Warning - Pirate Videos Online

[CraigMitchell]

Those of you who frequent www.themagiccafe.com may be presented with the following offer:

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I've gathered 180 or more lectures(most of cd and dvd files ( *.mpg , *.avi) for 2 years.

you can see my list and conform it.

ONLY for TRADE

I don't live in u.k or america , so I want to use my FTP SERVER in order for us to upload or dowanload

cd or dvd files.

if you are interested, plz visit my link site ( consist of magician's name , file size and file format that I have)

read that page and send me email .

THANKS !!!

MY LIST =

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His list of pirate wares include just about the entire L&L catalog plus others

Be warned

[Guest]

Most don't know how a FTP server works so I can't see this person doing a tremdous ammount of damage.
A warning doesn't hurt though!

[Steve Brooks]

For what it's worth, the bum who sent those 'Private Messages' on The Magic Caf was banned! Actually, he has been banned several times, and appears to be from Korea.
I personally reported this idiot to the authorities...piracy hurts all of us. :mad:

[Guest]

Speaking of piracy... my jaw dropped yesterday...

I was perusing a peer to peer network (kazza) for music with 'magic' in the title...(sidenote: only using it for research; I buy any music that I like/use.)

I typed 'magic' in the search space... &
I was VERY surprised to see no less that 1/2 dozen "Penquin Magic" instructional vid clips and... here's the killer: There were two MAJOR videos on there: David Roth's Expert Coin Magic #1 and A Coin vid from Mike Ammar (note: I did not download any of these, so I'm not sure that the titles matched the exact material, but I assume they do.)

Just sending a heads up... if anyone knows the who to Contact @ A-1/L&L/Penquin then, you might wish to do so / tell them to keep an eye on kazza.

An open note to any net-kidz who participate in this foul nonsense: You're hurting yourselves and your art by doing this... don't believe me? Then, keep it up.

[Jon Racherbaumer]

I agree on most counts regarding piracy, having been regularly victimized ever since the dark ages of Xerography. Most counter-measures were only temporarily defeated. However, the nettlesome, vexing problems lie in the technologies that we love-hate.

Intellectually property is now imperiled.
Bottlegging and ripping off abound to a degree we can no longer accurately measure or fully understand.

This is why I predicted a return to secrecy. If a precious idea is not in an accessible form, it cannot be pirated. This may take awhile in the magic community...but I still predict that it will happen...

In the meantime, we may see a day when the Internet becomes expensive, heavily taxed, and stringently policed...

Big Brother and Big Business have more juice than most of us think and fear...

Onward...

[Kim]

I was going to let this die out, but since its posted I want to clarify something.
I visit both this forum and The Magic cafe.
I tried to access the Magic Cafe about a week ago and got a message I had been permanently banned.
Well, the culprits username there apparently was "magician Kim". My name is Kim.
So when Mr Brooks was getting messages that magician Kim was bootlegging he went thru the database and found me and banned me by mistake.
It took a rather lengthy email exchange for me to convince him it wasnt me,but eventually he found the correct person and banned him.
I now have access back and the real person has been banned, but it was quite an ordeal to go through. Those that know me know I am strongly agaist theft of any kind. I am glad Mr Brooks and I got it straightened out.
Kim

[John Smetana]

Originally posted by D. Conn:
Speaking of piracy... my jaw dropped yesterday...

An open note to any net-kidz who participate in this foul nonsense: You're hurting yourselves and your art by doing this... don't believe me? Then, keep it up.

Problem is Doug..the ones that are doing this couldn't care less..what a damn shame on them and on us..at least those of us who share openly with some of these ass holes. As Mr. R posted.. a return to secrecy may be in order..it's way past time for that to happen

Best thoughts,
John Smetana

[David Mitchell]

I hate to toot someones horn, but it seems that one company has gotten it right. For now.

Ellusionist has protected it's online/downloaded videos using Microsoft's Media Rights protection. This has yet be to cracked. Adobe has a method of granting it's PDF rights to one individual at a time. And then there is e-books, where a book can only be accessed on a certain reader, and none others.

The means are out there, but people just don't want to take the time/energy/money to protect their investments. I've spent time on file sharing networks, and there is one or two that are incredibly blatant. I've seen the entire L&L cataloge on someone's computer at one point.

Some people just don't get it.

David.

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Mitchell:


Ellusionist has protected it's online/downloaded videos using Microsoft's Media Rights protection.

you're right, and its a terrible shame the originators didnt do the same to keep it away from Brad.

[Guest]

I am pleased that Kim is back on the Magic Cafe.I am further pleased to hear that he is very much against bootleg copies of video tapes.

However, I am not pleased that he has chosen to mention that my psychic video course ( the BEST training in the business, incidentally) can be found on E-Bay at $100.

These are bootleg copies. Before people wax sanctimonious perhaps they should refrain from advertising illegal and bootlegged copies.

I am surprised that the Magic Cafe would allow posts like this. If they do not behave themselves I will come back to haunt them. I will have a new computer soon and they will not be able to figure out who I am any more.

Oh dear! I had better go. Silly Paul Alberstat is getting excited! Don't worry. I won't be back until I have a new computer and you won't be able to detect me. Not for a few posts anyway.

Cheerio.

Mark Lewis
www.marklewisentertainment.com

[Scott Fridinger]

Originally posted by David Mitchell:
I hate to toot someones horn, but it seems that one company has gotten it right. For now.

Ellusionist has protected it's online/downloaded videos using Microsoft's Media Rights protection. This has yet be to cracked. Adobe has a method of granting it's PDF rights to one individual at a time. And then there is e-books, where a book can only be accessed on a certain reader, and none others.

The means are out there, but people just don't want to take the time/energy/money to protect their investments. I've spent time on file sharing networks, and there is one or two that are incredibly blatant. I've seen the entire L&L cataloge on someone's computer at one point.

Some people just don't get it.

David.

I have a few points, first Ellusionist's protection does nothing, you can use other players to see it,and if you don't turn on the copyright protection in your settings, it means nothing and it is being stolen as well.

With the digital age as it is, there is really no way to go back to secrecy. If there are online magic sites which allow you to download clips or instructions, then there will be people sharing them. You can put passwords on files, or set them for only one user, but someone will find a way around these issues.

I too found these downloads, a guy I know, not a magician, was boasting he could find anything online, I said he would never find magic, I WAS WRONG. I have talked to some of the members of these rooms, and they are mostly young guys, who found Ellusionist and Penguin and started sharing these like they share everything else. Most of the stuff is poor quality, but it is out there. Microsoft can not, and does not stop the individual users from theft for the most part, they go for the big lawsuits against big companies who do not buy the correct number of licenses. They don't spend the time and money going after "the little guys". Does L&L or anyone else in the magic community have the money to take on these expensive lawsuits. Good quality magic is loosing out to cheap online shops to begin with, NOT really sure about the figures here I only assume.

Anyway, the only way to stop the pirating would be to stop selling magic. The magicians who care will go on, they will be the ones making the money in the craft, and there will always be pirating I fear...

Scott

[David Mitchell]

Scott, a few questions.

How do you propose turning of the security of something that is hard coded into the video file? is there a setting I don't know about?

Secondly, what other players can play Media Player 9 Encoded WMV files?

The way our system works, is that you have to be online to enter a key (3 times over a period of one month). Each time the key is entered it stored against the order and the users IP address. Media player generates a License based on this information that is then stored in the users computer. Any attempt to copy the file and reuse the key invalidates it, and then we are notified.

This has not prevented people from ripping DVD's and putting them online, or from trading files that were in existance before the implementation of this, but it has worked.

David.

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by David Mitchell:
Scott, a few questions.

How do you propose turning of the security of something that is hard coded into the video file? is there a setting I don't know about?

Secondly, what other players can play Media Player 9 Encoded WMV files?

The way our system works, is that you have to be online to enter a key (3 times over a period of one month). Each time the key is entered it stored against the order and the users IP address. Media player generates a License based on this information that is then stored in the users computer. Any attempt to copy the file and reuse the key invalidates it, and then we are notified.

This has not prevented people from ripping DVD's and putting them online, or from trading files that were in existance before the implementation of this, but it has worked.

Nothing is going to prevent people from stealing intellectual property, short of a death penalty that is actually administered. Anything else is mitigated risk. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Copy protection is a "lowest common denominator" form of protection. The average, point-and-click guy will be prevented from distributing CDRs of content. But in the end, you have nothing protecting your content from someone with the slightest inclination..

In this particular case, regardless of how much you rely on DRM from Microsoft, here's all it takes to circumvent it:

1. Some kid records the output of Media Player (this can be done to a digital camcorder, or using a piece of software that captures the video and audio stream on the computer).

2. He records the digital camera output, or saves the captured file using whatever name he wishes.

That's it. Game, set, match.

Macrovision, the "bullet proof" method by which video tapes were to be protected, is easily circumvented by a device you buy at Best Buy for $30.

The problem with copy protection is, the better it is, the more likely you are to engage someone with the ability and inclination to prove how worthless it is just to show you how fruitless are your efforts at protecting your stuff. This is not rocket science.

In the end, things are precisely how Jim Steinmeyer summed it up to me twelve, thirteen years ago: you rely on the decent people to continue to be decent, and expect the thieves to do precisely what thieves do.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

[David Mitchell]

John:

I agree whole heartedly. If people want to steal, then there is nothing that you can do to prevent it.

I've frequented these file-sharing rooms just to keep an eye on what is available and how long it takes to become that way and I have noticed a DEFINITE lengthening of time betweeen a release, and a pirate copy being available. That, and I also scan the rooms to check out user names, in case some dolt decided to use the same name that he signed up to our forums with. It's sad how these people actually think that they are doing magicians a favour, but you can't argue with the "I am right" teenager mentality. (Most of them are kids).

However, in light of all the steps that have been taken by us we feel it's worth it. Another popular magic site (Penguin Magic) sells online videos as well, and I've seen them available on the file sharing sites the same day they started being sold. Any delay is a good delay I suppose.

David.

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by David Mitchell:
However, in light of all the steps that have been taken by us we feel it's worth it. Another popular magic site (Penguin Magic) sells online videos as well, and I've seen them available on the file sharing sites the same day they started being sold. Any delay is a good delay I suppose.

Well, I won't argue if you feel your efforts are worth the time. I will suggest, though, that parallels can be drawn between this piracy issue and those of teen sex, drug abuse, etc. Education is the only thing that has any reasonable expectation of making a dent.

For instance, laws prohibiting the use of certain substances haven't lessened their use to any degree that really matters. Morals cannot be legislated.

Years and years ago, I had a talk with my daughter about drug abuse. I told her something far different than what I was taught in school: I told her people take drugs because they make people feel good. That's the truth. I also explained the consequences of drug abuse. It didn't seem prudent to tell her anything else; she was going to find out the truth either way, and I'd prefer she hear it from me. When my grand daughter is old enough, I hope she gets passed the same bit of information and advice.

In the case of piracy, I think digital publishers would do well to educate buyers on what is intellectual property and the consequences of piracy. Not just the legal consequences, but of the broader damage piracy causes. It won't stop the problem, but I think it'll have more of an effect than the temporary one anti-copying does.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

[Bill Mullins]

Originally posted by John W. LeBlanc:
For instance, laws prohibiting the use of certain substances haven't lessened their use to any degree that really matters. Morals cannot be legislated.

I tend towards libertarian philosophy, and I believe the war on drugs, and most drug laws, are an affront to liberty and a free society.

But I disagree with John's premise. I think drug laws do tend to lessen the use of drugs. The reason that I think so is that the two drugs which cause the greatest public health problems -- tobacco and alcohol -- are legal. This isn't because they are the most dangerous drugs, it's because they are ones that society accepts.

I have also seen statistics that show that prohibition worked -- alcohol consumption did go down. The side effects/unintended consequences were much more onerous than anybody had planned for, and so it was eventually repealed.

[CHRIS]

When I started Lybrary.com four years ago, to sell magic & gambling ebooks, I thought long about this issue of protection vs. no protection and what system and technology makes most sense.

My conclusion was NO PROTECTION. (Although I have no protection I have ways to trace who made the original purchase if an illegal copy turns up.) John and Scott already mentioned some of the reasoning behind why protection is not such a great thing. First of all, I thought and have now experienced, that 99% of customers are honest and fair. They pay for what they want mainly because they don't want to be crooks. Also they know and understand that their purchase will provide the means for more great contents for them. Some also value the service and advice that goes along with being a customer with Lybrary.com.

Yes, there are always a few, mainly teenagers, who copy and illegally share my ebooks. I see them in various online file sharing sites. My hope is that when they grow up they will understand that they did wrong and convert to become honest customers, perhaps rebuy what they have stolen before.

What has not been mentioned here is, I think that copy protection burdens the usage for 99% of honest customers to prevent 1% from stealing it. Having 20+ years of software development under my belt I know that there is no 100% protection anyway. It can always be stolen. So why penalize the honest users, the 99%, with password entering, and registration procedures and other hassles. (One example: If you want to read one of the PDF ebooks Geno Munari has released, Jinx for example, you have to enter everytime a password. Very inconvenient. Beside that and other problems, his Jinx CD is a bargain. I am not trying to diss his ebooks. I just disagree with some of his technical choices.) Look what the Microsoft DRM nightmare did. Many honest customers lost their investment and couldn't access their ebooks anymore. Bad idea.

My conclusion to all of this was Lybrary.com ebooks have no copy protection. This allows you to back them up and use them the way you feel most comfortable. If you want to copy them to your hard disc you can do so. If you want to have a copy on your laptop, you can do so.

After four years I have to say that I am very happy with my decision and would like to extend my gratitude and sincere thanks to all my honest customers and supporters. We all love magic and together we can make our profession, hobby and interest much more fun and worthwhile.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Chris Aguilar]

I completely agree with Chris. I would be much more likely to buy something from him knowing that I can back it up or use it on different platforms if need be. If something has onerous copy protection, as a consumer I'm not going to care for dealing with the extra hassle involved with passwords, DRM, etc. Chris (and many others out there who sell content) have learned that it's all about having good product and pricing it fairly. As he says, why inconvenience your honest customers merely to "protect" against a small minority of thieves?

___________________________________________________________
www.conjurenation.com - 'Cards Only' Forums

[Chris Aguilar]

^^^ Wow, you've just outlined the reasons I'll never buy anything DRM'ed in the fashion you mention. Having to enter code words three times just to see something I've purchased? Being stuck with DRM limitations on making backups of my purchase? Being presumptively made to feel like a criminal simply for purchasing a product?

No thanks.

I'll take a pass on the DRM crap and buy from guys like Chris W. who don't feel the need to punish honest folks for the misdeeds of those who choose to steal.

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Chris Aguilar:
I'll take a pass on the DRM crap and buy from guys like Chris W. who don't feel the need to punish honest folks for the misdeeds of those who choose to steal.

That's really the point, when you get right down to it. Honest folks are punished for the behavior of those who will circumvent the punishment themselves. Companies who believe getting a few extra days "safety" from pirates at the expense of honest customers will eventually learn what Lotus eventually learned.

Like you, I'll vote with my wallet.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

[David Mitchell]

Interesting. I don't see it as being a hassle. 10 seconds total to enter a number in order to make sure that my investment is protected?

Most of you use software that is limited in the exact same manner. If you have XP, try changing your hardware configuration a few times and see what happens, and yet I am sure that some of you stil went out and bought it anyways. Ever been forced to register software, enter a cryptic 24 character key, been forced to fill out personal information?

Let's face it, Chris made the right decision based on information available for his business. I think it's safe to say, that most of the people that copy stuff, don't really read much. It takes time, skill and patience to read a magic book. I should know, I've struggled through many, (I read to fast and skip over the "details", which is never a good thing) They would prefer the gratification of the "NOW" mentality and gravitate towards a medium that satisfies that need. Ellusionist made a decision based upon the fact that people were trading their products left right and center.

If voting with your wallet means that you don't want your investment protected, and that you would rather a company not look out for their best interests, then I suppose that is your choice. However, this problem will never go away.

And let's face it, if John Carney, Tommy Wonder or any other big name in magic decided to sell a video online and protect it the same way, would you still think that way? I am willing to bet that A LOT of you would jump on that bandwagon right away.

It's not a matter of what's right and what not, more a matter of what is smart for one company and what isn't.

Either way, it doesn't affect my decision.

David.

[Scott Fridinger]

Originally posted by David Mitchell:
Scott, a few questions.

How do you propose turning of the security of something that is hard coded into the video file? is there a setting I don't know about?

Secondly, what other players can play Media Player 9 Encoded WMV files?

The way our system works, is that you have to be online to enter a key (3 times over a period of one month). Each time the key is entered it stored against the order and the users IP address. Media player generates a License based on this information that is then stored in the users computer. Any attempt to copy the file and reuse the key invalidates it, and then we are notified.

This has not prevented people from ripping DVD's and putting them online, or from trading files that were in existance before the implementation of this, but it has worked.

David.

David
DIVX player will play WMV media player 9 encoded videos,

Also as mentioned earlier, you can rencode the video using such things as Window's Movie Maker, a free Microsoft program, and then the protection is gone.

I would agree with Chris, I don't want to enter a password everytime I want to reference an Ebook, it is different than Windows, I don't have to re-register everyday or everytime I use an application.

One last thing, don't want to stir an water, but what do you say to someone who is sharing a product in which the creator of said product is themselves "stealing" another's routine. All I am saying is that it is just one vicious circle, and if we spent as much time trying to perfect our performances as we do complaining about theft, we would all be so good we wouldn't have to worry about competing with those who spend all their time searching for new tricks to download, instead of trying to improve their magic.


Scott

[CHRIS]

This weekend I had a discussion with Steven Pendergrast, the owner of Fictionwise.com, one of the largest ebook retailer today. He said that non-encrypted ebooks from second rate authors outsell DRM protected ebooks by top authors like Stephen King. Think about that fact for a moment. He also said, that the only reason they are offering DRM ebooks is that the big book publishers insist - and they unfortunately don't know any better.

He further mentioned that DRM is one of the reasons why ebooks have a slower adoption rate than they could have without it.

No DRM for Lybrary.com! We support the honest folks and will make their ebook experience as convenient as possible.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[David Mitchell]

Chris: All the power to you. I get headaches trying to read books online, which is why I've never purchased from you. I'm a paper guy all the way. Maybe when I have to stop staring at a screen for 8 hours a day that will change.

David.

[CHRIS]

Originally posted by David Mitchell:
Chris: All the power to you. I get headaches trying to read books online, which is why I've never purchased from you. I'm a paper guy all the way. Maybe when I have to stop staring at a screen for 8 hours a day that will change.

David, everybody is different. Some like books some like ebooks. Each one is good for one thing and bad for another.

The only thing surprising to me is that some of the toughest ebook critics (and I don't mean you) are spending serious time online, reading and writing, like on this forum. I assume they are doing this from their desktop or laptop, from the screens they supposedly don't like to read. I think there is a good amount of self deception going on - maybe they are pulling their biggest trick on themselfes :-)

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[David Mitchell]

Never thought of that... but I literally sit in front of this thing far too much. Not exactly easy on the eyes.

I actually hate my computer. *grin*

David.

[Guest]

eBooks that I can download onto my PDA are the best way to go.

[Guest]

Just to comment on earlier posts, please don't lump all teenagers into the same category. I've never stolen a magic product or rescource in my life, and I don't plan on doing so. And a return to secrecy wouldn't be hard at all: all you have to do is rely on paper. That's it. Distribute information to those you trust via Postal Service or personal sessioning, and the likelyhood of your material being stolen goes down by ninety percent. So there it is: Paper is good, and so are some teenagers.

[CHRIS]

An interesting tidbit on the comment of 'paper is safe'. Before the last Harry Potter volume appeared officially, one could download an illegal electronic copy. Don't ask me how they did it, but I know that several teams competed on who will be the first.

So much to the safety of paper. With scan/OCR paper is as safe or unsafe as an ebook.

Also, hackers and crackers are drawn to protected and encrypted ebooks. They pose a challenge to them. Unprotected ebooks are of little interest. I even heard that hackers prevented the upload of unprotected ebooks to their rogue download site. They didn't like that. So in essence they were defending the open unprotected ebooks and illegally distributing the protected one. Quite contrary to the logic put forth by others.

Chris Wasshuber
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.