Chris Bliss Diss

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 13th, 2006, 10:48 am

Originally posted by mrgoat:

That must be why he got booked to do his show on cruise ships then.
Jason Garfield Wrote:

It has become as easy as learning how to juggle 3 objects,a beginners level, and then memorizing someone else's lines and you too can be a hack juggler and work on cruise ships.

This is unacceptable.
Damn those cruise audiences for not being smart enough to appreciate that Garfield has more balls than the average hack juggler! ;)

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 13th, 2006, 11:17 am

Chris:

DIALOGUE ALERT DIALOGUE ALERT DIALOGUE ALERT

On-point responses challenging mrgoat's statements can often result in the creation and destruction of straw men or the off-point adoption of ultra-cool personas.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 13th, 2006, 11:31 am

Originally posted by mrgoat:
...Are we all wasting our time trying to do anything complicated? ...
That's a good question.

Would the egg bag work with "Stairway to Heaven" or perhaps Springstein's "Born to Run"?

Sure folks could produce flags accompanied by the national anthem complete with flash cannons.

And for the rest of the show?

How about producing mom, hotdogs and apple pies?

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 14th, 2006, 6:39 am

A couple of points;

One for mrgoat; you repeatedly talk about hopefully learning something from this debate. Following the line of your thinking through your posts points to something interesting.

Initially you say about juggling "All there is to see is an appreciation of a techinical skill" although fairly soon you say "Of course juggling is more than techincal skill"

But what is it that Bliss has? I'm no expert in this field, but you say Bliss is "technically weak"..."anyone can duplicate Bliss's performance" (Actually, I know I couldn't, but no matter)

So is it about his style? No, for "I think Bliss has little"..."he looked stiff and didn't move to the music well"..."His choreography is dreadful"

So what could it be?
"I imagine it was a lot to do with the music. Too many jugglers use dreadful music." "It was the music that made it, not the juggling."


"I also imagine it was because hardly anyone gets to see 3 ball routines" (Actually I disagree with this...most jugglers I see do three ball routines; the bob-a-job jugglers you see at parties and fairs and stuff - I think it is the professionals you are talking about, and most of us rarely get to see them)

The key point is - you then go on to say "OK I was being a tad trite when I suggested it was just the music...It is certainly the balance"

But the balance of what? given all you've granted him is the music?


And a second point for Clay; you seem remarkably quick to assume what other people are thinking. For me, that undermines whatever your point is. for instance, "thats just not my opinion thats the opinion of every person posting to this thread". Er..it isn't mine.

And "Im amazed at the amount of grace being shown to you by others here"...er, i'm not showing mrgoat grace. I'm very grateful to him for starting this thread. and the fact that it has gone on for four pages suggests to me that I'm not the only one.

You've even managed to get deep into mrgoat's psyche..."he just cant stand the thought that Bliss is a more popular performer, and if judged by popularity alone, is indeed a far better performer, than his brother"
Wow - this is impressive! And this is without getting him to lie on a couch for ten hourly sessions, or doing a centre tear on him.

You have twice referred to what you call mrgoat's '[censored]'...can you see how your comments above read to me?

Several posts ago you said "time for me to clam it". Frankly, I'm really appreciating this thread, apart from your rantings. I'm not asking you to clam it - it's not my forum, besides, I'm interested in anyone's views on the main thread topic. It's just that, even though I clearly do have time on my hands to cut and paste bits of conversation, I'd rather not waste time reading your rants.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 14th, 2006, 8:06 am

DomT.... So how do you like Bliss? :rolleyes:
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 14th, 2006, 12:25 pm

DomT:

Yes, depending on your point of view and how you read this thread and my posts, I could understand why you would think some (all?) of my comments are BS. As I think I may have (at the very least) suggested earlier in this thread, this is the first time I think Ive ever really laid into someone on this forum. When all is said and done, I will not point to my contributions to this thread as highpoints of participation on this forum. But, I did it and its out there, for better or worse.

Regarding my comment thats just not my opinion thats the opinion of every person posting to this thread, I think its pretty darned clear that I made that comment in the context of whether or not anyone thought the Garfield video was funny and nothing more. Heres the entire paragraph:

As presented on Garfields website, his video using 5 balls to mimic a 3 ball routine may be a lot of things (including a wonderful display of technical skill), but it aint funny. And thats just not my opinion thats the opinion of every person posting to this thread, except you. Given your claims about how easy Bliss routine is, funny would be a Bliss look-alike sitting backstage, reading The Idiots Guide to Juggling 5 minutes before curtain time and a successful performance.
So, I read your comment (criticism, it seems) to mean that you do find that video funny. Fair enough. But to be fair to me, can you find any comment by anybody on this thread prior to that post of mine that says they thought the video itself was funny? Especially by you, since, if you read my comment in context, you must be saying that you found the video funny but I cant remember reading that from you in any prior post. But maybe I missed something, from you or someone else. If I did, then I stand corrected.

I cant explain why this thread has gone on for 4 pages, except to observe that if my lengthy rants and goatys repetitive posts were removed, this thread would be much skinnier indeed. You suggest that others are appreciative to mrgoat for starting this thread. I dont read it that way, but its a matter of personal interpretation, so I cant dispute your claim.

As to getting deep into goats mind, thats just my opinion and interpretation based on this thread. When one reads it, I think one sees goaty repeating a lot of the same things, as if hes trying to convince others of his point of view. Thats how I draw the conclusion possibly erroneous that he cant stand the thought... etc. I dont think my conclusion is outrageous or unreasonable, but clearly it could be wrong only the goat knows for sure.

I see that you do not appreciate my rants, for at least a couple of reasons. You are the first to say so, I believe, but of course that doesnt mean that others dont share your opinion on that point. Since you have taken the time (albeit perhaps wasted time in your view) to read my rants, then you know that I have already acknowledged, in one way or another, that possibility.

Your post to me was fairly civil, without too much sarcasm, and raised some legitimate issues in your eyes. I have tried to respond in kind, staying on point, without twisting facts, wandering off point, or creating straw men. I think this illustrates a fundamental difference between me and mrgoat. I dont have any problem with addressing issues or questions directly. I also (usually and to the best of my ability) dont have a problem admitting Im wrong or acknowledging someone elses point of view. Admittedly, this thread may not be the best example of my ability to be tolerant, but Ive already addressed that matter to some degree above and in my prior posts. And I think that the sum total of my contributions to GF is clear enough demonstration of the fact that I take no delight in ranting and generally see little use for it as a means of communication as I said, this thread represents the first time I have ever gone on a rant.

Finally, goat claims that I have some personal thing with him. It certainly didnt start out that way, and Im still resisting the temptation to make it so, notwithstanding his private e-mail to me (and of course, he doesnt mention my private reply to him, which, while still candid and certainly no love letter, was not a rant and did open the door for a meaningful dialogue, if he so chose but admitting to that wouldnt serve his purposes). If one were to read my posts carefully, I think they would find that, in most cases, I tried to make it clear that my criticisms were limited to goats words and deeds on this thread. In other words, I was trying to make it clear that my criticism was limited in scope and not intended to be general commentary on him or his contributions to this forum.

If I really had it in for goat, why would I come to his defense? In one exchange, goat said that a magician (Penn) was the one who suggested that the 5-ball routine be done. Pete Biro stated that Penn wasnt a magician. I replied that I agreed with goat on that point and gave what I believed were principled reasons for saying so. So on that point, mrgoat got my vote (for what its worth). And it will continue to be that way whenever I happen to find myself in agreement with him, on this thread or any other.

Clay

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 14th, 2006, 1:08 pm

Oner of the few juggling acts that sticks in my mind is Air Jazz, who performed a few times on the Paul Daniels show. Their combination of apparent confidence and enjoyment of what they did, combined with their use of music, really seemed to set them apart from any other juggler I had seen. Now - I have no idea whether their technical ability was good, or if they were as unique as I thought they were.
But I guess their apparent distinctiveness helped set them apart. While Garfield mocked Bliss, to many it seems this was taken as a form of copying.
And I think therein lies an interesting lesson, on the value of distinctivness v copying.
Now sure, that is an old lesson - but still, how many of us can say we even try to be distinctive in our magic, let alone succeed? Blaine, Copperfield, Derren Brown, Penn and Teller, Ricky Jay - whatever thier technical ability - all succedded in differentiating themsleves from the grey mass....

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Mark Collier » April 14th, 2006, 1:44 pm

If anyone in the area is interested, I will be the MC at the 30th Annual Isla Vista Juggling Festival Show tomorrow night at 7:30. Tickets are $9.00 and benefits the Santa Barbara Rape Crisis Center.

Jason Garfield, The Raspini Brothers, John Gilke and Olga Galchenko are among the scheduled performers.

Isla Vista Theater (used to be The Magic Lantern)
960 Embarcadero del Norte
Isla Vista, Ca 93117

Isla Vista is just North of Santa Barbara near UCSB.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 14th, 2006, 7:15 pm

Here's a link to a bunch of dancers comparing the two videos:

http://recreation-news.com/article.php? ... _nr=161305

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 15th, 2006, 2:45 am

Thanks for the link. I think this sums it up:

Thus, we clearly see the difference between someone who is technically
skillful (able to do more difficult 5-ball juggling routines) but has
little artistic talent or musicality (Jason) and someone who has a lot
of artistic talent and uses a modest amount of skill to do something
artistic and moving, properly choreographed to music (Chris).

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 15th, 2006, 7:38 am

fascinating that these dancers so completely disagree with mrgoat.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 15th, 2006, 10:20 am

Originally posted by DomT:
fascinating that these dancers so completely disagree with mrgoat.
Heh. They were a few dancers on Usenet. Citing a usenet discussion as any measure of expertise is flawed. Look at alt.tragic. How many people there would you quote as authorities on magic? Aside from the mighty Ray Haddad, inventor of the bra trick (sic).

To go back to your longer post Dom, maybe it's not just the music. But I believe that was the contributory factor in the popularity.

When I said that not many people got to see 3 ball stuff, I meant good three ball stuff. Sorry for not being clear on that point.

Air Jazz rocked though.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 15th, 2006, 10:53 am

mrgoat wrote:

Heh. They were a few dancers on Usenet. Citing a usenet discussion as any measure of expertise is flawed. Look at alt.tragic. How many people there would you quote as authorities on magic?
Of all the ideas shared on this thread, IMHO one of the key points seems to be precisely that laymen (those with no real expertise) prefer the Bliss video over the Garfield video (I understand that the reasons for that preference may not be crystal clear or the subject of agreement by all on this thread). That said, if that is indeed one of the key points, then the expertise of the commentators for purposes of determining popularity would seem to be largely irrelevant. Moreover, it seems that, at some point, if the seemingly overwhelming sentiment on this thread is to be dismissed (as in they are a few magicians on an internet forum and have no juggling expertise), then the vocalization by this minority, that minority, and the other minority, should prompt even the most stubborn of Garfield advocates to think that maybe there is a critical mass of such minorities sufficient to justify the concession that, for whatever reason, it just so happens that the Bliss video, as technically weak as it supposedly is, etc., is the favorite of ignoramus laymen, who just happen to constitute probably 99%+ of the audiences who pay for and watch professional juggling.

Clay

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 15th, 2006, 2:16 pm

Clay;

Thanks for joining the discussion.
Although, again you seem to be doing your 'putting your words in other people's mouths' exercise when you say "it seems that, at some point, if the seemingly overwhelming sentiment on this thread is to be dismissed (as in they are a few magicians on an internet forum and have no juggling expertise.
However....
I completely agree with you in that everyone seems to agree that laypeople in general prefer the Bliss video.

But - I disagree when you say that "the expertise of the commentators...would seem to be largely irrelevant"

I see where you are coming from - and I welcome the views of non-experts to try to rationalise why they prefer one rather than the other.
But I also welcome the views of those who have studied aspects of the performing arts over years to try to understand this preference.

To take an example - mrgoat cites a couple of jugglers to say Bliss's juggling wasn't that hot. I'm happy to defer to this judgement. and I don't thionk many people are arguing with that.

As another example - the dancers say Bliss's choreography was far better. Now, that could be a useful input - except that mrgoat questions their expertise.
To date, though, mrgoat hasn't provided any expert "witnesses" to argue against what seems to be the only expert evidence we have about the Bliss choreography.
(Sorry for the quasi-legal jargon - i'm staying in a judge's house, and the thinking seeps through....)

At heart - we have a contrast here, where, all seem to be agreed, one is more popular than the other.
On every count, bar the music, mrgoat asserts that Garfield is better than Bliss. He quotes jugglers for the technical expertise angle - but he seems to be asking us to take his view for granted that Garfield is better also for style choreography and personality.
And when mrgoat says "the music...was the contributory factor in the popularity." he still isnt suggesting what the 'balancing" factors were.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 15th, 2006, 4:30 pm

DomT:

I think you've noted probably the biggest issue on this thread (at least based on volume). Whatever the outcome is (if there is any) or should be (for those who feel strongly enough, one way or the other), it's been fairly lopsided thus far, at least so far as I can discern.

To your other points, I dont understand your point about me putting words in other peoples mouths. All I did was express an opinion regarding overwhelming sentiment which you seemed to clearly agree with. Then I pretty accurately paraphrased one of goatys comments, except I substituted magicians in for dancers. In good faith it seems to me that an accurate assessment (at least so far as you and I are concerned) coupled with a pretty tight paraphrase is totally fair game and certainly isnt putting words into other peoples mouths by any reasonable standard of exchange Im aware of. That said, maybe I missed something in the translation, so would you please clarify how that constitutes putting words in other peoples mouths?

On your second point, technically you have a valid point and once again I stand corrected Although I think its fairly implicit in the post, that layperson expertise comment would have been crystal clear (and right on the money, Ill claim), had it been made clear that, if using layperson popularity is the criterion for judging a performers success, artistic merit, etc. (as seems to have been argued by many on this thread), then expert commentary is not relevant.

You stated:
mrgoat cites a couple of jugglers to say Bliss's juggling wasn't that hot. I'm happy to defer to this judgement. and I don't thionk many people are arguing with that
.
If I understand your post correctly, you recognize the two different standards which seem a major part of the discussion: lay expertise and professional expertise. Wouldnt the question of whether or not many people would disagree with your statement depend on the standard being applied?

Clay

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 16th, 2006, 2:06 am

Hi Clay - I've emailed you about the frst part of your post, because I don't think it is of general interest.

On your second point on the role of expert commentary - I think it depends on what you want to get out of this thread. If you are, for example, happy to settle with the conclusion that Bliss's video got passed around so much because laypeople thought him to be technically accomplished, stylish, and well choreographed - fine.
I'm personally coming at it from the point of view of what can we, as magicians, learn from this popular success of a juggler.

Just to take one aspect, the technical ability.
Mrgoat says "anyone can duplicate Bliss's performance"
Pete biro says "If what Bliss does is SO EASY... howcom everybody isn't doing it."

Pete goes in to say "It's turned into a He Said She Said"

And Jim Maloney says "Perhaps we might communicate better if we had some sort of definition as to what qualifys a person as a "good juggler"?

Now there are some interesting magic tricks out there which give the impression of great skill, but are actually very simple to perform.
Maybe the same is true here. I don't know.
But it would help overcome the He Said She Said impasse, and help make it a more productive discussion.
And the same would apply to things like choreography.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 16th, 2006, 2:11 am

mrgoat; when you say "When I said that not many people got to see 3 ball stuff, I meant good three ball stuff" - and this was part of your expanation of why Bliss was being so popular...can I take this to be you agreeeing that Bliss's ball work is 'good'?????

The other thing I completely missed before - when you say his success was down to the music...but that it was a matter of balance - perhaps you were referring to left channel right channel balance? har har har....

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 16th, 2006, 11:50 am

The thing is, that everyone seems to be missing. Garfield's was a parody.

Worth remembering.

I will ask him for a routing he thinks is 'better' and see what I can get.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 16th, 2006, 12:59 pm

If it was a parody, why did he bother with five balls?

I think what matters is the ENORMOUS number of viewings Bliss' video clip generated nation, if not world-wide.

Then, my guess, Garfield wanted to latch on to his coat tails?

I'd like to see Garfield's 'act' BUT need it to be closer to L.A.
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 16th, 2006, 1:49 pm

Pete:

10-15 years ago, I would have told you it's a lovely drive up the 101 to Isla Vista. But the LA gridlock seems to have worked its way well past Camarillo. No longer a fun drive.... but still pretty up above Ventura.

If a parody, in my eyes it's not very good at all. As good and entertaining as Garfield may be as a juggler, as a parodist his work (to me) leaves something to be desired. Maybe the critical eyes that have focused on Bliss like a laser beam should focus that expertise on assessing and breaking down Garfield's abilities and presentation as a parodist.

Clay

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 16th, 2006, 2:32 pm

You are right about the gridlock up the 101... no fun at any hour.
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 16th, 2006, 3:34 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
You are right about the gridlock up the 101... no fun at any hour.
At least you don't have to pay 16 bucks to drive into town, like us Londoners do!

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 16th, 2006, 5:50 pm

Dominic: you wrote: Hi Clay - I've emailed you about the frst part of your post, because I don't think it is of general interest.

You may be right, in which case I dont understand why you made it an issue in the first place. It was your thing from the git go. I just gave you the courtesy of a reply.

Clay

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 17th, 2006, 12:20 am

Yes - it was my mistake, Clay.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 20th, 2006, 9:36 am

from my friend juggler Steve Langley:

Here's a few other links related to the story. It's like the freaking energizer bunny, it will not die.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188918,00.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xlf-7CZ ... is%20bliss

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 20th, 2006, 9:45 am

Originally posted by John Tudor:
from my friend juggler Steve Langley:

Here's a few other links related to the story. It's like the freaking energizer bunny, it will not die.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188918,00.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xlf-7CZ ... is%20bliss
interesting:

"It's just a brilliant piece of music, it has a wonderful message in it and I think the combination of this music and this particular performance which is pretty freely given and I think people just see this as something they are putting a lot of value adding is going on and I think people are just ready for a positive change and somehow that's being reflected."

He also talks about the positive-ness (new word invention alert) of the piece.

Maybe that's actually it. It's something that's just (and I hate the word) 'nice'. Makes people smile.

Not be impressed by the technique, just feel nice.

Wonder if that's the secret of it all.

If so, what can magicians do that make people feel nice?

Anniversary Waltz?

Something where the spec is empowered?

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 20th, 2006, 11:34 am

I don't like the music (I'm a Stones guy), I don't like the facial expression, and I don't like the fact that everyone can freakin' juggle but me.
Steve V

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 20th, 2006, 1:08 pm

Glad to see the two new clips :cool:
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 20th, 2006, 6:01 pm

To Steve V: I agree. Stones. Im a Beggars Banquet through Goats Head Soup guy. Never really cared for the Beatles.

Re goatys observation on nice, as simplistic and vague as it may sound, heck, why not? Im no longer a performer, so others doubtless would have better insight. But Ive always tended to liken magic with wonderment, with going back to being a child, when miracles were not so strange and an everyday occurrence. Bob Lund once said (and Im paraphrasing) that magic appeals to the inner child in us, and thus gives us peace and hope respite from the harsh reality of the world. Maybe its the same for juggling. Something simple, something nice. Something simply, wonderfully.... nice.

Clay

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 20th, 2006, 6:56 pm

Nice is NICE and we need more in today's totally obscene-laced world.
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 20th, 2006, 7:17 pm

Pete: Did you attend Bob's lecture to the MCA back in, I think, 1992? He more or less ripped into collectors qua collectors and apparently got a standing ovation from the very folks he ripped! :D Clay

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 20th, 2006, 7:42 pm

No, missed that... I really liked Lund and was able to visit his museum a few times.
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 21st, 2006, 2:24 am

Reminds me that a few years back there was a big experiment run in the US to find out once and for all what were the key measures of advertising that best related to subsequent sales.
The single best measure is whether people 'liked' the ad.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 21st, 2006, 4:40 am

Originally posted by DomT:
Reminds me that a few years back there was a big experiment run in the US to find out once and for all what were the key measures of advertising that best related to subsequent sales.
The single best measure is whether people 'liked' the ad.
Yet again, market research proving its worth and ROI in spades!!!

:p

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 25th, 2006, 1:36 pm

Jimi Hendrix? Bah! What's so great about Purple Haze? I can play it too. In fact...watch me. I'll do it blindfolded on my head. Obviously I'm better then he was.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 25th, 2006, 2:07 pm

I can't believe Bliss' balls are still in the air here... :D :D :D all three of 'em... :cool:
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 29th, 2006, 9:34 pm

Even the Moody Blues' Mike Pinder agrees:

Follow Chris Bliss ;)

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 29th, 2006, 11:14 pm

You want to see someone really the best? Got to www.viktorkee.com and look at the videos. Oh My is this art in juggling, or what?
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 30th, 2006, 11:33 am


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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby David Britland » May 17th, 2006, 5:35 pm

Looks like Chris Bliss had the last laugh on this one.

The video scored a phenomenal amount of hits on the web. Some sources talk of 20 million in 40 day period.

As a result Chris is featured in the latest Fatboy Slim video which just aired on Channel 4 in the UK.

Link to Fatboy Slim Press Release

Which reminds me, if you want to check out popularity ratings on the web then Google Trends is worth a try.

Here's the Google Trend for Chris Bliss:

Google Trend for Chris Bliss

With this site you can finally settle arguments about who is most popular since you can compare one search term with another. Dangerous!


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