The Perfect Retention
The Perfect Retention
I think that the retention vanish is one of teh most visual vanishes but what is the proper retention. I have seen people pull back with teh thumb and others that pivot with the thumb and the first two fingers. What is the best retention?
Re: The Perfect Retention
It's 'teh' one that best mimics the way you would naturally transfer a coin.
Retention vanishes in general are traditionally harder to choreograph with natural body movements than other forms of vanishes, but they make up for this in increased visual deception.
As long you have a motivation for the the transfer, and for the vanish, you should be alright. My favorite move is Jonathan Townsend's, which can be found in Apocalypse.
Retention vanishes in general are traditionally harder to choreograph with natural body movements than other forms of vanishes, but they make up for this in increased visual deception.
As long you have a motivation for the the transfer, and for the vanish, you should be alright. My favorite move is Jonathan Townsend's, which can be found in Apocalypse.
Re: The Perfect Retention
When critiquing others spelling in print, one should make sure to employ ones 'bests' proofreading skills.
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Perfect Retention
There are various methods for the Retention of Vision Vanish or Retention Pass. There are two in Greater Magic: one by Dai Vernon and the other by T.J. Crawford--they differ in technique. Then you have the method published by Roth, and the method by Steve Freeman (originally published in Genii years ago where the base of the thumb rolls the coin behind the fingers).
There is no "best" method--but there may be a best method for YOU. You will learn this only by trying all the extant methods and experimenting with them over time.
There is no "best" method--but there may be a best method for YOU. You will learn this only by trying all the extant methods and experimenting with them over time.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
The 'best' method is the one no one sees, or even suspects.
Finding the one that's "best" for you is the hard work, and the fun.
P&L
D
Finding the one that's "best" for you is the hard work, and the fun.
P&L
D
Re: The Perfect Retention
Gimme, gimme, gimme. Take, take, take. I can't take it anymore! All you do is take, want and want some more! What's the best this? what's the best that? who's the best?
Seriously dude, STOP. Are you the type of person who goes into someones home and drive them crazy with your inane questions? "Oh, you're cooking dinner, what's the recipe? You bring NOTHING and yet expect people to give you EVERYTHING. You are Rude and obnoxious with your constant badgering. I mean come on, enough is enough.
I don't understand you. You obviously are NOT a magician, and yet you think it is fine for you to come into our forum and pilfer all secrets and information. Why don't you contribute something instead of always taking! didn't you ever hear the expression; It's better to give than receive?
I read this forum all the time and enjoy a lot of it for the most part, but when a person only takes and takes some more, someone has to speak up. A day doesn't go by without you asking for something else! There is an Italian word for what you do; Hutspa, and man you got a lot of it!
I'm sorry Rich, but come on. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll be VERY surprised. This guy Is not a member of any union and yet he feels like he's entitled to all this information.
Seriously dude, STOP. Are you the type of person who goes into someones home and drive them crazy with your inane questions? "Oh, you're cooking dinner, what's the recipe? You bring NOTHING and yet expect people to give you EVERYTHING. You are Rude and obnoxious with your constant badgering. I mean come on, enough is enough.
I don't understand you. You obviously are NOT a magician, and yet you think it is fine for you to come into our forum and pilfer all secrets and information. Why don't you contribute something instead of always taking! didn't you ever hear the expression; It's better to give than receive?
I read this forum all the time and enjoy a lot of it for the most part, but when a person only takes and takes some more, someone has to speak up. A day doesn't go by without you asking for something else! There is an Italian word for what you do; Hutspa, and man you got a lot of it!
I'm sorry Rich, but come on. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll be VERY surprised. This guy Is not a member of any union and yet he feels like he's entitled to all this information.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
Hutspa is Italian? I thought chutzpah was Yiddish...
We have a similar phrase in Scots. It's 'asking questions from people who are more knowledgeable than you, and being happy if they take time to answer'. It's not the answer that is important, but what one does with it. If the student takes in the advice that he is given and mulls on it for a bit before applying it to improve his performance/routine/shaving regimen then great. It is, after all, what these fora are meant to be.
As for the retention pass, whatever method you use, make sure that it very closely resembles the action you use to _actually_ place a coin into your hand. If you dump coins into your hand in an offhand manner and then draw attention to the move when you do the retention vanish you will have a jarring, unnatural action that will break the flow of whatever you are doing.
Before you go on, ask yourself this; you are placing a coin in your hand - why does this warrant _any_ interest at all? If it is the natural, everyday action that many people do without thinking, why on earth are you drawing attention to it? Placing the coin/ball/diamond into your hand should be completely offhand and largely out of the concious arena (if that's not too pretentious...) If you pay no attention to it, neither will your audience.
While searching for your method, may I suggest the five year old test? This works for many sleight of hand moves, and can be a bit of an eye opener.
First, procure a five year old child. If you don't have one of your own, a slightly older one will do, but be _very_ careful when trying to track one down. When you have your child, give them a coin and ask them to transfer it from their dominant hand into their non dominant hand, and then close a fist. Pay very special attention to how they do this - this is the action your want to emulate, as it will be the most natural method you will ever see. (This method may seem strange, but it is surprisingly effective. It also works well for the top change and the Diagonal Palm Shift).
Basically I'm trying to take two very short and important phrases and pad them out in an attempt to avoid doing the washing up.
Take care, Ian
P.S. They are 'Be Natural' and 'Use your Head'. But you already knew that.
We have a similar phrase in Scots. It's 'asking questions from people who are more knowledgeable than you, and being happy if they take time to answer'. It's not the answer that is important, but what one does with it. If the student takes in the advice that he is given and mulls on it for a bit before applying it to improve his performance/routine/shaving regimen then great. It is, after all, what these fora are meant to be.
As for the retention pass, whatever method you use, make sure that it very closely resembles the action you use to _actually_ place a coin into your hand. If you dump coins into your hand in an offhand manner and then draw attention to the move when you do the retention vanish you will have a jarring, unnatural action that will break the flow of whatever you are doing.
Before you go on, ask yourself this; you are placing a coin in your hand - why does this warrant _any_ interest at all? If it is the natural, everyday action that many people do without thinking, why on earth are you drawing attention to it? Placing the coin/ball/diamond into your hand should be completely offhand and largely out of the concious arena (if that's not too pretentious...) If you pay no attention to it, neither will your audience.
While searching for your method, may I suggest the five year old test? This works for many sleight of hand moves, and can be a bit of an eye opener.
First, procure a five year old child. If you don't have one of your own, a slightly older one will do, but be _very_ careful when trying to track one down. When you have your child, give them a coin and ask them to transfer it from their dominant hand into their non dominant hand, and then close a fist. Pay very special attention to how they do this - this is the action your want to emulate, as it will be the most natural method you will ever see. (This method may seem strange, but it is surprisingly effective. It also works well for the top change and the Diagonal Palm Shift).
Basically I'm trying to take two very short and important phrases and pad them out in an attempt to avoid doing the washing up.
Take care, Ian
P.S. They are 'Be Natural' and 'Use your Head'. But you already knew that.
Ian Kendall Close up magician in Edinburgh and Scotland
Re: The Perfect Retention
OK, point made. Maybe it's all the booze and "cold medication"? or the combo of both?
Check out Davey Roth or Johnny Thompson. They have "The best" retention. Take baby steps. The longest journey starts with the first step...
Hope to see you become a FISM winner with all the knowledge you amass?!
If not, we're gonna kick your butt! (just kidding, not really) now git to learnin'...
Check out Davey Roth or Johnny Thompson. They have "The best" retention. Take baby steps. The longest journey starts with the first step...
Hope to see you become a FISM winner with all the knowledge you amass?!
If not, we're gonna kick your butt! (just kidding, not really) now git to learnin'...
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Perfect Retention
The fact of the matter is that there are lots of people interested in magic "out there" who have no interaction with other magicians via anything but a computer. So, it's fine for student to come on here and ask questions: that's what I used to do every week at Tannen's.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
As to who gets the best "burn"... you have to see Mickey Silver in action.
How strange to fuss over something intended to duplicate a natural transfer. Yes there are some VERY stilted strange looking fussy transfers out there which SCREAM "sleight of hand" yet seem to interest magicians, but anyway...
1) motivate the transfer
2) transfer appropriately
How strange to fuss over something intended to duplicate a natural transfer. Yes there are some VERY stilted strange looking fussy transfers out there which SCREAM "sleight of hand" yet seem to interest magicians, but anyway...
1) motivate the transfer
2) transfer appropriately
Re: The Perfect Retention
Let's not be too hard on Student for asking us our opinions. I'm sure that if we had a question about whatever his occupation is, he would be kind enough to answer us.
Student, you have gotten a lot of really good advice. There are several things to consider when doing any move or sleight. One is the context. Another is the motivation. A third is what the move is really supposed to look like.
You can have a retention vanish that is perfect as a standalone move, but it may not be any good in the context you want to use it in.
The context of the move also includes the motivation. Figure out why you are putting a coin into your hand, and what you would do with the empty hand once you have deposited the coin.
Do some actual coin placements. The idea of emulating a child is good. The idea of emulating yourself may work better for you.
Student, you have gotten a lot of really good advice. There are several things to consider when doing any move or sleight. One is the context. Another is the motivation. A third is what the move is really supposed to look like.
You can have a retention vanish that is perfect as a standalone move, but it may not be any good in the context you want to use it in.
The context of the move also includes the motivation. Figure out why you are putting a coin into your hand, and what you would do with the empty hand once you have deposited the coin.
Do some actual coin placements. The idea of emulating a child is good. The idea of emulating yourself may work better for you.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
Oh, you said emUlation. Whew. Been a long day...Bill Palmer wrote:
The idea of emulating yourself may work better for you.
John
Escamoteurettes -- my blog
Re: The Perfect Retention
You just have to stop before the hair grows on the palms of your hand or you go blind.
I squeaked by that one.
I squeaked by that one.
Re: The Perfect Retention
I don't mean to come down on anybody. I was just raised differently. I was always told that when I visit someones home, to bring a gift.
Richard, I do understand your point and believe me I go out of my way to help any/everyone who wants it. But please let me ask; When you used to go to Tannen's did you buy anything?
That's all I'm trying to say. And I won't say anymore, sorry to offend.
Richard, I do understand your point and believe me I go out of my way to help any/everyone who wants it. But please let me ask; When you used to go to Tannen's did you buy anything?
That's all I'm trying to say. And I won't say anymore, sorry to offend.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
There's a relevant story I like to relate in these circumstances, it may help to explain my point of view...
In late 1988 I was just back from a trip as a councellor in an upstate New York camp. On my way through London I blagged my way into the Magic Circle meeting which at that time was camping out in the Victory Services club. I wandered from group to group, not really fitting in, and not knowing anyone. I'd been 'in' magic for about three years at this point, so still very much wet behind the ears.
At one table I edged my way into a group and watched. One of the people in the session was Mike O'Brien, a very respected card magician from London. Mike didn't know me from Adam, and at the time I was dressed in jeans, sweatshirt and had a shaved head (many years before it was fashionable - perhaps my best trick was getting into the meeting in the first place...) He started off by showing me a handling for a double lift. Then he talked me through the Alpha Toss from Almanac. He spent over twenty minutes working with me, helping me on techniques that I was either rubbish at or had mislearned. After about ten minutes I was feeling a bit uneasy and felt I had to say something.
'I'm sorry', I said,'I've got nothing to show you in return'.
Mike didn't skip a beat,nor even look up from the deck.
'Don't worry', he replied. 'You will one day'.
I've tried to follow Mike's lead for the past couple of decades. Random acts of kindness can change the world, and rarely for the worse. The student may never do anything to help me, or anyone else who helps him, but in time he will pass on advice to a neophyte and _that_ person may give something to us. Or maybe not - maybe just to someone else. But the goodwill will have been passed on, and that can only be a good thing.
The important thing is that Student takes his lessons and studies them.
Take care, Ian
In late 1988 I was just back from a trip as a councellor in an upstate New York camp. On my way through London I blagged my way into the Magic Circle meeting which at that time was camping out in the Victory Services club. I wandered from group to group, not really fitting in, and not knowing anyone. I'd been 'in' magic for about three years at this point, so still very much wet behind the ears.
At one table I edged my way into a group and watched. One of the people in the session was Mike O'Brien, a very respected card magician from London. Mike didn't know me from Adam, and at the time I was dressed in jeans, sweatshirt and had a shaved head (many years before it was fashionable - perhaps my best trick was getting into the meeting in the first place...) He started off by showing me a handling for a double lift. Then he talked me through the Alpha Toss from Almanac. He spent over twenty minutes working with me, helping me on techniques that I was either rubbish at or had mislearned. After about ten minutes I was feeling a bit uneasy and felt I had to say something.
'I'm sorry', I said,'I've got nothing to show you in return'.
Mike didn't skip a beat,nor even look up from the deck.
'Don't worry', he replied. 'You will one day'.
I've tried to follow Mike's lead for the past couple of decades. Random acts of kindness can change the world, and rarely for the worse. The student may never do anything to help me, or anyone else who helps him, but in time he will pass on advice to a neophyte and _that_ person may give something to us. Or maybe not - maybe just to someone else. But the goodwill will have been passed on, and that can only be a good thing.
The important thing is that Student takes his lessons and studies them.
Take care, Ian
Ian Kendall Close up magician in Edinburgh and Scotland
Re: The Perfect Retention
If there is a valuable lesson to be learned in this thread, it's got _nothing_ to do with a retention vanish, and it is in Ian's post.
Re: The Perfect Retention
I'll agree with that -- well said, Ian.
I was fortunate enough to have similar experiences when starting out, even though I was a no nothing kid with not much to offer but a lot of questions. It seems the spirit of magic used to be about helping each other out, and especially the guy just starting. On the Internet things are decidedly different, with beginners berated for asking questions any of us would likely ask if just starting. Nice that at least here things aren't that way.
Oh, and I agree with Jonathan -- Mickey Silver's retention work is something special to behold.
I was fortunate enough to have similar experiences when starting out, even though I was a no nothing kid with not much to offer but a lot of questions. It seems the spirit of magic used to be about helping each other out, and especially the guy just starting. On the Internet things are decidedly different, with beginners berated for asking questions any of us would likely ask if just starting. Nice that at least here things aren't that way.
Oh, and I agree with Jonathan -- Mickey Silver's retention work is something special to behold.
Re: The Perfect Retention
Yes, and perhaps a second lesson as regards cogent arguments and discussion online as opposed to proffering distraction and homilies for lessons best learned in kindergarten.If there is a valuable lesson to be learned in this thread, it's got _nothing_ to do with a retention vanish, and it is in Ian's post.
SOME adults can be mentors. Others will try to get you in their car to do bad things. Some want your money. ...
Okay, short attention span life-coaching is over for now... back to the retention pass for those willing to put in the work on the timing and sleight(s).
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Re: The Perfect Retention
A coin vanish with a very nice retention of vision that Howie Scharzman originally published in Magicana (in Genii) has been redescribed by Harry Lorayne in Best of Friends III. This is a wonderful move in Howie's hands.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
Because my coins routine is stapled together with vanishes and reporductions, I end by producing multiplue coins out of the air by useing transfers. I grab a coin from the air, appear to put it in my pocket, and the produce another in a similar manor. I normally use a false put a few times and then as soon as they are doubting the truth of teh move, I use a retention vanish to diprove all doubt, but I don't draw extra attention to the move. I just do it and anyone watching will say something like "They crazy part is that I say him put it into his pocket!" which causes everyone else to fall into it.
And, 495east, no offence taken. I do ask alot of question and take a lot of information. I am still wet behind the ears and will be the first to admit I have a lot to learn. Don't quit with teh brutal honesty. It is respectable and I will need someone to tell me the truth and not sugar coat it. The reason that I don't post a lot of answers as compaired to questions is because I am fairly unexperienced and the other members can probably answer the question better than I can. I will try to give my input more often if you like.
And, 495east, no offence taken. I do ask alot of question and take a lot of information. I am still wet behind the ears and will be the first to admit I have a lot to learn. Don't quit with teh brutal honesty. It is respectable and I will need someone to tell me the truth and not sugar coat it. The reason that I don't post a lot of answers as compaired to questions is because I am fairly unexperienced and the other members can probably answer the question better than I can. I will try to give my input more often if you like.
Re: The Perfect Retention
I appreciate your candor. Please send me an e-mail, and I will, in turn, send you some material on coin vanishes that I have put together over a period of time, with help from Johnny Brown and Jules de Barros.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
Your video clip is labeled Mickey Silver's Retention of Vision. It certainly does use retention of vision and it is a false placement but it is not even close to the style and execution that Mickey Silver uses nor is it as deceptive as Mickey Silver's vanish.
Magica Analytica
barnowskymagic.com
barnowskymagic.com
Re: The Perfect Retention
I thought it was pretty good! The only work of Mickey Silver's I've seen was very fast moving - this by contrast was slow with VERY little [if any] finger movement. So while I agree it isn't "Mickey Silver's" retention, I'd argue it IS fairly deceptive [and natural - bonus!]!nor is it as deceptive as Mickey Silver's vanish
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Re: The Perfect Retention
Iain,
There was no finger movement from the angle we were shown. It looked rather stiff and unnatural to my eye. The fingers were still in the fist as he withdrew his hand. It was OK but isn't in the same league as Mickey's SUV.
Larry
There was no finger movement from the angle we were shown. It looked rather stiff and unnatural to my eye. The fingers were still in the fist as he withdrew his hand. It was OK but isn't in the same league as Mickey's SUV.
Larry
Magica Analytica
barnowskymagic.com
barnowskymagic.com
Re: The Perfect Retention
Of course it was a Retention Vanish, Pete.Originally posted by Pete Biro:
it wasn't a retention vanish at all.
What would you rather call it?
Re: The Perfect Retention
Hi, it looks like you've got the sleight part pretty well down - would you post another video taken from a foot or so further away so we can see if you get a burn (or retention) when you perform the thing?Originally posted by fondouble:
MY retention of vision
http://www.dailymotion.com/fondouble/vi ... vision_fun
Re: The Perfect Retention
to me a retention vanish is where you still appear to see the coin in the recieving hand. This vid shows the coin completely covered when the hand closes.
Stay tooned.
Re: The Perfect Retention
Well, I don't agree with your assessment, but to each his own.Originally posted by Pete Biro:
to me a retention vanish is where you still appear to see the coin in the recieving hand. This vid shows the coin completely covered when the hand closes.
Re: The Perfect Retention
Steve, then you don't believe any retained image of the coin is needed to be a retention vsnish?
Stay tooned.
Re: The Perfect Retention
I remember several years ago asking many conjurors why a Retention Vanish was so titled. Since some vanishes were referred to as Retention-of-Vision vanishes and some were referred to as Retention Vanishes, the answer wasn't obvious (to me).Originally posted by Pete Biro:
to me a retention vanish is where you still appear to see the coin in the recieving hand. This vid shows the coin completely covered when the hand closes.
Was it the retention-of-vision aspect, or was it because the putting hand retained the coin? And everybody was insistent that it was the retention-of-vision aspect.
Dave
Re: The Perfect Retention
What distinguishes a pass as regards its getting a retention [of vision] or "burn" is a subtle bit of timing in the coordination between the closing of ones fingers in the to hand and the retraction of the item out of view in the from hand.
in short: "got burn?"
The term "retention" came into vogue around here after "optical" and before David Roth offered the more cogent term "burn" in describing a coin pass. In this case the notion of burn or retinal afterimage is what seems closest to an accurate description of the intended optical effect.
The pass (or transfer) itself can be any of a put, take, toss, grab... type actions where an object is passed from one hand to the other.
in short: "got burn?"
The term "retention" came into vogue around here after "optical" and before David Roth offered the more cogent term "burn" in describing a coin pass. In this case the notion of burn or retinal afterimage is what seems closest to an accurate description of the intended optical effect.
The pass (or transfer) itself can be any of a put, take, toss, grab... type actions where an object is passed from one hand to the other.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
495east asked me the question of whether I used to buy anything at Tannen's. The answer is yes--a lot. Tricks, books, magazines, all of it. Lots and lots. Never bought by mail order, didn't go to conventions, only bought from Tannen's.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
I remember similar times at Tam Shepard's [Roy Walton's shop in Glasgow] in the early 70's. There was something about the place... lighting, smell, space... only last year I was there again and it all comes back easily. And Roy did a perfect retention demo at the same time. Ah, ....only bought from Tannen's
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Re: The Perfect Retention
Now is Reality !
See this http://www.thegurumeditation.com
WOW! This man, promises very well, here is the perfect retention vanish,
perhaps even better than the ones you see in Las Vegas!
Never seen anything so natural and special!
The Perfect Retention Vanish, there is now!
See this http://www.thegurumeditation.com
WOW! This man, promises very well, here is the perfect retention vanish,
perhaps even better than the ones you see in Las Vegas!
Never seen anything so natural and special!
The Perfect Retention Vanish, there is now!
Re: The Perfect Retention
Gurumeditation wrote:Now is Reality !
See this http://www.thegurumeditation.com
WOW! This man, promises very well, here is the perfect retention vanish,
perhaps even better than the ones you see in Las Vegas!
Never seen anything so natural and special!
The Perfect Retention Vanish, there is now!
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Re: The Perfect Retention
With coins, another vote here for Mickey Silver's. With cards, check out Glenn Morphew's rub-a-dub vanish on the Vanishing, Inc. site.
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Re: The Perfect Retention
Well I went to Gurumeditation's site and looked at his retention (selling for $25) and I see nothing new at all. Anyone else look at it?