The Perfect Retention

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Guest

The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 4:14 am

I think that the retention vanish is one of teh most visual vanishes but what is the proper retention. I have seen people pull back with teh thumb and others that pivot with the thumb and the first two fingers. What is the best retention?

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 7:38 am

It's 'teh' one that best mimics the way you would naturally transfer a coin.

Retention vanishes in general are traditionally harder to choreograph with natural body movements than other forms of vanishes, but they make up for this in increased visual deception.

As long you have a motivation for the the transfer, and for the vanish, you should be alright. My favorite move is Jonathan Townsend's, which can be found in Apocalypse.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 10:12 am

When critiquing others spelling in print, one should make sure to employ ones 'bests' proofreading skills.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 7th, 2007, 11:18 am

There are various methods for the Retention of Vision Vanish or Retention Pass. There are two in Greater Magic: one by Dai Vernon and the other by T.J. Crawford--they differ in technique. Then you have the method published by Roth, and the method by Steve Freeman (originally published in Genii years ago where the base of the thumb rolls the coin behind the fingers).
There is no "best" method--but there may be a best method for YOU. You will learn this only by trying all the extant methods and experimenting with them over time.
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Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 12:03 pm

The 'best' method is the one no one sees, or even suspects.

Finding the one that's "best" for you is the hard work, and the fun.

P&L
D

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 12:20 pm

Gimme, gimme, gimme. Take, take, take. I can't take it anymore! All you do is take, want and want some more! What's the best this? what's the best that? who's the best?
Seriously dude, STOP. Are you the type of person who goes into someones home and drive them crazy with your inane questions? "Oh, you're cooking dinner, what's the recipe? You bring NOTHING and yet expect people to give you EVERYTHING. You are Rude and obnoxious with your constant badgering. I mean come on, enough is enough.
I don't understand you. You obviously are NOT a magician, and yet you think it is fine for you to come into our forum and pilfer all secrets and information. Why don't you contribute something instead of always taking! didn't you ever hear the expression; It's better to give than receive?
I read this forum all the time and enjoy a lot of it for the most part, but when a person only takes and takes some more, someone has to speak up. A day doesn't go by without you asking for something else! There is an Italian word for what you do; Hutspa, and man you got a lot of it!

I'm sorry Rich, but come on. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll be VERY surprised. This guy Is not a member of any union and yet he feels like he's entitled to all this information.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Ian Kendall » March 7th, 2007, 12:50 pm

Hutspa is Italian? I thought chutzpah was Yiddish...

We have a similar phrase in Scots. It's 'asking questions from people who are more knowledgeable than you, and being happy if they take time to answer'. It's not the answer that is important, but what one does with it. If the student takes in the advice that he is given and mulls on it for a bit before applying it to improve his performance/routine/shaving regimen then great. It is, after all, what these fora are meant to be.

As for the retention pass, whatever method you use, make sure that it very closely resembles the action you use to _actually_ place a coin into your hand. If you dump coins into your hand in an offhand manner and then draw attention to the move when you do the retention vanish you will have a jarring, unnatural action that will break the flow of whatever you are doing.

Before you go on, ask yourself this; you are placing a coin in your hand - why does this warrant _any_ interest at all? If it is the natural, everyday action that many people do without thinking, why on earth are you drawing attention to it? Placing the coin/ball/diamond into your hand should be completely offhand and largely out of the concious arena (if that's not too pretentious...) If you pay no attention to it, neither will your audience.

While searching for your method, may I suggest the five year old test? This works for many sleight of hand moves, and can be a bit of an eye opener.

First, procure a five year old child. If you don't have one of your own, a slightly older one will do, but be _very_ careful when trying to track one down. When you have your child, give them a coin and ask them to transfer it from their dominant hand into their non dominant hand, and then close a fist. Pay very special attention to how they do this - this is the action your want to emulate, as it will be the most natural method you will ever see. (This method may seem strange, but it is surprisingly effective. It also works well for the top change and the Diagonal Palm Shift).

Basically I'm trying to take two very short and important phrases and pad them out in an attempt to avoid doing the washing up.

Take care, Ian

P.S. They are 'Be Natural' and 'Use your Head'. But you already knew that.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 1:50 pm

OK, point made. Maybe it's all the booze and "cold medication"? or the combo of both?

Check out Davey Roth or Johnny Thompson. They have "The best" retention. Take baby steps. The longest journey starts with the first step...
Hope to see you become a FISM winner with all the knowledge you amass?!
If not, we're gonna kick your butt! (just kidding, not really) now git to learnin'...

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 7th, 2007, 2:16 pm

The fact of the matter is that there are lots of people interested in magic "out there" who have no interaction with other magicians via anything but a computer. So, it's fine for student to come on here and ask questions: that's what I used to do every week at Tannen's.
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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 2:31 pm

As to who gets the best "burn"... you have to see Mickey Silver in action.

How strange to fuss over something intended to duplicate a natural transfer. Yes there are some VERY stilted strange looking fussy transfers out there which SCREAM "sleight of hand" yet seem to interest magicians, but anyway...

1) motivate the transfer

2) transfer appropriately

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 7:34 pm

Let's not be too hard on Student for asking us our opinions. I'm sure that if we had a question about whatever his occupation is, he would be kind enough to answer us.

Student, you have gotten a lot of really good advice. There are several things to consider when doing any move or sleight. One is the context. Another is the motivation. A third is what the move is really supposed to look like.

You can have a retention vanish that is perfect as a standalone move, but it may not be any good in the context you want to use it in.

The context of the move also includes the motivation. Figure out why you are putting a coin into your hand, and what you would do with the empty hand once you have deposited the coin.

Do some actual coin placements. The idea of emulating a child is good. The idea of emulating yourself may work better for you.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby John LeBlanc » March 7th, 2007, 8:33 pm

Bill Palmer wrote:
The idea of emulating yourself may work better for you.
Oh, you said emUlation. Whew. Been a long day...

John
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Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2007, 12:37 am

You just have to stop before the hair grows on the palms of your hand or you go blind.

I squeaked by that one.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2007, 9:53 am

I don't mean to come down on anybody. I was just raised differently. I was always told that when I visit someones home, to bring a gift.

Richard, I do understand your point and believe me I go out of my way to help any/everyone who wants it. But please let me ask; When you used to go to Tannen's did you buy anything?

That's all I'm trying to say. And I won't say anymore, sorry to offend.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Ian Kendall » March 8th, 2007, 10:51 am

There's a relevant story I like to relate in these circumstances, it may help to explain my point of view...

In late 1988 I was just back from a trip as a councellor in an upstate New York camp. On my way through London I blagged my way into the Magic Circle meeting which at that time was camping out in the Victory Services club. I wandered from group to group, not really fitting in, and not knowing anyone. I'd been 'in' magic for about three years at this point, so still very much wet behind the ears.

At one table I edged my way into a group and watched. One of the people in the session was Mike O'Brien, a very respected card magician from London. Mike didn't know me from Adam, and at the time I was dressed in jeans, sweatshirt and had a shaved head (many years before it was fashionable - perhaps my best trick was getting into the meeting in the first place...) He started off by showing me a handling for a double lift. Then he talked me through the Alpha Toss from Almanac. He spent over twenty minutes working with me, helping me on techniques that I was either rubbish at or had mislearned. After about ten minutes I was feeling a bit uneasy and felt I had to say something.

'I'm sorry', I said,'I've got nothing to show you in return'.

Mike didn't skip a beat,nor even look up from the deck.

'Don't worry', he replied. 'You will one day'.

I've tried to follow Mike's lead for the past couple of decades. Random acts of kindness can change the world, and rarely for the worse. The student may never do anything to help me, or anyone else who helps him, but in time he will pass on advice to a neophyte and _that_ person may give something to us. Or maybe not - maybe just to someone else. But the goodwill will have been passed on, and that can only be a good thing.

The important thing is that Student takes his lessons and studies them.

Take care, Ian

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2007, 6:00 pm

If there is a valuable lesson to be learned in this thread, it's got _nothing_ to do with a retention vanish, and it is in Ian's post.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2007, 6:58 pm

I'll agree with that -- well said, Ian.

I was fortunate enough to have similar experiences when starting out, even though I was a no nothing kid with not much to offer but a lot of questions. It seems the spirit of magic used to be about helping each other out, and especially the guy just starting. On the Internet things are decidedly different, with beginners berated for asking questions any of us would likely ask if just starting. Nice that at least here things aren't that way.

Oh, and I agree with Jonathan -- Mickey Silver's retention work is something special to behold.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2007, 7:03 pm

If there is a valuable lesson to be learned in this thread, it's got _nothing_ to do with a retention vanish, and it is in Ian's post.
Yes, and perhaps a second lesson as regards cogent arguments and discussion online as opposed to proffering distraction and homilies for lessons best learned in kindergarten.

SOME adults can be mentors. Others will try to get you in their car to do bad things. Some want your money. ...

Okay, short attention span life-coaching is over for now... back to the retention pass for those willing to put in the work on the timing and sleight(s).

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 8th, 2007, 8:27 pm

A coin vanish with a very nice retention of vision that Howie Scharzman originally published in Magicana (in Genii) has been redescribed by Harry Lorayne in Best of Friends III. This is a wonderful move in Howie's hands.
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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 12th, 2007, 5:24 am

Because my coins routine is stapled together with vanishes and reporductions, I end by producing multiplue coins out of the air by useing transfers. I grab a coin from the air, appear to put it in my pocket, and the produce another in a similar manor. I normally use a false put a few times and then as soon as they are doubting the truth of teh move, I use a retention vanish to diprove all doubt, but I don't draw extra attention to the move. I just do it and anyone watching will say something like "They crazy part is that I say him put it into his pocket!" which causes everyone else to fall into it.

And, 495east, no offence taken. I do ask alot of question and take a lot of information. I am still wet behind the ears and will be the first to admit I have a lot to learn. Don't quit with teh brutal honesty. It is respectable and I will need someone to tell me the truth and not sugar coat it. The reason that I don't post a lot of answers as compaired to questions is because I am fairly unexperienced and the other members can probably answer the question better than I can. I will try to give my input more often if you like.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » March 12th, 2007, 8:23 am

I appreciate your candor. Please send me an e-mail, and I will, in turn, send you some material on coin vanishes that I have put together over a period of time, with help from Johnny Brown and Jules de Barros.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 11th, 2007, 2:02 am


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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Larry Barnowsky » December 11th, 2007, 6:14 am

Your video clip is labeled Mickey Silver's Retention of Vision. It certainly does use retention of vision and it is a false placement but it is not even close to the style and execution that Mickey Silver uses nor is it as deceptive as Mickey Silver's vanish.
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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 11th, 2007, 6:50 am

nor is it as deceptive as Mickey Silver's vanish
I thought it was pretty good! The only work of Mickey Silver's I've seen was very fast moving - this by contrast was slow with VERY little [if any] finger movement. So while I agree it isn't "Mickey Silver's" retention, I'd argue it IS fairly deceptive [and natural - bonus!]!

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Larry Barnowsky » December 11th, 2007, 5:53 pm

Iain,

There was no finger movement from the angle we were shown. It looked rather stiff and unnatural to my eye. The fingers were still in the fist as he withdrew his hand. It was OK but isn't in the same league as Mickey's SUV.

Larry
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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Pete Biro » December 11th, 2007, 7:34 pm

it wasn't a retention vanish at all.
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 11th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
it wasn't a retention vanish at all.
Of course it was a Retention Vanish, Pete.

What would you rather call it?

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 11th, 2007, 8:03 pm

Originally posted by fondouble:
MY retention of vision


http://www.dailymotion.com/fondouble/vi ... vision_fun
Hi, it looks like you've got the sleight part pretty well down - would you post another video taken from a foot or so further away so we can see if you get a burn (or retention) when you perform the thing?

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Pete Biro » December 11th, 2007, 8:35 pm

to me a retention vanish is where you still appear to see the coin in the recieving hand. This vid shows the coin completely covered when the hand closes.
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 11th, 2007, 8:51 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
to me a retention vanish is where you still appear to see the coin in the recieving hand. This vid shows the coin completely covered when the hand closes.
Well, I don't agree with your assessment, but to each his own.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Pete Biro » December 11th, 2007, 10:09 pm

Steve, then you don't believe any retained image of the coin is needed to be a retention vsnish?
Stay tooned.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 12th, 2007, 2:37 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
to me a retention vanish is where you still appear to see the coin in the recieving hand. This vid shows the coin completely covered when the hand closes.
I remember several years ago asking many conjurors why a Retention Vanish was so titled. Since some vanishes were referred to as Retention-of-Vision vanishes and some were referred to as Retention Vanishes, the answer wasn't obvious (to me).

Was it the retention-of-vision aspect, or was it because the putting hand retained the coin? And everybody was insistent that it was the retention-of-vision aspect.

Dave

Guest

Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 12th, 2007, 7:03 am

What distinguishes a pass as regards its getting a retention [of vision] or "burn" is a subtle bit of timing in the coordination between the closing of ones fingers in the to hand and the retraction of the item out of view in the from hand.

in short: "got burn?"

The term "retention" came into vogue around here after "optical" and before David Roth offered the more cogent term "burn" in describing a coin pass. In this case the notion of burn or retinal afterimage is what seems closest to an accurate description of the intended optical effect.

The pass (or transfer) itself can be any of a put, take, toss, grab... type actions where an object is passed from one hand to the other.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 12th, 2007, 11:27 am

495east asked me the question of whether I used to buy anything at Tannen's. The answer is yes--a lot. Tricks, books, magazines, all of it. Lots and lots. Never bought by mail order, didn't go to conventions, only bought from Tannen's.
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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Pete Biro » December 12th, 2007, 11:38 am

I used to until Spina era
Stay tooned.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Guest » December 12th, 2007, 11:52 am

only bought from Tannen's
I remember similar times at Tam Shepard's [Roy Walton's shop in Glasgow] in the early 70's. There was something about the place... lighting, smell, space... only last year I was there again and it all comes back easily. And Roy did a perfect retention demo at the same time. Ah, ....

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Gurumeditation » June 29th, 2014, 8:33 am

Now is Reality !

See this http://www.thegurumeditation.com



WOW! This man, promises very well, here is the perfect retention vanish,
perhaps even better than the ones you see in Las Vegas! 

Never seen anything so natural and special! 



The Perfect Retention Vanish, there is now!

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby mrgoat » June 29th, 2014, 9:21 am

Gurumeditation wrote:Now is Reality !

See this http://www.thegurumeditation.com



WOW! This man, promises very well, here is the perfect retention vanish,
perhaps even better than the ones you see in Las Vegas! 

Never seen anything so natural and special! 



The Perfect Retention Vanish, there is now!


Image

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Steve Bryant » June 29th, 2014, 9:27 am

With coins, another vote here for Mickey Silver's. With cards, check out Glenn Morphew's rub-a-dub vanish on the Vanishing, Inc. site.

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Re: The Perfect Retention

Postby Tom Gilbert » June 29th, 2014, 11:18 am

Well I went to Gurumeditation's site and looked at his retention (selling for $25) and I see nothing new at all. Anyone else look at it?


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