Debate

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Mr. Stickley
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Re: Debate

Postby Mr. Stickley » June 6th, 2002, 11:57 am

Crediting unkown "creators" of effects in fron tof laymen!? Um... I am hoping this post is a joke? Why don't magicians get it? Why don't we as a community follow the rules and examples of show-biz @ large? Do you see actors giving monologues crediting their writers? As someone mentioned earlier, do you see Harrison Ford in Star Wars saying.. "and George Lucas made this cool spaceship I am flying..." on film!? Get a clue! Create a character. Your an actor playing the part of a magician (sure go debate that one for awhile - i get a kick out of people attmepting to give examples of "succesful" entertainers with no character). But I degress... Go ahead... Continue putting audiences to sleep everynight...

Mr. Stickley

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2002, 12:11 pm

I agree this thread has digressed. Remember when it was about performing uncredited back-engineered effects?

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2002, 12:26 pm

If the movie analogy works for you, OK.

Since movies are not a live performance given to the nuance of a breathing audience in the moment of performance, I dismiss the comparison for my own purposes. Let alone the fact that Harrison Ford has been cotracted by Lucas to present Lucas's creation.

I choose instead to look toward music which has more of a give and take with the audience, simular to that in magic. Do musicians credit their writers? They do when they feel moved by the need to address, thank, or endorse the creativity of that person, famous or otherwise.

Not every song. Not every verse. But enough to let you know they respect those on whose shoulders they are standing. Enough to let you, should you be so inspired, to search out the work of that artist.

I'm saddened to think that so many magicians don't see the grace which such an act imparts.

Tom Cutts
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Pete Biro
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Re: Debate

Postby Pete Biro » June 6th, 2002, 12:26 pm

We need a credit rating????

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:eek: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :genii:
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Joe M. Turner
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Re: Debate

Postby Joe M. Turner » June 6th, 2002, 12:47 pm

Some of the singers I respect most have, in live performance, explained why a particular composer's work was meaningful to them before singing a number. Other times, the introduction of a song may be historical in nature. Many times these composers are practically unknown to the general public, or at least today's general public.

Some magic performances are like concerts, while others are like dramatic plays. Concerts, while having a meaningful structure and planned content, display more of the personality of the performer. A play is far more rigidly structured... sure, you feel how the audience is responding and adjust, but you don't directly address them in the character of "you."

When magic is in the style of a play, spoken credits are likely to be silly. But when magic is presented in the form of a concert, using a credit by way of introduction or discussion of a wonderful magical sequence seems not only dignified, but respectful of our art and its creative minds.

I would not presume to write an introduction for your performance... but mentioning the creative effort behind the magic seems like an awfully good element to consider as you put together scripts that help you lead your audience through your own show. I think a little bit of that heightens an audience's respect of magic by framing magic as an art that has a history worthy of note.

Is a spoken tribute to Marlo the right thing to give before pulling out the Stratospheres at little Timmy's party? Maybe not. But for adults, before presenting a routine with another tired and contrived mention of Harry Houdini, maybe you'll find a good opportunity to share with your audience the idea that the art of magic has a depth that they probably didn't anticipate.

Need I mention that by heightening an audience's appreciation of the art, you also enhance their perception of you as a a talented and knowledgable artist?

Mr. Stickley
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Re: Debate

Postby Mr. Stickley » June 6th, 2002, 1:14 pm

So...

Your suggesting a magic performance is more like a concert as opposed to say a broadway show? Riggght.

I agree with Biro... zzzzzzzzzz...

Mr. Stickley

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2002, 1:20 pm

Have any of you ever heard of David Copperfield giving a credit to Jim Steinmeyer during his show? To give a credit during a performance is the most insane thing I have ever heard of. If you are lecturing to magicians, fine. However, to do such a thing during a performance for lay people is crazy, because a lay person will not take it as a credit. They will take it as name-dropping.

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Debate

Postby Dustin Stinett » June 6th, 2002, 1:20 pm

Originally posted by Joe M. Turner:
…but mentioning the creative effort behind the magic seems like an awfully good element to consider as you put together scripts that help you lead your audience through your own show. I think a little bit of that heightens an audience's respect of magic by framing magic as an art that has a history worthy of note.

Need I mention that by heightening an audience's appreciation of the art, you also enhance their perception of you as a talented and knowledgeable artist?
Ricky Jay did exactly this in 52 Assistants prior to his Fusillade (multiple selection/discovery) and Everywhere and Nowhere performances. He spoke of Malini and Hofzinser respectively - and respectfully. It can be done, but like every aspect of performance - it requires some thought. I don't recall anyone sleeping through Ricky Jay's performances.

Dustin

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2002, 1:56 pm

Allow me to interrupt here for a minute,
just to turn off the automatic e-mails...

...click......

Thank You

:D

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2002, 1:56 pm

Crediting in the course of patter works for Ricky Jay. It's what he does. It wouldn't have worked for Cardini. Nor in the show I was in, which was structured start-to-finish as a time-travel demonstration. It's situational, kids. Ruben nailed it. On with life....

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2002, 2:02 pm

I did have some initial reservations, but I do agree with Dustin and with Tom; intelligently crediting the folks whose shoulders you are standing on can be done entertainingly and respectfully. And, done well, it may endear you to your audience.

This thread sent me scurrying to look over the scripts of my performing repertoire, past and current.

In addition to the crediting Gene Anderson and Doug Henning that I mentioned earlier, I've credited the late Dell O' Dell and also Harry Blackstone.

Now, Dell O' Dell is unknown today except among magicians. Still, I mentioned her in conjunction with a rhyming patter routine. It was a springboard into a little motivation talk for elementary and middle school audiences. Basically, I was trying to impress on the young ladies that they can take up ANY profession they wish. Gender stereotypes were more prevalent when I put this together some 15 years ago. The motivational rap was very well received by the educators. When they hire programs, they're always trying to keep on eye on what may be educational or uplifting as well as entertaining. I'm confident that this "rap" led to a lot of repeat bookings.

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Joe M. Turner
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Re: Debate

Postby Joe M. Turner » June 6th, 2002, 2:45 pm

Originally posted by Mr. Stickley:
So...

Your suggesting a magic performance is more like a concert as opposed to say a broadway show? Riggght.

I agree with Biro... zzzzzzzzzz...

Mr. Stickley
What I'm suggesting is that magic performances vary in style and structure, and that some are less like Broadway shows and more like scripted concerts. There is flexibility to veer a bit from the script in a concert, but you would never try that in a non-improv theatrical event.

In either setting, if the character interacting with the audience has the need to introduce what is about to happen, some historical or crediting notes may provide suitable material for that part of the script. Not in every situation, but the idea is that it works well for some characters in some situations. Not all patter has to be "wacky" or "zany" or "action-packed." For some performers, the opportunity to convey respect for the art may be a good way to further define your character as an informed and knowledgeable artist. To some people, that's boring. To other people, that's charming.

If you disagree, fair enough. Thank God there still exist some differences between magical performers.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Debate

Postby Tom Stone » June 6th, 2002, 4:32 pm

Originally posted by Mr. Stickley:
Crediting unkown "creators" of effects in fron tof laymen!? Um... I am hoping this post is a joke?
In 1998 when I and my friend Peter Rosengren did our close-up show "Close up - A tiny gigantic show", we put a pamphlet on each chair before we let the audience in. The pamphlet contained the credits for every effect that was performed in the show.

Not only did the spectators find it interesting, it also had another positive effect:
The toughest and nastiest theatre critic in the area came to see us, and fortunately she liked what she saw. The positive side effect was that the lyrical review became twice the usual length because of that little pamphlet.

That in turn resulted in that the newspaper made a full page article about us a few days later.

So, crediting can be a very positive thing. :)

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2002, 5:26 pm

Tom, I think that's admirable. How did you deal with effects that were supposed to be surprises? By using cryptic titles that would only be understood in retrospect?

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Joe M. Turner
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Re: Debate

Postby Joe M. Turner » June 6th, 2002, 6:57 pm

Very interesting. In fact, by putting together a program with credits, you made your show even more like traditional live theatre.

JMT

Brian Marks
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Re: Debate

Postby Brian Marks » June 6th, 2002, 9:10 pm

The most original thing about my act is me and I am the only important part of my act. I am not focused on original material being stolen because if every magician started doing the trick as will often be the case if its a good trick, my act will go on. My act will outlive the effect if I should decide to drop it. I am entertaining, the trick is the vehicle.

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Pete Biro
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Re: Debate

Postby Pete Biro » June 6th, 2002, 9:47 pm

George Will (sp) had a funny on air commentary about sponsors and crediting.

BRIEFLY....

Bobby Bonds steps into the Bank of America batters box, grips his Buick bat, tugs on his Visa hat, swings and hits the UNOCAL ball against the Wheaties right field fence, he runs to the GE first base, heads for the Verizon second base, slides on the Lawn Boy dirt, the ball comes in and the Tide second baseman catches the ball and misses the Enron tag........ you get the idea....

Too bad Steven Youell missed THIS MESSAGE! :D :rolleyes: :D
Stay tooned.

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Joe M. Turner
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Re: Debate

Postby Joe M. Turner » June 7th, 2002, 4:20 am

I thought you were asleep... :)

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 7th, 2002, 11:29 am

Um, Pete...

When Bobby Bonds was playing there was no Enron nor Verison. I think Visa hadn't even started, though I could be wrong about that.

D'oh!

Tom

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Tom Stone
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Re: Debate

Postby Tom Stone » June 7th, 2002, 11:35 am

Originally posted by Ralph Bonheim:
How did you deal with effects that were supposed to be surprises? By using cryptic titles that would only be understood in retrospect?
Well, the original titles are often cryptic enough (Matrix, Triumph. etc).
And even though the credits say that "Jardine Ellis' Glass Production" will be performed, the production still comes as a surprise.

Ian Kendall
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Re: Debate

Postby Ian Kendall » June 8th, 2002, 3:37 am

Winging way back to the topic, a small tale.

A few years ago I was at a MNM show in London. One of the performers on the bill was backstage at the end of the show, and was asked about one of his effects (not by me). His reply was 'it's buried in a very old book'. Since I had no reason to disbelieve him, I worked out a method that could not possibly be in an old book.

A week or so later I saw him in Davenport's and asked him about the effect again. I asked if it was indeed in an old book, or if it was his and he had been lying. He confirmed that it was his. I explained that on the original information I had developed a routine. His answer was that he did not want me to perform it,and not in a nice way. However, I respected his request and went on my way.

After a while I realised that I had a 'modus operandi', if you will, that could be applied to several other effects. At Blackpool I approached the person and started to explain, intending to ask if he minded me using my idea. Before I had finished my first sentence he turned around and shouted at me 'Look, I don't want you to do it, ok?'.

I found this a wee bit insulting, as he did not even wait to hear what had to say, and shouting at people in public is not exactly polite...

At this point I got angry, and seriously considered publishing just to piss him off. I had tried to do right by him and asked him at every step of the way. Had he not lied in the first place I would never have worked out a method. I had been respectful to him at all times, and yet he had treated me with contempt and bad manners.

I never did publish, and have nearly forgotten about the method. However, I still feel I owe nothing at all to him. I have no respect for him as a person, which saddens me as I had known him for several years prior to this episode.

I don't regret asking him. I may have got bitten, but I still think it was the correct thing to do. I'm just glad my morals are stronger than my temper.

Take care, Ian

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Pete Biro
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Re: Debate

Postby Pete Biro » June 8th, 2002, 9:24 am

Barry, Bobby... who cares... :eek:
Stay tooned.

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 9th, 2002, 1:47 am

Seems you and I. We keep posting about it. :D

Tom

Andrew Martin Portala
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Re: Debate

Postby Andrew Martin Portala » June 9th, 2002, 6:49 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dennis Loomis:
[QB]To Pete Biro,

How about Professor's Nightmare? Hen Fetsch created this in the late 50's, I believe, and sold the manufacturing rights to Gene Gordon. Gene Gordon sold them at his shop, at conventions, and through the mail. Today, many dealers manufacture the thing by just cutting up a few cents worth of rope and sticking it in an envelope along with a one page instruction sheet.


Denny,
The Professor's nightmare was not invented by Hen Fetsch.
It was Paul Young from Virginia or maybe Bob Carver who said he invented the trick at the same time. However, Gene Gordon did give him credit. Hen Fetsch did come up with Quadropelets which had a small part to do with it.
For more info. Gene Gordon's magical legacy, pages 218 and 219

Andrew Martin

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Debate

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 9th, 2002, 6:49 pm

The general understanding is that Bob Carver invented "The Professor's Nightmare" and Al Cohen of Washington DC had a lot to do with the handling with which we are all familiar.
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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 9th, 2002, 6:54 pm

Thanks for correcting me, guys. I've had this misunderstanding for a long time. Glad to finally have it right.

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 9th, 2002, 9:30 pm

This is interesting. Here is a case where a magician (Denny Loomis) THOUGHT he knew the correct credits to a well known trick. I believe that if Denny had ever published an effect based on Professor's Nightmare, and had used the credits that he BELIEVED were correct, he would have been flamed alive for not giving a correct credit, and accused of ripping off the effect.

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 10th, 2002, 5:04 pm

David,

Not quite sure what the point of your conjecture is, but I'd like to believe that if I were to publish a piece with credits, I'd check them first.

I didn't do that for the Genii Forum, and probably should have. However, the original creator of the Professor's Nightmare was tangential to my point. My question was, and still is, how did the Professor's Nightmare become part of magic's public domain?

The process seems to be, if enough people rip off an effect, then it becomes okay for everyone to do so. That's not right, or fair.

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 10th, 2002, 10:29 pm

I just came back from the Oz Magic Convention where an international guest stole a great bit (not the effect, just some of the method) and alot of the jokes from the Saturday night show and performed it for the same crowd on Sunday night.

I have never wanted to boo another performer in my life until that moment

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Re: Debate

Postby Guest » June 11th, 2002, 11:33 am

With all respect, it is the lack of interest, the need to lampoon, and the lack of accuracy in crediting that I believe leads to the "Public Domain?" syndrome. Lets face it, magicians as a visible group often show little respect for intillectual property. Until that changes the legal world will have little interest in taking up the cause.

When one asks around and gets several contrasting answers to the origin of a routine, it is too easy, and too often, that the cry of "Public Domain" is heard. Finding the truth is not easy. Admiting you were wrong is not easy. Both are necessary and valiant ways of the artist.

Yes, even the original topic, reverse engineering an original effect that was personally shown to you, but not taught, shows disrespect for the originator and his ideas. It implies that no permission was asked for to even toy with the kind performer's original idea. And why would it not occur to ask at the moment, "That is a keen idea, may I toy around with it and see where it takes me?".

Why? Because the fear of the answer being "No!" By not asking, one conveniently avoids definitively knowing what they instinctively know to be likely. The performer wants to keep the routine original to himself.

Public domain is, of course, a legal matter and is clearly spelled out in most cases. There is, however, room for grey in such avenues as not enforcing your copyright. There are also pitfalls as to just what is copyrightable.

That is the level of legal, ie just how much can you take from others. The level of ethics on the other hand is an embodiment of how much respect you bring to the table when you "share" with other performers...and they with you.

Unfortunately, ethics are never really even considered until one has something uniquely his own to be ethical about. By then it may well be too late.

Tom Cutts
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Jim Morton
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Re: Debate

Postby Jim Morton » June 11th, 2002, 12:55 pm

Originally posted by Nicholas J. Johnson:
I just came back from the Oz Magic Convention where an international guest stole a great bit (not the effect, just some of the method) and alot of the jokes from the Saturday night show and performed it for the same crowd on Sunday night.
Are you sure that the guy on Sunday night was the thief and not the other way around? I sincerely doubt that either of these guys was doing stuff in a formal show that he worked on only that day. It's more likely that the two people had exchanged ideas at some earlier date.

Just a thought.

Jim

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Brian Morton
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Re: Debate

Postby Brian Morton » June 11th, 2002, 8:04 pm

Joe M. Turner writes:
What I'm suggesting is that magic performances vary in style and structure, and that some are less like Broadway shows and more like scripted concerts. There is flexibility to veer a bit from the script in a concert, but you would never try that in a non-improv theatrical event.
To get back to an earlier point of this thread -- I agree with Joe Turner in that some shows are like concerts -- David Copperfield and many acts that use music to dance around large boxes (thankfully DC does not do this as much any more) do this -- and there are magic shows like theatre. Penn and Teller come to mind, as does Lance Burton's show in Vegas.

The night I auditioned for the Magic Castle, September 9th, 1996 (you'd remember too if you saw this show), the Palace was jammed on a Monday night. Why? Because the bill was Mike Caveney, Tina Lenert and John Gaughan demonstrating Antonio Diavolo. And on every chair of the room was a little program, black on parchment-style paper, with a note about each performer and their act. It was delightful, and it complemented the theatre that we saw on stage that night.

I have here Jamy Ian Swiss' program from his "Honest Liar" show that he performed for two weeks during the New York Fringe Festival at the Kraine Theatre in Greenwich Village two years ago. It had a list of "set pieces," similar to the way scenes are listed during a play. And although I can't see the back of it due to the way I have it displayed, if I recall correctly it lists the seminal magicians who created either the effects or the principles he used in the tricks during the show as part of the thanks.

I found this, like the Parlour program in '96, incredibly classy, a way to inform the audience of both the seriousness, the depth and the history of the art -- and it lets you sit back with two years gone by and remember a great show.

So crediting can be done in live shows, like Tom Stone has mentioned, and often it adds something to the performance for the spectator.

brian :cool:


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