Chris Bliss Diss

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 18th, 2006, 9:20 am

Here's the thing I don't understand, and forgive me if this was covered in this extensive thread.

Chris Bliss did a 3-ball routine set to the Beatles song. Jason Garfield, as a parody/diss/whatever, performed a 5-ball routine to the same song.

What exactly is Jason's point? I'm not sarcastically saying what he did was pointless, I'm asking: what specifically was he trying to prove? I could understand it if he did Chris's routine, but with 5 balls. But to do a completely different routine with 5 balls to the same song, what does that prove? That Jason Garfield can juggle 5 balls? Does Garfield think he's better than Bliss because he did a 5-ball routine while Bliss did a 3-ball routine? I just don't get what he's trying to demonstrate.

By analogy, suppose someone releases a video of themselves doing "Threefly" set to "Ackee 1 2 3" by The English Beat. Now I release a video of myself doing the David Roth four-coins across routine (with a shell) to the same song. What would I have proved? They're completely different routines.

Instead suppose I released a video of myself doing the same Threefly routine but using jumbo coins. This would make a fairly strong claim that I am "better" in the strict technical sense, because I've duplicated the same routine with greater difficulty. But to do a completely different routine doesn't seem to prove anything.

This is why Jason's video left me cold, and I suspect why many other people feel the same way. The point of Chris's routine was not the difficulty -- it was how the juggling and song combined to make you feel. Jason's routine had none of that for me. His routine only made sense as a diss if you completely discount any expressive elements of juggling and view it as a purely technical exercise. And even then, he failed to provide a direct comparison of skill by performing a different routine.

That's what I don't get.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 18th, 2006, 9:35 am

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:
Here's the thing I don't understand, and forgive me if this was covered in this extensive thread.

Chris Bliss did a 3-ball routine set to the Beatles song. Jason Garfield, as a parody/diss/whatever, performed a 5-ball routine to the same song.

What exactly is Jason's point? I'm not sarcastically saying what he did was pointless, I'm asking: what specifically was he trying to prove? I could understand it if he did Chris's routine, but with 5 balls. But to do a completely different routine with 5 balls to the same song, what does that prove? That Jason Garfield can juggle 5 balls? Does Garfield think he's better than Bliss because he did a 5-ball routine while Bliss did a 3-ball routine? I just don't get what he's trying to demonstrate.

By analogy, suppose someone releases a video of themselves doing "Threefly" set to "Ackee 1 2 3" by The English Beat. Now I release a video of myself doing the David Roth four-coins across routine (with a shell) to the same song. What would I have proved? They're completely different routines.

Instead suppose I released a video of myself doing the same Threefly routine but using jumbo coins. This would make a fairly strong claim that I am "better" in the strict technical sense, because I've duplicated the same routine with greater difficulty. But to do a completely different routine doesn't seem to prove anything.

This is why Jason's video left me cold, and I suspect why many other people feel the same way. The point of Chris's routine was not the difficulty -- it was how the juggling and song combined to make you feel. Jason's routine had none of that for me. His routine only made sense as a diss if you completely discount any expressive elements of juggling and view it as a purely technical exercise. And even then, he failed to provide a direct comparison of skill by performing a different routine.

That's what I don't get.

And the thread is back. :)

The sole point is, Penn dared him to do it, so he did.

Clearly you aren't a juggler, but Garfield's routine is technically a million miles away from Bliss's. What he does is *much* harder. Talk to any juggler.

The point really was that Penn didn't like the Bliss video, as most jugglers don't, and thought Garflied could copy it, but adding two more balls thus demonstrating his superior chops. He dared him to do it, Garflied repsonded.

Quite simple really.

Your analogy of doing a coin routine subbing dollars for jumbo coins is pretty good.

Mark Collier · Postby **Mark Collier** » May 18th, 2006, 9:43 am

At the risk of reigniting this thread, I will try to explain my understanding of it.

Jason did do the Chris Bliss routine with 5 balls. It was the same tricks in the same sequence. It might be harder to follow because of the different camera edits and angles but it is the same routine. Jason even tried to mimmick what he considers to be the akward body movements of Chris Bliss.

Jason's parody of the Chris Bliss routine is far more technically difficult but didn't retain some of the artistic elements of the original.

Jason Garfield is a technician. He wants to see jugglers perform very difficult moves with perfect technique. He founded the World Juggling Federation and oversees world championship juggling competitions. These competitions are not performances ie: no costumes allowed, no choreography etc. You are penalized if you move your feet unless doing 180's, 360's 720's etc.

His point is: If you like the Chris Bliss video, fine. Just don't confuse it with what he considers excellent juggling.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 18th, 2006, 3:03 pm

Originally posted by Mark Collier:
... my understanding of [Garfields point is that] ... if you like the Chris Bliss video, fine. Just don't confuse it with what he considers excellent juggling it.
...
Jason's parody of the Chris Bliss routine is far more technically difficult but didn't retain some of the artistic elements of the original.

Jason Garfield is a technician. He wants to see jugglers perform very difficult moves with perfect technique. He founded the World Juggling Federation and oversees world championship juggling competitions. These competitions are not performances ie: no costumes allowed, no choreography etc. You are penalized if you move your feet unless doing 180's, 360's 720's etc.

Mark: Did you see Garfields performance in IV? Was it mostly a technical presentation? Or was it intended to be (and billed as) more of an integrated performance of juggling as art? Just curious to hear your thoughts on the qualities of Garfields performance in IV if you saw it.

Alas, mrgoat, the only one who really seemed to understand what Garfield was all about on this thread, was, IMHO, all over the map when it came to giving us insights into what Garfields Bliss video was really all about. First, it was about Garfield being somewhat irritated with Bliss internet popularity and that Garfield did his video as a dig, but then we were informed that Garfield wasnt at all disgruntled. Next we were told that mrgoats only real interest in the Garfield video was because it was funny and that it wasnt intended to showcase Garfield as a better juggler, but then that Garfield's only point was that Bliss performance was easy and that Garfield chose to technically mock it by increasing the difficulty and that the video demonstrated Garfields superior chops. Later we were told that it wasnt about the number of balls, but was really about the style. Then we were told that laypeople (ie people that do not know what they are looking at and are unqualified to comment) would enjoy the Bliss video, but later that people didnt need to be told Garfield is technically superior. Even later we were told the real point of the Garfield video was as a parody, and that mrgoat found it funny that a juggler took a popular 3 ball routine and did it with 5 balls. And now weve been told that the sole point is, Penn dared Garfield to do the video, and that its quite simple really. [Hopefully goaty will stay true to his word and ignore this post, because Im not sure hes capable of (a) reconciling the contradictions and (b) responding on point to criticism of the logic of his expression.]

Your post got my attention because you seem to have some definite opinions on Garfields style and performance goals, and one of them seems like it may be that Garfield is not be so much an artist as he is a technician (or at least that seems to be his focus nowadays). That opinion, if true, would fly in the face of some of goats claims and opinions, but more importantly, Im curious to know if your opinion was formed to some degree after seeing Garfield work in IV. If thats the case, then in certain respects your opinion would seem more relevant than, for example, my opinion, since you recently witnessed a Garfield performance, and from the tone of your post, I dont sense that your comments were driven by any hidden agenda or predisposition.

Finally (and in fairness to the goat), by characterizing the Garfield video as a parody, it sounds like you agree with goat that Garfields video was funny (cause thats what makes it would have to be if it was a parody). Like at least one or two other folks on this thread, I didnt get the humor of the video. Goat never really explained why using 5 balls instead of 3, in the manner of presentation that Garfield chose, was so funny; so I thought youd be a good person to ask, for the same reasons as those given above.

Clay

Mark Collier · Postby **Mark Collier** » May 18th, 2006, 3:50 pm

Clay,
In IV, Jason didn't really do a solo routine. He joked around with Vova Galchenko but didn't do that much juggling himself and wasn't on stage very long.

If you want to get a better understanding of Jason Garfield, spend some time on his website (jasongarfield.com). Look through the timeline he put together of his juggling career.

I've seen Jason perform several times but have never seen him do a full show and don't know how he would play for an audience of laymen. His stage persona when performing for jugglers is a bit bitter and angry. He feels he's been ripped off and has very little tolerance for most 'commercial' jugglers. He hates to see jugglers 'lie' to audiences i.e.: "What I am about to attempt is very dangerous and difficult" when it's not.

Lay audiences don't have the appreciation for technical juggling that Jason would like. Jugglers would rather see 7 clubs or 5 club backcrosses where laymen would say," But can you juggle a chainsaw and eat an apple?"

Jason once won first place in a juggling competition with a parody act of classical juggling. He did all of the cheesy bows and mugged to the audience to 'Flight of the Bumblebee". He later put out an instructional video on how to win a juggling competition. All he did was talked about how to shuffle your feet and look at the audience and shrug if you drop. It was filled with all kinds of bad advice on costuming etc. and the video ended with showing him winning first place by following all of his bad advice. It is really quite a funny video.

I don't know the whole story of what his motivations for doing the Chris Bliss Diss were. I suspect part of it was to parody a relatively easy routine that was extremely popular and part of it was to educate people and encourage them to appreciate superior juggling technique.

I hope that helps.
Mark

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 19th, 2006, 8:10 am

If Jason Garfield hates jugglers who pretend their routines are harder than they really are, and doesn't like jugglers who enliven their performances with entertaining, artistic presentations, what is he doing hanging with Penn?

Mr. Goat:

Is it really necessary for you to put me down? In that case, I'll pass, thanks.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 19th, 2006, 7:00 pm

Many thanks for the input, Mark.
--Clay

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 21st, 2006, 12:24 pm

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:

Mr. Goat:

Is it really necessary for you to put me down? In that case, I'll pass, thanks.

Pete,

No idea what you are talking about. No part of my post was intended to put you down...

Yours in a confused state

Goaty

PS I certainly didn't intend to put down. Maybe somehow I did, and if that is the case I unreservedly apologise.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 21st, 2006, 11:37 pm

Originally posted by mrgoat:
Clearly you aren't a juggler.

This is what I was referring to. Not a big deal -- it wasn't the worst put down I've had here on the forum. But If the thread were about a script, and I said "Clearly you're not a scriptwriter," I would be putting you down.

I get that Jason's routine is more difficult. I just don't get the point of just doing something more difficult to the same music. It seems to me that this only makes sense if all you think about, when you think about juggling, is how difficult it is.

I don't think that. But then, I'm not a juggler.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 22nd, 2006, 5:03 am

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:

Originally posted by mrgoat:
[b]Clearly you aren't a juggler.
This is what I was referring to. Not a big deal -- it wasn't the worst put down I've had here on the forum. But If the thread were about a script, and I said "Clearly you're not a scriptwriter," I would be putting you down.
[/b]

Are you a juggler?

I cannot see how pointing out something you aren't, is a put down?

I wouldn't be slightly offended if in a thread about script writing I posted saying 'I don't get this' and someone repleied saying 'Clearly you aren't a script writer'. As I am not. I was merely stating a (perceived) fact, not meaning any offence - I assure you.

Damian

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 22nd, 2006, 5:05 am

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:
I get that Jason's routine is more difficult. I just don't get the point of just doing something more difficult to the same music. It seems to me that this only makes sense if all you think about, when you think about juggling, is how difficult it is.

Because it is a parody:

A literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or a work for comic effect or ridicule.

Hope that helps

Damian

David Britland · Postby **David Britland** » May 25th, 2006, 6:34 am

The new Fatboy Slim video featuring Chriss Bliss is now on YouTube.

That Old Pair of Jeans Video

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 25th, 2006, 6:50 am

It'll be interesting to see if Garfield finds it worth his while to create another "parody", this time of the Fatboy Slim video. :sleep:

______________________________________________________
www.conjurenation.com - 'Cards Only' Forums

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » May 25th, 2006, 7:07 am

Whoever said what Bliss does is EASY is nuts.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » May 25th, 2006, 8:08 am

Originally posted by David Britland:
The new Fatboy Slim video featuring Chriss Bliss is now on YouTube.

That Old Pair of Jeans Video

Now that was interesting. Massively interesting.

It was really, really boring...

His juggling seemed goofier than before, and it just was dull. I skipped fwd three times to see if he actually did anything interesting. He didn't. And his 'stiffness' was even worse than with the beatles track one.

So, to me, that suggests that it was utterly down to the music that the Beatles one 'worked'.

Pound to a penny this doesn't go viral like the other clip.

It's also a rather sad attempt to cash in on the success of the other clip by Norman. Not a patch on his other videos. Hope Bliss charged him through the nose.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 13th, 2006, 2:49 am

Hee hee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEb3YknGUks

Vova Galchenko's (Garfield student) version of the Bliss/Fatboy Slim video.

Now *this* is juggling. Also a brilliantly shot and cut video. I also think it somehow captures more of the 'happy' and 'nice' vibe of the Bliss Beatles video. Not sure why.

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » June 13th, 2006, 9:07 am

NO question, this kid is good. Where is he from? And where is he based?

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » June 13th, 2006, 9:13 am

BTW... re the Bliss Fatboy Commercial. You have to realize the directors and writers of the commercials tell the artist what to do, how to do it, light it, etc. edit it etc.

I still take Bliss for his ability to sell his work.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 13th, 2006, 9:23 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
NO question, this kid is good. Where is he from? And where is he based?

Russia

www.galchenko.com

Check out the videos. The demo one is amazing.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 13th, 2006, 9:29 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
BTW... re the Bliss Fatboy Commercial. You have to realize the directors and writers of the commercials tell the artist what to do, how to do it, light it, etc. edit it etc.

I still take Bliss for his ability to sell his work.

To me, it looks far too similar to the Beatles one to be not at least massively influenced by Bliss. Don't you think it's similar.

It's a shame it's so boring. But excellent that other jugglers are getting the chance to show how it could/should be done on the DVD:

From his myspace site:

Be Fatboy Slims Next Music Video!

Fatboy Slims videos always break new ground -(think of the dance troupe in Praise You or Christopher Walkens extraordinary dancing in Weapon Of Choice). The video for his new single That Old Pair Of Jeans is another tale of the unexpected. Renowned comedian and entertainer Chris Bliss interprets the music of Fatboy Slim through the medium of juggling-brilliant!

Can you juggle to music like Chris Bliss? If Fatboy Slim thinks so too then he'll pick your juggler video to be the winning video that will feature on the enhanced version of the second single to be released from the Greatest Hits album this Summer.

http://www.myspace.com/fatboyslim

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 13th, 2006, 10:22 am

I've no dog in this fight but I'm a bit confused. This Fatboy Slim (I'm sorry I've not heard of him or them but I like the song) released the Bliss thing as a video to MTV and the sort or is it part of a contest? The young mans video was beautifully done and I would think if I was an artist I'd rather have that represent me than the Bliss one. Nothing against Bliss but his display compared to that kid is like me compared to Bliss...doesn't even come close.
Steve V

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 13th, 2006, 11:38 am

Originally posted by Steve V':
I've no dog in this fight but I'm a bit confused. This Fatboy Slim (I'm sorry I've not heard of him or them but I like the song) released the Bliss thing as a video to MTV and the sort or is it part of a contest? The young mans video was beautifully done and I would think if I was an artist I'd rather have that represent me than the Bliss one. Nothing against Bliss but his display compared to that kid is like me compared to Bliss...doesn't even come close.
Steve V

Steve, you are exactly right. The Bliss Fatboy Slim promo video is the official promo video. He is also running a competition to find another juggling video. Oddly echoing the whole thread. The russian genius entered his amazing video in an attempt win this slot.

Interestingly, I kinda of think this is the way Garfield should have done it in the first place. And the kid is/was a student of Garfield. Rather than a parody, this is just illustrating beautiful, choreographed, well cut, technically very very hard juggling.

I somehow think it is a bit of a finger flipping at Bliss, and wonder if Garfield had anything to do with it.

Either way, what a beautiful piece of juggling and awesome promo video eh?

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 13th, 2006, 2:17 pm

It is. I love the filming of the clubs from overhead, never seen that before (not that I've seen a lot of juggling) and it looked great.
Steve V

Guest · Postby **Guest** » June 13th, 2006, 3:48 pm

Originally posted by Steve V':
It is. I love the filming of the clubs from overhead, never seen that before (not that I've seen a lot of juggling) and it looked great.
Steve V

Me neither. The accuracy of the throws not to whack the camera alone is impressive!

Guest · Postby **Guest** » January 29th, 2007, 7:27 pm

Hee hee!
As someone (juggling-lay-man entirely w/o intellectual reference points on which to base ANY sort of opinion) who just stumbled onto the Chris Bliss clip (and was pretty damned impressed by it) only to find out that in fact he totally sucked, I felt compelled to mention that this thread reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld's joke about the athletes that train 4 years or more to run the 100 meters in the Olympics.
The guy that runs 9.90 seconds, world's fastest man, wins the gold medal, THE greatest guy in the world.
The runner up, at 9.91 seconds: TOTAL FAILURE AND LOSER--might as well jump off a bridge.

Just because one guy is good, why does it have to be mean that the other guy completely sucks? Braque wasn't Picasso, but he was still great, I say!!

Why is it always one OR the other:
Lennon or McCartney? Leonardo or Michaelangelo? The Clash or The Dead Kennedys? Can't we all just get along?

I would think jugglers would be glad with ANY attention their virtually invisible (which may be why I enjoyed such an obviously "piece-of-crap act" like Bliss' in the first place) art got.

Marc Rehula · Postby **Marc Rehula** » January 30th, 2007, 10:54 am

Originally posted by castawaydave:
I would think jugglers would be glad with ANY attention their virtually invisible (which may be why I enjoyed such an obviously "piece-of-crap act" like Bliss' in the first place) art got.

Ha ha! As someone who dabbles in magic AND juggling, I've got to add that it's nice to see my two hobbies converge in my favorite forum!

P.S. Anyone know a decent juggling forum?

P.P.S. Bliss is good, but the 'Diss' is astonishing.

Pete Biro · Postby **Pete Biro** » January 31st, 2007, 10:33 am

I'd hire them both, but for different reasons.

First choice for me? Bliss. He is likeable, entertaining and a funny guy.

mrgoat · Postby **mrgoat** » February 6th, 2010, 8:02 pm

I thought as we were bumping old threads, I'd try this one from 3 years ago.

Whatever happened to Chris Bliss?

Richard Kaufman · Postby **Richard Kaufman** » February 6th, 2010, 8:16 pm

He went amiss.

NCMarsh · Postby **NCMarsh** » February 6th, 2010, 9:24 pm

Chris is still working, and seems to be focused on parody (http://chrisbliss.com/?page_id=7) and "more difficult" still doesn't mean "more entertaining"

mrgoat · Postby **mrgoat** » February 7th, 2010, 6:33 am

NCMarsh wrote:Chris is still working, and seems to be focused on parody (http://chrisbliss.com/?page_id=7) and "more difficult" still doesn't mean "more entertaining"

Odd how such an entertaining performer is now writing. I guess he wasn't *that* entertaining.

:)

Chris Aguilar · Postby **Chris Aguilar** » February 7th, 2010, 1:49 pm

mrgoat wrote:
NCMarsh wrote:Chris is still working, and seems to be focused on parody (http://chrisbliss.com/?page_id=7) and "more difficult" still doesn't mean "more entertaining"

Odd how such an entertaining performer is now writing. I guess he wasn't *that* entertaining.

:)

That seems an odd assumption to make. :)

NCMarsh · Postby **NCMarsh** » February 7th, 2010, 2:00 pm

He is still performing. Nice rooms, too:

http://www.bureaufriendly.com/2.php

mrgoat · Postby **mrgoat** » February 7th, 2010, 7:18 pm

NCMarsh wrote:He is still performing. Nice rooms, too:

http://www.bureaufriendly.com/2.php

Interesting. All this time I thought he was a juggler. I didn't realise he was a poor stand up that did some juggling at the end of his not very funny set. Now I see why the crowd go crazy.

He stopped telling bad jokes!

mrgoat · Postby **mrgoat** » February 7th, 2010, 7:19 pm

Anyway, I only bumped this thread because Bish the Magish bumped his own thread.

It was kinda meant to take the piss.

But never mind.

I do still think Bliss is a bad juggler though. For the record.

x

Larry Horowitz · Postby **Larry Horowitz** » February 8th, 2010, 1:11 am

And in your biased opinion what would quantify a good juggler?
(bearing in mind I know why you are biased)

magicam · Postby **magicam** » February 8th, 2010, 7:04 am

mrgoat wrote:... It was kinda meant to take the piss. ...

You succeeded.

mrgoat · Postby **mrgoat** » February 8th, 2010, 7:22 am

Larry Horowitz wrote: And in your biased opinion what would quantify a good juggler?
(bearing in mind I know why you are biased)

Someone that balances immense technical skill with the poise and grace of a dancer.

(And wait a few days and the reason I am biased will have a new promo video done. I saw a sneak preview. Beautiful.)

Larry Horowitz · Postby **Larry Horowitz** » February 9th, 2010, 3:27 pm

Someone should send his friend a copy.

NCMarsh · Postby **NCMarsh** » February 9th, 2010, 7:50 pm

On the subject of great jugglers, a few personal favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOAGkdoXJH4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRYzjqchNKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjHoedoSUXY