type of magic. Just cards - and usually with a gambling theme.

Bob, I think there is a short demo of Scarne on film. If I find it I'll let you know.

Thanks for listening.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 28th, 2002, 8:38 pm

Gary, I took notes of the Floyd Moss gambling demonstrations.

Very similar to John Scarne. False deals, shuffles, cuts, Poker hands - all fantastic. He challenged the audience head on.

Haven't heard anything about him since then. I also think he made a film - but I have not seen it and I don't know if it's available.

Larry Horayne · Postby **Larry Horayne** » June 28th, 2002, 9:04 pm

Scarne made a training film for the army -- exposed everything, so the unaware kids wouldn't get taken in a 'friendly' barracks game.

Luis · Postby **Luis** » June 28th, 2002, 10:51 pm

I have asked this already in another thread, but no one answered.
Did anyone see Scarne cutting to the aces from a borrowed deck?
It is true that he fooled the best crooked gamblers when he was only 19?

I would appreciate any information.

Luis

Larry Horayne · Postby **Larry Horayne** » June 29th, 2002, 4:35 am

<<Did anyone see Scarne cutting to the aces from a borrowed deck?>>

Paul Newman did this in The Sting, but those were John Scarne's hands in the close-ups.

www.SandySinger.com
A DATR WITH SINATRA

Bob Coyne · Postby **Bob Coyne** » June 29th, 2002, 5:04 am

Joe, I have a very short video of Scarne doing some gambling stuff...probably the same one Sandy mentions. It's transfered from old b&w film and low picture quality, but great to see nonetheless. I think there might be a short cups and balls sequence on it too. What I really wish I had were his appearances on TV shows in the 70's (I remember seeing him on the Mike Douglas show a couple times) and especially his Schaeffer beer commercial. He did a fantastic color change on that commercial and have been unsuccesful finding anyone who remembers or knows the method.

One time on TV I saw him take a shuffled deck and then cull the aces in a riffle shuffle and then produce them (maybe by cutting...I don't remember) The riffle shuffle cull is described in one of Karl Fulves manuscripts.

I also saw him do Rub-a-dub-dub where the vanished card was face up. Try doing that with the standard method! :) Again...I've never seen any writeup of his method.

Regarding the Phantom at the Card Table, I have a Gamblers Book Club reprint. It's a very small (3x5 inches, 69 pages) comb-binding booklet.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 29th, 2002, 5:21 am

Bob, there are so many "bits and pieces" of Scarne on TV - too bad no one ever compiled them into great video. Unfortunately, no video or VCR at the time. He appeared many times on the Jack Parr show - I wonder if copies might be available from the station.

Have you read "The Amazing World of John Scarne"?

What an interesting man - and life.

Frank Yuen · Postby **Frank Yuen** » June 29th, 2002, 5:43 am

I also saw him do Rub-a-dub-dub where the vanished card was face up. Try doing that with the standard method! Again...I've never seen any writeup of his method.

Not sure if the Scarne method is in print but I have read a method in print somewhere. My memory fails me but I think it was by Jay Sankey in one of the Symposium books or Spectacle.

Frank Yuen

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 29th, 2002, 6:10 am

Re: Scarne's Rub A Dub - Maybe??? He did some amazing hole card switches - would demonstrate with cards face up - looked like real magic.

BTW, Jack Miller used to put a card face up on the table - wave his hand over it and it changed. The changed card was gone. He used his own "Jack Miller Holdout" - Tannen used to sell it but only Jack mastered it to perfection.

Bob Coyne · Postby **Bob Coyne** » June 29th, 2002, 6:16 am

Joe, I've read his autobiography "the Odds against me". I think it's just an updated version of "The Amazing World of John Scarne". Great stories in there! You're lucky to have met him.

Frank, thanks for the lead on the face-up rub-a-dub-dub.

Mike Powers · Postby **Mike Powers** » June 29th, 2002, 6:50 am

How did this thread mutate from being about women who are good with cards to men who have great gambling technique? Perhaps these messages should be put under a different title.

BTW - my wife, Maria Schwieter, is very good with cards. She won the close up contest at Abbott's Close Up last year and was a featured performer at the MagiFest this year. She doesn't have a good second deal, though.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 29th, 2002, 7:45 am

Joe said:

Bob, I think there is a short demo of Scarne on film. If I find it I'll let you know.

Joe, I have the Scarne film in my library. Its for an 8mm movie projector, and I don't even have one anymore. It was put out by Castle Films. I'd love to get it transferred to a DVD, but don't know if it's even possible.
Regarding lady magicians... Mary Mowder from Sacramento is very fine indeed with a deck of cards. She will be at San Diego next week by the way. She takes the deck, tosses it behind her back over her shoulder, and it splits into two halves. She catches one half in each hand and makes two one handed fans. She does a lot of flourishy stuff like the Sybil Cut, the Leno Cut, etc.

Brian Marks · Postby **Brian Marks** » June 29th, 2002, 8:19 am

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Has anyone ever seen a woman whose sleight of hand abilities equal the top men in our field?
No.
One could speculate why that is, but I'll leave that to you ...

Belinda Sinclair, a New York professional magician who performs at Monday Night Magic. She is just as good if not better at sleight of hand magic as any male magician.

Luis · Postby **Luis** » June 29th, 2002, 8:33 am

Originally posted by Dennis Loomis:
Joe said:

Bob, I think there is a short demo of Scarne on film. If I find it I'll let you know.

Joe, I have the Scarne film in my library. Its for an 8mm movie projector, and I don't even have one anymore. It was put out by Castle Films.

A VHS version of this film "Expos of Sleight of Hand" by John Scarne, can be obtained at
http://home.earthlink.net/~waltdonohue/

Excerpts from his autobiograpy "The Amazing World of John Scarne" can be read at:
http://scarne.freeservers.com/

How much of it is true, I cannot tell.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 29th, 2002, 8:59 am

Brenda Saxon, of Bob Brown and Brenda also is an excellent card worker. She also juggles and rides a unicycle.