ERDNASE

[Richard Hatch]

I've decided to bring duplicate copies from my collection of many of the Jack Henderson titles to the upcoming Los Angeles Conference on Magic History. Rethinking the pricing on them now!

[Bill Mullins]

Any thoughts as to why Cobb would have used "Erdnase" as a pseudonym?

[Pete McCabe]

By 1905, Cobb became one of the Supreme 9 in the International Concatenated Order of Hoo-Hoo.

This is the greatest sentence in the history of the Genii Forum.

[Richard Evans]

Yes Bill,

For starters, being in the business and affiliations Cobb was in, any of the Andrews in the gambling era at the time...Cobb would have known, or knew about. And in keeping the Ruse, and knowledge of the use of pseudonyms at the time, Cobb would have used a name to throw any pursuers of the author off. Which makes a lot of sense with consideration of the subject. I wouldn't give my name backwards if I thought there would be a chance of pitch forks and torches coming after me by exposing the trade...no way! And Smith would have been prepped at the time to keep his story strait and also for his protection. Smiths few details of the account would do just that. "Just tell 'em Dalrymple was related...."

And hopefully my art submission can be seen here. (see below) Thats gonna be my T-shirt....but also to include 'Benj. F. Cobb is....'

You can find Erdnase in jAck hEnDERSoN....but that I am more on the fence for an Andrews to have a finger pointed.



Yours for the sport is Smiths first illustration for the Down East book.
-RW
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2& ... &safe=1&zw

It's a very interesting idea and some great parallels being drawn. However, if their association was as you describe, why would he go to the lengths of protecting his own identity (as the author) with a false pseudonym but at the same time publish Smith's name (as the illustrator) in full?

[Richard Evans]

Thanks

Fair about the time it took to track down Smith despite the interest in Erdnase.

I've always been uneasy about Smith's poor recollection of illustrating EATCT - despite the years that had passed when Gardner finally located him. Regardless whether or not his first commission, you would have thought that the story 'I once met an ex-gambler in a freezing hotel room and drew his hands while he showed me dozens ways of cheating at cards' to be one that you'd be telling and re-telling at parties for years!

[Leonard Hevia]

I'm reading The Complete Jarrett by Jim Steinmeyer and it says when Jarrett moved to Chicago around 1930:

[…] he had settled in the center of magic activity, a grey stone building at 431 North Clark […] Next door young Laurie Ireland operated the Ireland Magic Company. There, a young lady named Frances had just been hired to help. (Later, as Frances Ireland Marshall, she became much more than a casual observer of magicians.) On the ground floor of the same building was Ed Miller's workshop, where he methodically turned out fine metal props for magicians. Art Felsman's popular Chicago magic shop was just several doors away.

Does anyone know more about when in time this area in Chicago became what could be considered "the center of magic activity"?

A book on the history of magic in Chicago has recently been published:

http://www.magicinc.net/chicagohistoryb ... itter.aspx

[mam]

A book on the history of magic in Chicago has recently been published:

http://www.magicinc.net/chicagohistoryb ... itter.aspx

Nice, but do you know if it has been reviewed in e.g. Genii or Magic? The verified purchase reviews on Amazon are very negative, saying there are a lot of inaccuracies.

[Jonathan Townsend]

A book on the history of magic in Chicago has recently been published:

http://www.magicinc.net/chicagohistoryb ... itter.aspx

Nice, but do you know if it has been reviewed in e.g. Genii or Magic? The verified purchase reviews on Amazon are very negative, saying there are a lot of inaccuracies.

http://www.lakeclaremont.com/#!david-witter/c1lgw

probably more sensible to look for criticism of his other works.

[mam]

https://books.google.com/books?id=xlQDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA14&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0lKsuz1-Ll7z5InpWgCcZzfqOY1w&ci=533%2C692%2C398%2C190&edge=0

Link doesn't work for me, could you do a screenshot and post it instead?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Thanks Sworn Lip(s),
Much enjoying the story as assembled from research
JonT

Maybe someday we will also get a backstory/history for that red imp that shows up on magicians posters.

[Tom Sawyer]

Hi All,

Things seem a little quiet on this thread at the moment, or maybe that is just my imagination. I do understand that Archie Andrews and Dennis Foley have been brought into the discussion, though I’m not sure whether anyone is saying that supports Cobb as a candidate.

Anyway, one topic that probably is not addressed much is the issue of “what makes an Erdnase candidate rise to the top”?

It’s not something I have thought about exhaustively, but it does seem like something that Erdnase enthusiasts should think about from time to time.

Here are a some of the things that occur to me, not necessarily in order of importance::

1. Accessibility of information. The relative sparseness of information on people like Emil Sorensen probably contributes to the lack of interest in him as a candidate.

2. Reputation of a person forwarding a candidate. Anybody suggested by Richard Hatch, for example, is likely to be afforded some credibility from the get-go.

3. Colorfulness of the candidate. R.F. Foster is kinda uninteresting as a candidate. (Not to me, but to most, from what I gather.) Wilbur Edgerton Sander on the other hand is kinda interesting.

4. Traction. For some inexplicable (to me) reason, some candidates, or would-be candidates, just seem to appeal to a lot of people.

5. Publicity. Obviously, people like Milton Franklin Andrews, Edwin Sumner Andrews, and W.E. Sanders have gotten (relatively speaking) huge amounts of analysis and publicity relative to that of most (perhaps all) other candidates.

6. Longevity. A candidate who has managed to hang on for a long time is kind of like mud on a boot -- hard to shake off -- no matter how weak the case. (This is not to say that all candidates who have been around a while have weak cases.)

7. Actual strength of the case. Looked at objectively, it is hard for me to see this as a significant factor in a candidate rising to the top. A candidate at the top may have a strong case, but then again he may not. This is pretty subjective, I guess.

8. Appeal of “the story.” I think some people are swept up by an interesting story that connects known evidence, no matter how implausible that story may be.

Just a few comments.

--Tom Sawyer

[Roger M.]

From a personal perspective, I tend to believe that the timeline laid out by Smith, and his brief meeting with Erdnase are the more likely scenario.

BUT ... yours is a very well laid out case, and honestly ... as a result of your research, your candidate could be seen to be as strong as others brought forward to date.
I say that because I base my belief on the presumed fact that Smith simply told the truth, and I base it that way solely because of the K.I.S.S. principle ... there being no hard evidence other than ones inclination to believe Smith would simply tell it like it is (was).

But again, if the K.I.S.S. principle in this case is indeed wrong, and Smith did know the man he was sketching for well enough to conceal their friendship for his (Smith's) entire life ... you would appear to be first to the post with a candidate that would fit that bill.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I tend to believe that the timeline laid out by Smith, and his brief meeting with Erdnase are the more likely scenario...

Deleting Vernon and Gardner in stating that belief gets me curious. Also the cognitive jump between two reported statements by the artist about the person he met to a belief about the author.

Okay, how about the story in terms of its corroborating evidence in print? How well does the SwornLips(s) history hold up to criteria already used when looking at other candidates?

[Bill Mullins]

Just a thought, for those who would discount Smith's recollections:

A fellow will remember a lot of things you wouldn't think he'd remember. You take me. One day, back in 1896, I was crossing over to Jersey on the ferry, and as we pulled out, there was another ferry pulling in, and on it there was a girl waiting to get off. A white dress she had on. She was carrying a white parasol. I only saw her for one second. She didn't see me at all, but I'll bet a month hasn't gone by since that I haven't thought of that girl.

[Doug Thornton]

One of the best movie lines.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Robert, it would be simpler to make the case directly and chronologically. Where was your candidate in 1900? Where was Smith? What else do we have to look at that was written by your candidate?

On the matter of things people believe they remember... loaded question ... house rules no bets.

Anyway ... it comes to mind to ask what specifically about the time or matter makes it memorable?

[Jack Shalom]

In tribute to memory:


•

Will I ever remember writing this 30 yrs from now? And those of you my same age...will you remember differently?

And then there will be those who remember it exactly how i made you....either by respect, or fear.(smiley-face)

-Robert W

One of my most cherished memories is of meeting Anthony Hopkins backstage at the Broadway production of the play Equus when I was a teen-ager. It was a matinee, and my friend and I sent word that we were high school drama students to the stage manager, and miraculously he let us see Hopkins in his dressing room. I remember well how kind he was, and how he invited the two of us out for a drink in between shows. I was not yet of drinking age, and shy, and so demurred.

Recently, cherishing that memory and wishing to re-live it, I looked up the date of when Hopkins appeared in Equus on Bway. It turns out that even at the earliest possible date I would have been graduated from college, and I was quite capable of negotiating a bar and drinking.

Not sure why I had this false memory. I did see Hopkins in Equus, and I did visit an actor backstage in his dressing room after a Broadway performance when I was in high school, and I must have conflated the events subsequently.

[mam]

It's been very quiet here for a while, so let me grease your Erdnase-nerves a bit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1902-First-Edit ... 2205159030

Pocket change.

[mam]

And also this book that was mentioned in this thread about a year ago:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KID-CANFIELD-GA ... 1912641758

[Brad Jeffers]

Here is an interesting edition ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Expert-At-The-Card-Table-1st-Edition-By-Erdnase-Custom-Aged-Facsimile/291618243050?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Daae0e3d86c5b42f39f89cd69f2335763%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D252205159030

[Bill Mullins]

I know everyone is excited about the Tenyo book, but I got another book in the mail yesterday -- Tom Sawyer's new book on Erdnase. It isn't as big as Tenyoism, but I can lay in bed reading it without being suffocated by it sitting on my chest, which is a plus.

Seriously, it is a good book and it is not sold out (yet). All of Sawyer's other Erdnase books are much more expensive now (and much harder to find) than when they were released.

[Richard Kaufman]

Jack, I saw Richard Burton in Equus on Broadway. I wonder which of us saw the better show?

[mam]

I know everyone is excited about the Tenyo book, but I got another book in the mail yesterday -- Tom Sawyer's new book on Erdnase. It isn't as big as Tenyoism, but I can lay in bed reading it without being suffocated by it sitting on my chest, which is a plus.

Seriously, it is a good book and it is not sold out (yet). All of Sawyer's other Erdnase books are much more expensive now (and much harder to find) than when they were released.

Very much looking forward to it, but mine will be a little longer because of international shipping. Will comment on the book here once I have read it, I hope all of you will too

[Roger M.]

I'm up in Canada, so will likely be reading this in the New Year ... but I'm looking forward to Tom's clarity in a year when the search for Erdnase seemed to wander on and off track a bit.

Really looking forward to reading this Tom!

While waiting for my kids to wake-up this X-Mas morning ... Merry Christmas to all!

[billmccloskey]

"Jack, I saw Richard Burton in Equus on Broadway. I wonder which of us saw the better show?"

I did.

Because when I saw Equus the second time, I was on the stage sitting next to Tony Perkins who played the doctor both times I saw it.

[Richard Kaufman]

How do you know if you didn't see Hopkins or Burton?

[Jack Shalom]

I didn't see Burton, but I did see Hopkins and Perkins. In fact, there's a chance I may have been sitting next to Bill the second time I saw it, because I also sat on stage when Perkins was playing it.

I much preferred Hopkins. Perkins was competent, but I thought miscast. The story of the doctor is of a solid solid man who gets shaken by the forces of Dionysus. Perkins, as an actor, unlike Hopkins, projects weakness and uncertainty in his persona from the get-go. As a result, the arc of his character's story was a lot less interesting than what Hopkins portrayed.

But Erdnase says we should stop horsing around...

[Leonard Hevia]

I'm up in Canada, so will likely be reading this in the New Year ... but I'm looking forward to Tom's clarity in a year when the search for Erdnase seemed to wander on and off track a bit.

Really looking forward to reading this Tom!

While waiting for my kids to wake-up this X-Mas morning ... Merry Christmas to all!

Kids get up at the crack of dawn on Christmas morning Roger! Doubtful you had the time to read Tom's book. Recalls the line from The Who song called Christmas:

Did you ever see the faces of the children they get so excited
Waking up on Christmas morning hours before the winter suns ignited

I'm waiting for my copy of Tom's book. Tom's discussion of the pros and cons of the three main Erdnase candidates looks to be interesting.

[observer]

Jenny Agutter.

[AJM]

Aaah, Jenny Agutter, now you're talking.

Incidentally, did you know she wrote a book on acting under the name R Ettugaj?

[Brad Jeffers]

Aaah, Jenny Agutter, now you're talking.

Aaah indeed.
Jessica 6 ... the poor man's Princess Leia.
Or is it visa versa?

But Erdnase says we should stop horsing around...

Yes, of course. Now where were we?

As I recall, Erdnase was Cobb ... or was it Gallaway? I'm not sure. I'm certain there was something to do with Sherlock Holmes and a Blue Pencil Club. Or was it a green pencil?

Anyway, let's try not to get sidetracked again.

[Brad Henderson]

and with that, the search for Erdnase ended. . .

(thread locked)

[Bill Mullins]

Would you be a werewolf if ca. 1981 Jenny Agutter was your nurse?

Something to consider . . .

[AJM]

Or would you prefer to go walkabout with her in the Australian Outback?

[Bill Mullins]

She was 17 when the skinny dipping scene was filmed. Trouble like that I do not need.

[Ben James 1]

Just some thoughts on the Erdnase topic:
I was thinking outside the box and thought that whoever Erdnase was he changed magic / gambling significantly with his contribution. So much so that it hasn't been equalled up to today. If we apply this type of situation to other fields, would it not be similar to musicians discovering Beethoven or Mozart's music and the never knowing who these people were, where they came from or even looked like.
The same goes for science - imagine all of Einstein's work discovered and no-one knew a thing about him. It would be a phenominal mystery of epic proportions. Not only would musicians / scientists be absolutely amazed by it but so to would the rest of the world.

For those who are more knowledgable about science and music than me, please forgive my ignorance in comparisons. But I'm sure you get the idea of where I am coming from.
Just a thought.

[Roger M.]

Einstein was famous in his lifetime, to the point where he appeared in popular magazines.
Mozart and Beethoven were equally well known in their era, such that they attracted patrons who supported them, and gave performances in large theaters.

In simple terms, they were quite famous while they were still alive.

Erdnase by comparison, worked in total darkness.
In broad terms he was a complete unknown in his day.
It was his book that was eventually noticed - not Erdnase himself as the books author.
Whoever might have known of Erdnase and his talents while he was alive (if indeed anybody really did) they didn't share their knowledge such that time wouldn't erase all evidence of who Erdnase was ... which of course it did.

Further, the book was so limited in its initial distribution, I'm not sure you could say Erdnase had an influence on card cheating when he was alive, and indeed may not have for many years after the printing plates were moved to their assorted future owners.
Not until Vernon shone a light on the book did magicians really pay attention to it, and even then one has to acknowledge that the book was initially seen as so dense that very few magicians actually became accomplished at the sleights contained within (indeed, despite owning a copy, many had never even read it beyond the fist section where Erndase shares his theory on dishonesty and hustling cards.).

And finally, folks who know the history of card cheating well will tell you that overall, many "real" cheats past and present actually don't know who Erdnase is, and have never heard of, and as a result never read EATCT.

Where your point is taken as written, is that the material Erdnase invented and developed in the field of cheating (and to a lesser degree, card magic), is as major an accomplishment in the world of handling playing cards as the works of Einstein, Beethoven, and Mozart are to science and music.

[Jonathan Townsend]

... Erdnase by comparison, worked in total darkness. ...

Albert Einstein - almost the same time as the EACT text. Fine comparison. Thanks.

Vernon's favored teaching book may have accidentally spawned more imaginary authors than the book has illustrations. The reader's nature acts to fill in a vacuum of information about the writer. The presupposed author exists as popular misconception among magicians. Magical thinking meets wish fulfillment. There must have been an author. Rumor has it there was a meeting between a guy who did card moves and an artist.

To write about the author of the text is telling. Do tell. We have modern literature written under pseudonyms. How do they compare with writings done under regular name?

The Chicago history is great reading. Clubs and card cheats. More, please.

[Ben James 1]

My copy of the book is very old and tattered. It is the copy where it has a king of hearts on the front cover and is all yellow in colour. It says "Chicago Frederick J Drake & Co" and 'copyright 1902' but doesn't have a date other than that. Would anyone know what I have please? Is it a first printing? What else should I look for?
It's pretty beaten up so should I have it repaired / restored or are these copies not worth it?

Thanks for the advice.

[lybrary]

How did magicians around the time of Erdnase learn magic?
Did Erdnase read German magic publications directly? (Not via translations we find in books by Roterberg, for example.)

Anybody with an opinion on these questions?